DEFOLIATION . . . . a hands on approach!

skunkd0c said:

genetics and light play the most important role here

while some plants will produce more yield at the top of the plant, with little lower growth
other plants will produce almost equal size colas on every branch only slightly smaller than the main head
plants that are able to produce colas on every branch will suffer if they receive less light on some branches
branches that receive less light are notably smaller than the others in direct light

putting bottom light on a plant that did not genetically produce large colas on each branch, the extra light would not produce colas
the smaller bottom nuggets would become larger and more dense with the extra light
but colas will not form
cola building and bud formation is down to genetics

peace

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what you say is true but genetics and light play the most important role here ?

problem with that is most growers have got a budget, limited space, electric and lots of other problems (heat, noise, ect)

so I have spent years trying to grow my weed as cheap as possible but still keeping the grow room safe, hidden and keeping the running cost low
bearing thing in mind, there a lot of good seeds out there for budget growers but using high powered light in veg is unnecessary and you can use t5's and still get
some great results,

The most important thing IMO is the canopy shape, making sure the canopy is flat well spaced and the canopy fills the room, so your plant make the best of the light they have, getting a large root mass in veg by slightly under watering the plants for a short time a week before flower and a week after as this helps to keep to reduce the stretch

this makes the roots grow fast and slows the top growth down in early flower and then the plants have a large root mass to feed the plants in flower so you pull a good crop

my plain is to pull 14 oz's with less than £120 budget per crop

it works out about £2 to germinate and veg my plants (4 weeks)
and a 600w hps and two fans cost about £54 (8 weeks flower)

basic nutes and soil bio fish mix and bloom cost about £ 25 a crop and replace hps bulb every 3 crops
works out about £120 per crop with upgrading carbon filter ect every 18 mouths

jacksthc said:

what you say is true but genetics and light play the most important role here ?

problem with that is most growers have got a budget, limited space, electric and lots of other problems (heat, noise, ect)

so I have spent years trying to grow my weed as cheap as possible but still keeping the grow room safe, hidden and keeping the running cost low
bearing thing in mind, there a lot of good seeds out there for budget growers but using high powered light in veg is unnecessary and you can use t5's and still get
some great results,

The most important thing IMO is the canopy shape, making sure the canopy is flat well spaced and the canopy fills the room, so your plant make the best of the light they have, getting a large root mass in veg by slightly under watering the plants for a short time a week before flower and a week after as this helps to keep to reduce the stretch

this makes the roots grow fast and slows the top growth down in early flower and then the plants have a large root mass to feed the plants in flower so you pull a good crop

my plain is to pull 14 oz's with less than £120 budget per crop

it works out about £2 to germinate and veg my plants (4 weeks)
and a 600w hps and two fans cost about £54 (8 weeks flower)

basic nutes and soil bio fish mix and bloom cost about £ 25 a crop and replace hps bulb every 3 crops
works out about £120 per crop with upgrading carbon filter ect every 18 mouths

Click to expand...

it roughly cost me £7 to £10 per oz to produce
this is not my main concern or interest
for me, its all about space/time/yield/plant count

i am not that concerned with gpw

i personally consider veg time as wasted time unless they are going to be big plants 1lb +
it is quicker to select hybrids that grow with lots of sativa vigor these plants require little to no veg time, they can grow to 3-4 ft tall from 5 inch clone
and yield 3-5 oz or so in 9 weeks total growing time

stretch is not something to avoid imo it is something to learn how to control and reap the benefit from all that extra vigor
the stretch is the fastest growing period of a cannabis plant

i agree about canopy control , getting the colas into direct light helps
experimenting with filling the space with different numbers of plants also helps
more plants will fill the space quicker, more plants will also produce a higher percentage of thicker branches/colas
than fewer plants covering the same space

if yield is the main concern, i find overfilling the space with plant numbers and then cutting away all the weaker growth
is the fastest way to pack a space with only colas

