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Designing my new gardens

Discussion in 'Grow Room Design & Setup' started by calliandra, Mar 16, 2017.


    ShLUbY Well-Known Member

    i agree with DB... scrapping the curtain seems like the best option to me. Your delayed flowering is definitely from the light leak. I've been helping a friend out with detecting things like that in his garden because his flowering times were taking like 12 weeks, and he was getting those single leaf, reveg looking growth at the apical meristems. We found some major leaks in his door (lack of seal/barrier when the door was closed). if you're able to make out the shape of the plant during the dark photoperiod, it's too much leak. so unless you can resolve that, i'd just scrap the curtain and see what happens :)
    calliandra likes this.
    Richard Drysift

    Richard Drysift Well-Known Member

    It still surprises me how just a small light leak can do so much to mess up a carefully planned grow; especially when outdoors the moon and street lighting seems way more intense. They do need total darkness indoors; like can't see your hand in front of your face level of darkness. I was able to solve my issues by adding more extra thick black/white plastic sheeting. I measured out all the sheeting and left it way too long and wide on purpose to fold them to size and add strips self adhesive Velcro on the sides for access and a rolled up tube taped at the right length to square it up tightly against the floor & door when closed. Then I doubled each sheet and taped everywhere I could for good measure. When lights are off it's pitch black.
    It might be a lot easier to just lose the partition but it is doable if you are persistent. Took me a few tries to get right.
    calliandra likes this.

    calliandra Well-Known Member

    Ah dang, I had my thoughts and questions all written up nicely and concisely, and was just going to add a few pix when my computer crashed *waaah*

    So, again, thanks guys for your insights and illustrations!
    And for confirming my fears regarding leakage as well as light efficiency of that HPS too.

    Independently of everything else I'm strongly tempted to immediately (in fact, tis done!) swap that HPS for my MH bulb. @DonBrennon what you said there reminded me of a factlet I once picked up about the HPS giving off mainly useless yellow light (it was a grow going MH all the way through and explaining why). I definitely was more optimistic about those 150W, hoping it would be closer to "worth" 100W COB than the 50 you're estimating ha!
    Gladly! accepting your offer of those 2 CitiCOBs too!
    I still have those cheap chinese grunge COBs which I'm not even liking for the seedling cabinet anyway, so I can rework those parts for the Citis (I was going to say provisionally, but hey who am I kidding? The heatsinks are just as grungy as the COBs on em, but they have active cooling in addition, so probably I won't be changing them later on... ;) )

    I now understand that to really get the partition adequately sealed off I'll need to build a proper second ceiling into one side, and maybe even add another vent to extract the hot air without light leakage. Anything else would just be a waste of time and resources.

    But I've had a change in plans and will be growing autos in a 2-plant perpetual for the next few months. And given the leaking isn't the only issue, I'm actually all for removing that curtain again, giving the plants that little bit more of space to spread out in, and just letting them run on the same light schedule.
    The question remains, which :bigjoint:

    Taking the autos down to 12/12 right away does leave them with a slightly subpar DLI right when they're developing their buds, plus the large height difference probably cancels out part of the light sharing effect too. So I'm a bit hesitant to flip them to 12/12 just now, especially since I'm really counting on the auto harvest to be a good one.

    Independently of light cycle I'm strongly tempted to immediately (in fact, tis done!) swap that HPS for my MH bulb. @DonBrennon what you said there reminded me of a factlet I once picked up about the HPS being mainly relatively useless yellow light (it was a grow going MH all the way through). I definitely was more optimistic about those 150W, hoping it would be closer to "worth" 100W COB than the 50 you're estimating ha.
    Gladly! accepting your offer of those 2 CitiCOBs too! I still have those cheap chinese grunge COBs which I'm not even liking for the seedling cabinet anyway, so I can rework those parts for the Citis (I was going to say provisionally, but hey who am I kidding? The heatsinks are just as grungy as the COBs on em, but they have active cooling in addition, so probably I won't be changing them later on... lol)

    What do you guys think of this:
    To put them all on 18hrs for another 2 weeks or so (it shouldn't bother the NLH much, seeing as how she hasn't been able to build up any flowering hormones anyway? Please correct me any time I'm fantasizing!) That would give the autos time to build some nice buds, and compensate for the HID's low light intensity with time till all COBs are in place.

    Maybe cut the NLH back by about half and let her re-structure herself. Whereby I am a bit insecure about all the growth down there that would have to grow up to be the new canopy - it's twiggy and stretchy, can that even still be used as basis for a good flowering?
    Or I could try and just train her down (especially those supercropped branches popping back up now) instead..

