DiY LED - Cree CXA3070

FranJan

Well-Known Member

Castaman

Well-Known Member

grouch

Well-Known Member
It's there any danger running large amounts of light per sq. ft.? My flower area is tiny, 18"w x 12"d x 29"h. I have two cxa-3070 AB with two meanwell hln-80h-42b drivers. I went a little overboard on the lights so I could use them for future upgrades.

I could possibly hook up some co2 if it would help the plants out with high light situations and increase their growth rates. Is there a point that co2 becomes a requirement when heat isn't a problem?

My potential is right about 100w per sq. ft. but I dont plan on pushing them that hard with such limited headroom. I will be training 1-2 plants in 3g fabric pots, one under each light.
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Castaman I use kapton tape to hold 20mm stars and COBs from sliding sideways. Have been doing it for years on hundreds of LEDs and COBs with no problem. It is a controversial technique that avoids drilling your heatsink surfaces. Of course you can simply drill holes and use screws to secure the stars and use COB holders for the CXAs. Nothing wrong with that approach but I believe it is not necessary to get the job done.
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Grouch that is a good question. As you increase the intensity, the efficiency of the COBs will decrease significantly and at the same time photosynthetic efficiency of the canopy will fall. So there is a point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in and there is a value point somewhere. I have used as little as 20W/ft² and some DIYers have used as much as 50w/ft² but none as high as 100 as far as I know so you will be breaking trail if you crank it up. I think some of the 50w/ft² growers have reported some bleaching. I run at about 35W/ft² and I do not get bleaching but I do get white tips on some varieties.
 

happy75

Well-Known Member
Grouch that is a good question. As you increase the intensity, the efficiency of the COBs will decrease significantly and at the same time photosynthetic efficiency of the canopy will fall. So there is a point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in and there is a value point somewhere. I have used as little as 20W/ft² and some DIYers have used as much as 50w/ft² but none as high as 100 as far as I know so you will be breaking trail if you crank it up. I think some of the 50w/ft² growers have reported some bleaching. I run at about 35W/ft² and I do not get bleaching but I do get white tips on some varieties.
Bleaching!! I wondered why my plants were not deep greep. Maybe thats my problem.
 

alef

Active Member
Your questions are understandable. It can be hard to sort through the spec sheet and get a fair comparison from one to another. The 3000K Vero29 may have a warmer color temp than the CXA3070. This is a misrepresentation on the Veros part in my opinion and creates unfortunate confusion. Here is how the 3000K Vero 29 stacks up against the 3000K CXA3070 AB bin (assuming Tj 50C in all cases). 1.4A is a common compromise for a drive current and you can see that at 1.4A they both cost the same/PAR W but the CXA is running at 42% vs the Vero 35.8%. The Vero gives us contradictory vF figures depending on whether you look at the chart or the curve and when I doubt I always assume the worst and go by the minimums, bringing the Vero down to 34.5%.

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Dear Supra, can you please comment point 2? for me it mainly a grey area why, following my logic, led consumes the same as hps? looks like lumens are the same with the same wattage of both. what is oost in my logic?
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
LED bleaching can show up in a pattern with damaged parts and perfectly health and green parts side by side. I have had many plants grow into the light in the vegging room and show this kind of damage


But they can also get very hungry under bright light which would show up as lighter green leaves at the top of the plant (wherever the light is brightest) but darker green leaves in the mid and lower canopy. Hungry leaves can show all sorts of symptoms but there is no point trying to sort through them and figure out exactly what the problem is, I just give them a nitrogen based feeding like EWC and maybe organic chicken manure/guano and maybe some fish hydrolysate and org blackstrap molasses. Then you will see the new growth is healthy and green and some of the pale green leaves will recover.

Then third possibility is true widespread bleaching from overly intense light in the entire upper canopy, even without the plant growing into the lights. Do you have pics of yours Happy?
 

medicinehuman

Well-Known Member
I have a question about a heatsink that I just picked up, it is 8x12x1-1/4" Will it work for 2- Z4 3000K's. Maybe someone with more smarts than me can figure it out.DSCF0061.JPG I'm going to put it in a nice box, with a fan on top if it's feasible.
 

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SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
2) normal hps of 250 watt has 33000 lumens. i need 3 vero 29 to reach same brightness. it results into 240 watt (not taking cooler and loss into the account). of cource the spectrum is different. anything else i need to take into account?
The general argument in favor of LED has become based on directionality and it is a huge issue. The question is, how much of the HPS bulb output actually ends up in the canopy? Because it emits in a 360 degree pattern, 70% or more of its light is headed in the wrong direction and needs to be reflected, possibly several times before reaching the canopy. Each time the photon bounces it has a chance of converting into heat. I estimate that this process consumes 25% of the output of the HPS. Then we also have to consider how much is lost in the glass of the HPS hood, especially if the glass smudged, dusty, dirty, smokey etc. The LEDs on the other hand can be kept very close to the canopy to avoid the need for lenses or reflectors and lose maybe 5% to scattering.