peace

I am done with growing this year! However, im still stuck with 2 super bushy quad top afghani girls 35 days old at 27" from the stem in 10 gallon organic pots. I am willing to defoliate and give it a try if anyone can walk me through it, ill post my progress , pics ect. Just dont criticise my ways, as i veg and flower in my own soil mix and ONLY use tap water throught veg and flower

skunkd0c said:

it roughly cost me £7 to £10 per oz to produce
this is not my main concern or interest
for me, its all about space/time/yield/plant count

i am not that concerned with gpw

i personally consider veg time as wasted time unless they are going to be big plants 1lb +
it is quicker to select hybrids that grow with lots of sativa vigor these plants require little to no veg time, they can grow to 3-4 ft tall from 5 inch clone
and yield 3-5 oz or so in 9 weeks total growing time

stretch is not something to avoid imo it is something to learn how to control and reap the benefit from all that extra vigor
the stretch is the fastest growing period of a cannabis plant

i agree about canopy control , getting the colas into direct light helps
experimenting with filling the space with different numbers of plants also helps
more plants will fill the space quicker, more plants will also produce a higher percentage of thicker branches/colas
than fewer plants covering the same space

if yield is the main concern, i find overfilling the space with plant numbers and then cutting away all the weaker growth
is the fastest way to pack a space with only colas

peace

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sounds like you buy 5" clones and fill the room which is great and you would pull a good yield in 9 weeks
I live in the UK so I take cutting, root, veg and train them till there 5-6" high so its not a lot different to your 5" clones
don't like the ideal of buying clones as someone know how many plants you have and a good ideal when harvest is
also when I have to pay £5 for a 2" healthy rooted clone, it a lot of money when you buy a loads of them

also like to keep my plant count to a minimal,

stretch is just that, if not controlled the long node spacing can make the buds grow long and thin and the canopy becomes unlevel

with too much space between each cola

I like doing a perpetual grows from start to finish

SPLFreak808 said:

I am done with growing this year! However, im still stuck with 2 super bushy quad top afghani girls 35 days old at 27" from the stem in 10 gallon organic pots. I am willing to defoliate and give it a try if anyone can walk me through it, ill post my progress , pics ect. Just dont criticise my ways, as i veg and flower in my own soil mix and ONLY use tap water throught veg and flower

Click to expand...

sounds great I would be willing to talk you through it

jacksthc said:

sounds like you buy 5" clones

Click to expand...

i live in the UK also, i am not sure why you would assume that i "buy clones"

shall i assume that you buy weed and pretend to grow it ?

tut tut, lol

skunkd0c said:

i live in the UK also, i am not sure why you would assume that i "buy clones"

shall i assume that you buy weed and pretend to grow it ?

tut tut, lol

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sorry skunkd0c that I assume that you buy clones as it didn't sound like you have a veg room with mother plants or taking cutting and vegging them till you start the next crop, so where do you get your clones from ?

this is the comments that made me think you by clones

"i personally consider veg time as wasted time unless they are going to be big plants 1lb +"
"select hybrids that grow with lots of sativa vigor these plants require little to no veg time, they can grow to 3-4 ft tall from 5 inch clone"

jacksthc said:

sorry skunkd0c that I assume that you buy clones as it didn't sound like you have a veg room with mother plants or taking cutting and vegging them till you start the next crop, so where do you get your clones from ?

this is the comments that made me think you by clones
"i personally consider veg time as wasted time unless they are going to be big plants 1lb +"
"select hybrids that grow with lots of sativa vigor these plants require little to no veg time, they can grow to 3-4 ft tall from 5 inch clone"

Click to expand...

Hmm, selecting hydrids would indicate i am selecting from seed and selecting my own preferences from those phenotypes ?

i have never bought clones

here is some clones rooting





peace

you clones look really good man but hybrids and clones in the same sentence, Hmm don't really make me think of seeds sound like your picking the best clones based on there look (sativa vigor )

selecting phenotypes from a pack of seeds, you need to take cutting in veg and flower them off to find the best phenotype

sound like you picking the best looking seedling out a pack of seeds ( done a few times my self)

jacksthc said:

hybrids and clones in the same sentence,

Click to expand...