    The reason why I'm taking issue with that girl's height is that I went back into my pix archives to check on twig development and instead saw how my NLH clones did quite some stretching after having gone into flower - and while I do have the height to accommodate those extra 20cm, that'll still be meters away from the lowest buds, so all that down there is gonna be larf if I leave things the way they are, even with improved lights.

    Actually what I'd like to do most is get the NLH going in a way so I can still spread her branches out more after the Cosmic Queens are harvested - give her the whole closet and let her bloom fully. I'd be prepared to postpone the next auto grow in favor of letting the NLH finish in dignity, not scrunched up in the corner as she has become.

    Does this thinking ring any alarm bells for you all??
    Cheers much! :cool:
    TheStickMan and coreywebster like this.

    ShLUbY Well-Known Member

    i have zero experience when it comes to revegging and reflowering plants, so unfortunately i cannot help you in that department. but to me it would seem it would take more than 2 weeks for the plant to fully recover and figure out just WTF is going on LOL!

    i'm more interested in why someone suggested that HPS has "mainly relatively useless yellow light".... HPS is known for its increased production of red light, which is the main trigger for phytochrome in detecting red and far red light, which is a another rabbit hole in itself that i'll just not get into lol. my point is... if HPS was so "useless"... then there would have been no need to create them for flowering plants. companies would have not spend the time and money and research in producing that product. now im not saying that you can't flower without it... but i do question your factlet about them and i am curious as to the source of this hypothesis.
    calliandra likes this.

    calliandra Well-Known Member

    With "mainly relatively useless yellow light" I meant the yellow spectrum of light is relatively useless (we now know that all spectra play some sort of role, the greens too, which is why there is full spectrum light, but yellow still doesn't belong to those that are most needed for plant growth and flowering), and a large portion of the light produced by HPS is in the yellow spectrum.
    And this within the discussion of my available equipment, again relative to MH, relative to the COBs ;)

    Sorry, I forgot my source!
    That factlet just wafted up from the caves of oblivion like a zombie bride haha
    But when you look at spectral graphs of HPS I bet you can see this yellow bump.

    calliandra Well-Known Member

    Yeah normally I'd think similarly, but seeing she's been on flowering time for almost 4 weeks and has nothing to show for it beyond stretch and a ton of foliage --- she's not really in flowering mode anyway, right ;)
    And if she does get confused and stops growing, all the better, I staked her up today and saw I can easily fill the whole closet with her as she is right now, just by lightly pulling all those long branches apart :D
    I've discarded the idea of cutting her back for now...

    ShLUbY Well-Known Member


    calliandra Well-Known Member

    when I went to look at that hortilux, I also realized my bulbs must be pretty worn out - I did do 3 grows of photoperiods with them.. so they're bound to be even weaker than even Don Brennon supposed...so there's that too! :rolleyes:

    Update on the closet!
    I've scrapped the curtain and fluffed out the NLH and the little CQ too, giving both more space between their branches.
    The lights now
    2018-01-25_back-to-veg (2).JPG

    And I went and asked the plant what she prefers.
    This is how her structure looks
    2018-01-25_back-to-veg (1).JPG

    And rummaging through those tufts of new foliage (to replace those I had so rudely removed, no doubt!), talked to her about the possibilities, and do think I heard her whisper yesss~~~ when I got to thinking about how her branches would spread, filling the whole closet, getting aaalll the lights, to be the most splendid queen tree of all time lol

    So that's what we'll do. She got pulled away from the left wall a bit and staked up, allowing proper air flow throughout. And the CQs benefit from getting a bit more breathing space too.

    2018-01-25_back-to-veg (3).JPG

    I do think it is the most benign solution, giving the autos their full light now, while the NLH waits, and begins prepping up for the day when they're done (I'm thinking in a month). Her wait will be worthwhile, as she then will have all the space and light she could want :weed:

    I just hope the soil holds out!
    Have you guys grown a plant in 56L soil for 7-8 months? I saw she's growing her roots into the mulch now, when I move it aside it's a worm party and all white rootsiness :shock:
    Richard Drysift likes this.

    ShLUbY Well-Known Member

    just topdress some compost and amendments along the way and you'll be totally fine :) . it definitely looks more spacious in there, and they will all be happy about that! and yeah... def time to change that bulb! everything looks great though... but do you even have the space to veg that thing another month and then allow it to stretch when you flip? it already looks huge! haha
    calliandra likes this.

    calliandra Well-Known Member

    I'm relieved that you think it's doable (:
    Yeah actually she is an outdoor girl - had I been able to just cart her outdoors instead of that last defoliation!
    This is definitely the largest plant I've had to now, and in itself an adventure. It's scary, but also lovely!