Then there is the argument of spectral efficiency, the idea that the more a plant has to adapt to the spectrum it is given, the less efficient photosynthesis will be. HPS does have a lot of green and yellow output when compared against a 3000K LED, so there may be some advantage there for the LEDs.

Then we have actual efficiency to consider. With a brand new bulb, 600W HPS is about 35% efficient at converting electricity into visible light(150lm/W) (thank you @Richelsdorfite for confirming this). The 250 HPS claims 132lm/W so we could say it starts off at 31% efficient. The build you cited, (3) Vero29s at 240W (2.1A) is about 32% efficient, so that should significantly outyield your HPS in terms of grams/dissipation W, mostly because of directionality. When DIYers ask for advice I recommend the CXA3070 AB at 1.4A which dissipates 52W at 42% efficient. That secures our advantage over HPS and is a knockout in the LED vs HPS argument IMO. That said, some DIY flowering lamps are up to 49% efficient and vegging lamps up to 60% so you can imagine the potential in the future.

And finally we have to consider lumen depreciation. If you are like me then you hate to throw away a working light bulb. So I would let my HPS bulbs age for as long as they wanted and eventually burn out before I would replace them, sometimes 24 months! The bulbs I was using were very cheap and it seemed like they were only performing optimally for one cycle and then yields would severely decline on me. For the record that was very counterproductive on my part.

brand new (600W) HPS bulbs start off at 36% efficient and output drops fast. After 6 months of 12/12 it is down to 31.5%. After 12 months it would be down to 29.5% efficient. Metal Halides have it even worse. That is very encouraging for the economics of LED.
So when you add it all up, what ends up happening is you need many more HPS Watts to get the same job done as high efficiency LED. This results in a potentially very large decrease in canopy heat, which is a huge bonus for electrical usage, stealth and bud quality.
 
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SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
So you have about 3750cm² or 580in². With good active cooling it should be good for 95-100W of dissipation. If it was $29 shipped then it was a good deal, in line with heatsinkUSA prices. Good score!
 
Before I hit the buy button I wanted to seek advice on these drivers from those with more knowledge than I. The plan is to use 2-HLG-185H-C1400A to run 6 3070's in series for a 6 sf flower cabinet and the one I had the hardest time finding/deciding on 1-HLG-60H-C700A to run 2 3070's in series for a 4 sf veg cabinet. But I have a couple of questions.

1. The HLG-60H-C700A, am I reading the datasheet right, this will run the 2 in series right? Or would you recommend something else?
2. To get the HLG-60H to hit 90% efficiency it looks like I need 80% or higher load. figuring load seems pretty straight forward when I look at the driver running at 700 mA. The 2 cob's should pull 68-69 vF across the series for about 69% load but how do I figure the load if the driver is turned down to say 420 mA?
3. If needed, what would you recommend to increase the load or enhance the lights of either side of this cabinet? Smaller white cob's, blues or reds or do I leave as is?
4. These drivers are both internally adjusted, the data sheet shows the HLG-60H adjusts from 420-700 mA, does this mean it is either 420 or 700 mA or is it anywhere within that range?
Just seeking advice and thanks for all the help.
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Yep the HLG-60H-C700A will go up to 100V and a pair of CXA3070s at 700mA should be about 70Vf total. In my experience it is the voltage of the string that allows the driver to reach its upper range of efficiency and there is not much penalty to efficiency when you dim the string. So you could add some Luxeon ES blues (cheap and amazing efficiency 60% at 700mA), maybe some XPE photo reds, maybe some XPL neutrals or cool whites to the string to bump up the string voltage. Here is a very cheap 800mA alternative if you dont think you need dimming and they are 90.5% efficient with a single CXA3070. What color temp of CXA3070s are you planning on? There is a very good bin available for 3000K and 4000K but not 5000K yet.

Another option, you could use the CXA3590 5000K CD bin (50.5% efficienct at 700mA). Not as good of a spread as the pair of 3070s though.

The internal dimmer will allow you to adjust to any current from 420-700mA and it may even give you some extra range above 700mA. Sounds like an awesome project you have planned!

LOL glad it helped @medicinehuman , can't wait to see this thing with the 200mm it will be one a kind!
 
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