I do not know what you mean by this ?

jacksthc said:

you need to take cutting in veg and flower them off to find the best phenotype

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you do not need to take cuttings from seed plants to flower them , you can flower the seed plants themselves

skunkd0c said:

I do not know what you mean by this ?
select hybrids that grow with lots of sativa vigor these plants require little to no veg time, they can grow to 3-4 ft tall from 5 inch clone



you do not need to take cuttings from seed plants to flower them , you can flower the seed plants themselves

Click to expand...

yer when selecting phenotypes from a pack of seeds

grow the plant from seed and take 3 cutting in veg and tag them so you know what clone comes off which plant and flower them off

keep notes on each plant

how well the cutting rooted,
how healthy the plant is
how much the plant yielded
the quality of the buds

and then decide which plant is the best from your notes, take cutting off the best phenotypes and flower them off

now you have the best phenotypes out of a pack of seeds

jacksthc said:

yer when selecting phenotypes from a pack of seeds

grow the plant from seed and take 3 cutting in veg and tag them so you know what clone comes off which plant and flower them off

keep notes on each plant

how well the cutting rooted,
how healthy the plant is
how much the plant yielded
the quality of the buds

and then decide which plant is the best from your notes, take cutting off the best phenotypes and flower them off

now you have the best phenotypes out of a pack of seeds

Click to expand...

i do something similar, i grow the plant from seed usually until preflower, i will take a single cutting from each plant showing female preflowers
i will remove any plants showing male preflowers

i will continue flowering the seed plants, this is quicker than rooting cuttings and flowering the cuttings as you suggested

i will keep a cutting from each plant, when the plants are about 5-6 weeks into flower i can tell if some of the plants will be unsuitable
due to lack of vigour or lack of early bud development etc i will discard these cuttings and keep only the cuttings from plants that are vigorous through all stages of growth
i am not a fan of runt genetics

sometimes i only veg for 3 weeks from seed, this is too early to detect preflowers so i will take cuttings during early flower
of those plants that are female, usually during week 2-3 of flower

peace

sorry mate probable the way i worded it

often i have grown plants from seed to flower
I take the cutting in late veg and tag them so I don't lose the phenotype in case its a good plant

some people re veg the best plants but it takes a long time to veg and I think it can affect the plants (could be wrong) reducing the quality of the plant and the yield

taking clones 5-6 weeks into flower so your a fan monster cropping (quick rooting but takes a while for the plants leaves to grow normal but it would give you a really good yield)

I dropped my seeds in a cup of water on the 14 July, they dropped in a few hours and germinated in a few days I was very lucky and now they have been in veg for 27days and I have just switched them over to flower

I topped them once and removed a lot of leaves to control the way they grew so I did not need to lst them, would not have been easy in the veg cab