    I just topped what turned out to be the14 tallest branches. Along with the airier arrangement and the switch back to veg times I hope that gives her something to do for the next two weeks that isn't growing vertically :-P
    And the stretch she'll put on in the last two weeks before she gets more space will still be malleable when the time comes to spread her out.
    At least that's how I'm imagining it at the mo :bigjoint:

    ShLUbY Well-Known Member

    you're gonna have quite the bush there (lol) when it's all said and done. i appreciate a good trim (bwahahahah ok sorry i couldn't resist)
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
    calliandra likes this.

    calliandra Well-Known Member

    LMAO nothing to be said against a benign trim - anywhere! I'd say :-P

    Talking of bushes so much reminds me of a very special one a guy I found on instagram trained up just for fun - the death star! - by lightaddict 420 :bigjoint:
    lightaddict420_deathstar.png lightaddict420_deathstar_instagram.png

    It was what got me thinking of opening up the NLH to accommodate the CQ beside her better. So I've moved the branches to open up a sort of "bay" in her canopy

    2018-01-26_bay-LST (1a).JPG

    2018-01-26_bay-LST (2).JPG

    The only problem with this arrangement being that human access has become rather difficult and is bound to get moreso LOL
    Fun times ahead! :D
    Richard Drysift

    Richard Drysift Well-Known Member

    Yep was thinking that getting in and out of that space is gonna be a challenge once it's filled with plants.
    I've kept mothers in the same pot for awhile; well maybe not 7+ months but for a good long while anyway. This is where teas and topdresses are needed for maintenance. If you need to feed long term you can always add a "spike" which will feed her slowly for months if you can find a spot towards the outside rim of the containers you can push in and let the roots grow around it. You can buy premade organic plant spikes like jobe's brand or even make up your own "spike" recipe. Equal parts blood meal, kelp meal,and alfalfa makes a decent veg spike recipe; I just substitute the alfalfa for fish bone meal to make a flower spike. All you need is a tblspn per container to feed for months at s time.
    Up to this week I had been using the MH for entire growth cycles; seed to harvest. I think the bluer spectrum helps with nutrient absorbtion in an indoor organic grow because it is closer to the suns natural spectrum. What's lacking is UVb. I really liked the results I was getting from the Solistek 10k MH bulb. UVB in the spectrum really frosted them all up nicely but these bulbs don't last very long. Back to running an hps for now.
    I'm impressed with how big your plants get under those COBs. You certainly have more patience than me to train them out so bushy and thick. Amazing job so far!
    calliandra likes this.

    calliandra Well-Known Member

    Thanks! It's the plant's magic, they're just so lovely to have around happy like that, so I do my best to enable that (:

    Interesting your thoughts on the MH! I just remembered I have an otherwise useless voucher for my local grow shop, I could cash in on that and get myself a new bulb, even if I don't use it for long, definitely bound to be a good thing. As for the 10k one, yeah I've seen people swear on it, saying that's what puts the dot on the i for them :mrgreen: Too bad it's so flimsy though eh!
    I just know that I'm very happy with the COBs. So that's what I'm sticking to for as long as they last. Why change a working thing, and also, I soooo hate shopping of all kinds!

    And yes, it makes sense to supplement more as the soil space runs out - it's not that there are no nutes in the soil, I think it has to do more with absorption area of the rhizosphere - more root surface allows for more concurrent nutrient uptake and processing. So accelerating nutrient cycling in the limited space helps keep up with the plant's needs.

    I do think I've gotten that going with the mulches and regular regimen of amendments, which I can just intensify if the need arises. It includes kelp and neem, along with fresh sprouts/leaves/flowers&fruit juices, depending on growth stage, and a bit of humic acid every 2 weeks or so. And with the bean plant having to get cut back every 2-3 days, there's lots of fresh hi-N coming in too 8)
    I'm just starting to harvest a bin of vermicompost. I like to let it cure a bit after harvest to allow fungi to establish, but in 2 weeks it'll be getting good to go too. So I have the feeling I'm all set for the next leg of this adventure haha:bigjoint:
    Cheers much!
    I will update!
    TheStickMan and Richard Drysift like this.

    calliandra Well-Known Member

    An update is in order, not just to stop hijacking other people's threads, but because there has been yet another change in my closet, though temporary: the house intake duct came down again and is blowing a constant 20% RH into it to REDUCE humidity haha

    Yup, too many big /leafy plants in too small a space, humidity in the high 80's with lows in the 60's - with temps not so high at all!