here the plants on the last day of veg

I can help with this and teach you boys and girls some very important things about defoliation and how to get the most from it. Why should we listen to you rev ? Good question. Ole rev here has done it all. Killed more trees learning them than the d.e.a. and when you murderlize these trees in the true quest of learning, you learn indeed. Now, you have heard all of the solar panel debate and why defoliation should not be done. You have heard those that have also claimed success and I know one in particular that's defoliated for 25 years and he's been on forums for years preaching it. Gets consistent 2 pounds of bud from 4 trees horizontal 400 hid light 48 in above 32 in bushes. However, he has not or anyone I know of shared proper timing and that's what I'll do for the willing and you will never turn back if done right and you'll have complete understanding. I'm not going to write a book on all the how's and why's for the in tolerate reader, I will give it to you straight. Do not pluck your fan leaf, until your fan leaf has produced a bud site. Once you see the budsite extend far enough out to produce its own set of fan leaves, then you pluck the fan leaf. Once the new extended branch has started to produce secondary branches from its pair of fan leaves, pick those. Follow that course and you will not go wrong and increase yields and quality. You will do less defoliation, the more light you use. Less light, more defoliation. Try not for third branch sites as you may get too much and risk bud being overly crowded " believe it lol " by the time you defoliate most of the bush for secondaries at proper timing for your particular light, you will have plenty bush to impress and especially flowering vertical, after being trained and properly defoliated in veg. If you pull leaves before they have made a branch, they will stunt and not grow for weeks and growers who have done this, give unfortunately, this wonderful tool a bad name. Here's just a quick example of a master kush 4ft tall we defoliated and now being flowered. Experienced eyes can see a trees potential in flower , when looking at a veg bush like this. One love, ,.....rev.thenaturalone more thing, keep your veg lights higher than most. All this stacking nodes stuff, works against you, unless doing some kind of sea of green strategy. Got to let them stretch well in veg and defoliate to get your yields. These techniques and understandings, will allow you to flower with a couple 400 hid and get pounds of bud, however you stack nodes too close and not allow for proper stretch in yields, you figure why so many do not make their goals. Seen seven foot trees with 4-5 nodes throw down 2-3 pounds of bud. Go figure..

I do have complete understanding of defoliation, just not great with words and explaining how to do this lol
never seen any grower on any form train there plants the way I do

could you send me some links of the one in particular that's defoliated for 25 years

jacksthc said:

sorry mate probable the way i worded it

often i have grown plants from seed to flower
I take the cutting in late veg and tag them so I don't lose the phenotype in case its a good plant

some people re veg the best plants but it takes a long time to veg and I think it can affect the plants (could be wrong) reducing the quality of the plant and the yield

taking clones 5-6 weeks into flower so your a fan monster cropping (quick rooting but takes a while for the plants leaves to grow normal but it would give you a really good yield)

I dropped my seeds in a cup of water on the 14 July, they dropped in a few hours and germinated in a few days I was very lucky and now they have been in veg for 27days and I have just switched them over to flower

I topped them once and removed a lot of leaves to control the way they grew so I did not need to lst them, would not have been easy in the veg cab

here the plants on the last day of veg


View attachment 3481707

Click to expand...

i would not take cuttings as late as 6 weeks, i would take them at 2-3 weeks from middle to lower branches that are less into the flowering stage than the more developed upper branches
these cuttings will only have a few pistils, they root in the same amount of time and do not grow back distorted like a rejuvenated plant (monster)

this is what my seedlings typically look like at around 19 to 21 days
if i flower seedlings when they are this size, i will wait until they grow before i take any cuttings
they will be big enough to spare cuttings at 2-3 weeks of flower
if i take cuttings too early in veg i wiil have plants to keep alive while i wait for the seed plants to finish flowering
if i take the cuttings at about 2-3 weeks flower it all times out perfectly, so that my next lot of cuttings are ready to flower
without having to be pruned to much to keep them small while they are waiting










peace

Rev.thenatural said:

I can help with this and teach you boys and girls some very important things about defoliation and how to get the most from it. Why should we listen to you rev ? Good question. Ole rev here has done it all. Killed more trees learning them than the d.e.a. and when you murderlize these trees in the true quest of learning, you learn indeed. Now, you have heard all of the solar panel debate and why defoliation should not be done. You have heard those that have also claimed success and I know one in particular that's defoliated for 25 years and he's been on forums for years preaching it. Gets consistent 2 pounds of bud from 4 trees horizontal 400 hid light 48 in above 32 in bushes. However, he has not or anyone I know of shared proper timing and that's what I'll do for the willing and you will never turn back if done right and you'll have complete understanding. I'm not going to write a book on all the how's and why's for the in tolerate reader, I will give it to you straight. Do not pluck your fan leaf, until your fan leaf has produced a bud site. Once you see the budsite extend far enough out to produce its own set of fan leaves, then you pluck the fan leaf. Once the new extended branch has started to produce secondary branches from its pair of fan leaves, pick those. Follow that course and you will not go wrong and increase yields and quality. You will do less defoliation, the more light you use. Less light, more defoliation. Try not for third branch sites as you may get too much and risk bud being overly crowded " believe it lol " by the time you defoliate most of the bush for secondaries at proper timing for your particular light, you will have plenty bush to impress and especially flowering vertical, after being trained and properly defoliated in veg. If you pull leaves before they have made a branch, they will stunt and not grow for weeks and growers who have done this, give unfortunately, this wonderful tool a bad name. Here's just a quick example of a master kush 4ft tall we defoliated and now being flowered. Experienced eyes can see a trees potential in flower , when looking at a veg bush like this. One love, ,.....rev.thenaturalView attachment 3481714one more thing, keep your veg lights higher than most. All this stacking nodes stuff, works against you, unless doing some kind of sea of green strategy. Got to let them stretch well in veg and defoliate to get your yields. These techniques and understandings, will allow you to flower with a couple 400 hid and get pounds of bud, however you stack nodes too close and not allow for proper stretch in yields, you figure why so many do not make their goals. Seen seven foot trees with 4-5 nodes throw down 2-3 pounds of bud. Go figure..

Click to expand...

2-3 weeks in flower is a great time to take clones and more often than not its when i get round to taking them, I try to take them in late veg but it don't happens very often lol

you have some very healthy plants there in veg
I like to get my plants really wide in veg so I can keep my plant count down so a long veg is not a problem for me

this plant had some leaves removed throughout its growth 5 weeks veg under MH
and 8 weeks flower under hps it is a vigorous skunk/sativa dominated phenotype that has a large stretch during flower
yield was 28 oz the plant was 4.5 feet tall 3.5 feet deep and 5 ft wide

the leaf removal is for my piece of mind i would not claim that it improved the yield
also i attempt to keep as many leaves on the plant as i can handle looking at
overall i did not remove as many leaves as i would from some phenos as they are naturally more leafy to start with

i do not like having colas or the middle of a plant in any kind of shade, i will remove lower growth leaves and branches
to allow the light to fall more evenly over the canopy hitting as much surface area of green as possible




peace

Go under the top

jacksthc said:

I do have complete understanding of defoliation, just not great with words and explaining how to do this lol
never seen any grower on any form train there plants the way I do

could you send me some links of the one in particular that's defoliated for 25 years

Click to expand...

Go under the topic in google and you'll find him in older posts. Always 4 trees under a 400 hid. Can't miss him...rev

skunkd0c said:

this plant had some leaves removed throughout its growth 5 weeks veg under MH
and 8 weeks flower under hps it is a vigorous skunk/sativa dominated phenotype that has a large stretch during flower
yield was 28 oz the plant was 4.5 feet tall 3.5 feet deep and 5 ft wide

the leaf removal is for my piece of mind i would not claim that it improved the yield
also i attempt to keep as many leaves on the plant as i can handle looking at
overall i did not remove as many leaves as i would from some phenos as they are naturally more leafy to start with

i do not like having colas or the middle of a plant in any kind of shade, i will remove lower growth leaves and branches
to allow the light to fall more evenly over the canopy hitting as much surface area of green as possible

View attachment 3481746 View attachment 3481747 View attachment 3481748 View attachment 3481749 View attachment 3481750 View attachment 3481751 View attachment 3481752 View attachment 3481753 View attachment 3481755