    The Cosmic Queens kept slowing down,.. and down,... and down, and the partial harvest I just did of Sissi, the rightmost plant in the pix, was a cloud of fluff - though yes, totally encrusted in trichs. Can't blame her, she just made the best of what she got, and it was too humid.
    Paired with defoliation at bad times, I really messed her up and it serves me right I'll only be getting like 80g off her. :rolleyes:
    Hoping I have finally learned my lesson about sacrificial plants, the greater good, and such!

    Here some impressions of Queen Sissi in the days before the partial chop at day 77

    She was purpling some, as low temps dipped to around the 15°C mark (I had to air the room alot when the door was closed due to the high humidity being pumped out og the closet - when the room door is open, it actually does function as a giant humidifier for the whole flat!)

    2018-02-20_day77 (1).JPG
    goodness... RIU still making me upload every pic singly :roll:

    2018-02-18_day75-sissi (1).JPG
    2018-02-18_day75-sissi (3).JPG

    2018-02-17_day74-sissi (2).JPG
    2018-02-17_day74-sissi (4).JPG
    a few of the secondaries
    2018-02-17_day74-sissi (6).JPG
    2018-02-17_day74-sissi (7).JPG
    2018-02-17_day74-sissi (8).JPG

    2018-02-17_day74-sissi (9).JPG
    TheStickMan, DonBrennon and ShLUbY like this.

    calliandra Well-Known Member

    After starting to dry, she looked like something a desperate teenager would've brought home, chopped-too-soon-suboptimal-guerilla look lol

    We left most of the sugar leaves on, caked up as they were, making the buds look even shaggier when dry lol

    2018-02-23_sissi-jarred (2d).JPG
    2018-02-23_sissi-jarred (2c).JPG

    2018-02-23_sissi-jarred (7a).JPG

    larf - of which I have tons, the way she had to grow all scrunched up in her tiny 75x45cm corner o_O lol
    2018-02-23_sissi-jarred (2f).JPG
    and the trimmings
    2018-02-20_sissi-partial-harvest (1).JPG
    Yes the day has come, I will be making my first ice hash when the second Cosmic Queen comes down in a week or so!
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
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    ShLUbY Well-Known Member

    she looks dank as hell though. looks like it's gonna be some really nice quality smoke!! I'd smoke that, and I'm a friggin snob! I know how hard it is to cull a plant for the greater good. We become attached :) . Thanks for the update! I have some pro tips for you for ice hash if you want, so let me know before you decide to make it!
    DonBrennon and calliandra like this.

    calliandra Well-Known Member

    Speaking of the second Cosmic Queen, some impressions from yesterday, day 80 from sprout

    2018-02-23_woozy_day80 (1).JPG

    This one is actually getting a bit of a fade on, in a 15L pot on its 3rd run
    2018-02-23_woozy_day80 (3).JPG

    Main cola started purpling just a bit in the past few days
    2018-02-23_woozy_day80-1ary (1).JPG
    2018-02-23_woozy_day80-1ary (2).JPG

    And both of the CQs developed a sort of "main secondaries" from their 2nd node branches

    2018-02-23_woozy_day80-2ndary-left (1).JPG
    2018-02-23_woozy_day80-2ndary-left (2).JPG

    2018-02-23_woozy_day80-2ndary-right (1).JPG
    2018-02-23_woozy_day80-2ndary-right (3).JPG
    I'm letting this one go until day 88, to then decide on her fate - chop or 12/12 alongside the NLH.
    I'm leaning strongly towards chopping now, so there finally can be an end to all this nonsense :bigjoint:
    TheStickMan, DonBrennon and ShLUbY like this.

    ShLUbY Well-Known Member

    Agree, chop that girl and move on to your next run
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    calliandra Well-Known Member

    Yup she's very promising!
    Just dried, she's mainly strong, sweet-hazy-tasting, washes away anxiety and is quite uplifting and allows activity, until you smoke too much of her. :eyesmoke:Which however can happen VERY easily!
    I wouldn't be ashamed to share her with you!
    But she could have yielded (should have yielded) almost twice that, so it's a shame. OTOH I still am happy to have grown out both and gotten to know both phenos - Sissi is more on the hazy side of things, had interesting aromas akin to the whiff of unwashed motorcycle guy who just did work on his engine and took his boots off after lol

    Whilst the other CQ is all fruits - the whole basket, plus almonds!

    And yes, I'll come back on the icehash!
    It's going to be a really rustic affair though, just ice cubes, stirring, letting the hash settle and skimming off the water atop.. no budget for any fancy bags and such :rolleyes:
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