peace

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Beautiful absolutely. Also see the lowland Oaxaca in your strain. Lol, that helps in yield as the lowland ox, is the largest of all. Stretchy Sativa's will fair much better with this technique. Indica's not as much. We grow pure tropical Sativa's we have collected for years. Defoliation and vertical lighting has made the most wild and crazy beast Sativa's put out huge bud in a much smaller package. Takes time to learn, however well worth the effort. Love the concentration of bud that can amass in smaller packages, when done correctly of course. Outside trees respond unreal to proper plucking. In time outside growers will eventually learn this and increase yields insane. Torpedo size buds. Would recommend to a advanced grower like yourself to use hid for flowering also. Many misunderstandings about the proper ripening of this tree from 40 years of bad understandings that I also once supported as truth and its not. I'm inspired to share something with you and the rest is on you as I never debate info, if I've applied and know it to be true. Cannabis has three stages of ripening. As it goes through these stages and chemical changes, it does not degrade in THC, it starts to produce true cannabinoids that are the ultimate healers and mind stimulators. I know. I was 340 pounds and dying of disease and spiritual corruption. What I was led by was not of this world but the power that made us all. This tree has a history that most know nothing about and that means those who are wonderful growers as yourself and others who have even studied it for decades. For seven years now, I have only shared with those I'm face to face with as it gives opportunity to heed or not, freewill. I share this with you and everyone with humility and those who have learned have lived, when they thought like me, that they would not. Cannabis is a fruit and because we don't understand the truth of evolution, we don't see the wisdom tree for what it still is...as me and you are no longer giants..hmm. When you cut it THC green, you are eating green bananas and most are not even truly rich in THC when they cut and I'm talking about the experienced. People tell me " I see red trichomes when I cut so its ripe." Nope, your not even fully ripe in THC until the tree itself, starts turning brownish red. The red trichomes that most say they see is the fools gold that shows on the hairs and sucker leaves way before it is even ripe truly in THC. When the tree itself turns color and all trichomes start showing red, the true production of pure cbd begins and it is the best inflammatory in the world but must be ripened for and nobody gets it. You also have to feed well at this stage as the second stage of ripening not only produces pure cbd, but will also produce 50% more bud mass. Now hold on brother. Once all your trichomes have turned blood red and the whole tree turns a beautiful red also, you have completed second stage ripening of this fruit. Now within a week or so, you will notice the tree will start to produce golden trichomes and within a few weeks the whole pineapple will turn gold and more beautiful than any of you could ever dream. Then you have produced CBN/cbg and oils and medicines made from these chemicals destroy disease instantly or I'd be dead right now. Now, HP's will not properly ripen cannabis. Cannabis has to die now in its cursed evolutionary state in order to heal completely and quickly. Lights with high nanometers of red like HP's, will not properly ripen this fruit through its stages. Cannabis did not evolve under a red/orange winter spectrum. Tropic of cancer and equator and high mountain regions have more than just high uva/uvb in common, the spectrum of the sun in those areas is also high blue nanometers of 420-480. Hid, is the only light that will properly ripen them and give superior quality. After a three year study, we used every bulb on the market. Did you use the expensive ones? Yes, we used them all first. All. In the end what did the plants show? Not some meter or junk equipment that means squat. The trees would ripen correctly under any and all hid bulbs and even the cheapest Phillips, would give more potent and higher quality bud than the HP's of the most expensive brands. I'll name a few: hortilux super HP's blue, solistek, plantmax, solarmax, red diamond, and many others. Honestly, the plantmax HP's outperformed all of them with only downfall being cheaper built. Now, what was the best hid? The best bulb for growing cannabis or any tropical plant that we now use, is the Hamilton Beach 14000k aquarium bulb in the 400 watt. The trees go nuts and in combination with compost tea, the medicine is to strong to smoke, period. How long for the stages I'm asked by those I share with. Depends on genetics, a long haul for most. A hybrid sativa at 80% under a 600-1000 watt light, will take 16 weeks average to even be truly ripe in the first stage and that's one tree getting it all. This information will soon explode god tells me and the tree will be free and so will we. I've read all the papers and most are garbage. My students always say; " you teach the opposite of everyone else and you charge nothing." Indeed the truth is free, we just have to be humble to hear or we miss the boat. Try it and you will know that I have shared truth and then you will share with others. Those who brought that tree thousands of years ago...are awakening. Deep stuff rev, ya I know brother, but it is written " in the last days, all men will know the truth of their creator and the creation and not one man, will have to seek another for that truth." Let it begin and all will be all in one. Rev.thenatural