Cytokinins (6-BAP) & Auxins (IAA)

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indiapale

Member
My experiences have not been favorable.

With the GA3 the plants grew rapidly but were nothing more than stem and small leaves. It was however interesting to watch them grow several inches in a day.

With the BAP, the first time it developed plants that were short and stalky with very large stems and stunted vertical growth.

Both of these experiments were conducted one week prior to flowering stage with a single spraying allowing one week of vegetative growth.

The results were very disappointing. I recently tried an application of GA3, BAP, and IBA. The plants immediately exhibited significant leaf curl and subsequently perished within a few days.

I have since concluded that it was not the application rate but the volume of solution that I prepared. In order to dissolve the BAP in water you need to use sodium hydroxide "lye". The amount of lye I used followed by a small amount of solution is what caused the demise of the test plants. I fried them plain and simple. That won't happen again.

I have some cucumbers that I sprayed with a very small dose of GA3 and they are growing pretty fast and they look very good. I think different plants are going to react very differently. Some may not benefit at all from any of this.
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
indiapale said:
My experiences have not been favorable.

With the GA3 the plants grew rapidly but were nothing more than stem and small leaves. It was however interesting to watch them grow several inches in a day.

With the BAP, the first time it developed plants that were short and stalky with very large stems and stunted vertical growth.

Both of these experiments were conducted one week prior to flowering stage with a single spraying allowing one week of vegetative growth.

The results were very disappointing. I recently tried an application of GA3, BAP, and IBA. The plants immediately exhibited significant leaf curl and subsequently perished within a few days.

I have since concluded that it was not the application rate but the volume of solution that I prepared. In order to dissolve the BAP in water you need to use sodium hydroxide "lye". The amount of lye I used followed by a small amount of solution is what caused the demise of the test plants. I fried them plain and simple. That won't happen again.

I have some cucumbers that I sprayed with a very small dose of GA3 and they are growing pretty fast and they look very good. I think different plants are going to react very differently. Some may not benefit at all from any of this.
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What concentrations were you using?

The only benefit I have read about GA having (that other available hormones don't) is that it can help initiate flowering.. This could be handy if it for instance allowed you to flower using longer light cycles or if you use IBA (in place of IAA) to find that it stunts flowering (which has been speculated to me), however the versicle growth it also triggers would have to be addressed. I think the BAP or Triacontanal might serve to counteract this affect..

I have a feeling that the BAP may also have to be used in much lower concentrations than I have tested so far (or tends to be recommended) like 100-200ppm (maybe less) but applied more regularly (affording you more control over the extent of its affects) Otherwise used in conjunction with with Auxins like IAA/IBA or maybe a low concentration of GA?

In my first experiment I too had to use Lye to dissolve BAP, the resulting solution had a PH over 10 and required ounces of cirtic acid to correct..

There is a ratio that once found should strike a balance:
for so much of X you need this much Y to control the node spacing in the detection you want (otherwise a portion of z can be used)..
I figure once that's reached at lower concentrations you can spray with greater/lesser frequency to maintain finer control over things, otherwise adjust the concentration up for the single feeding right at the beginning of flowering.

Its my understanding that there is a different ideal ratio for every plant (and what you want it to do) this ratio is what has to be ironed out to reap the full benefits of the hormones. Unfortunately most the papers I've read were for cereal crops, or fruiting plants.
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
potpimp said:
It appeared to me also that the dosage was too high - typical of companies wanting to sell more product, even if they kill your plants. With this effect on your plants you're not going to get bigger buds for sure. I would scale down the experiment until I got it dialed in more.
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I think I'm going to take the remaining gallon of my test solution and dilute it 4:1 (basically put it in a 5 gal jug and top off with water) That will get things pretty close to where it seems they should be.. Actually I might have to add just a hint of IAA (or IBA) to get back to my old speculative ratio..

Keep in mind I still have the GA3 so if it looks like my plants have completely stalled I can always give them a dose of that to re-initiate flowering (and stretch)
 
I

indiapale

Member
I think using the IBA helps with the root development during the accelerated growth that the GA3 causes. You would think that a plant would benefit the most during the first few weeks of vegetative stage with a mild dose of the components. That could possibly give you plants at three weeks that would normally take five. That's the biggest benefit I can see. But that's quite a lot right there and can be applied across the spectrum to a wide variety of plants.
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
indiapale said:
I think using the IBA helps with the root development during the accelerated growth that the GA3 causes. You would think that a plant would benefit the most during the first few weeks of vegetative stage with a mild dose of the components. That could possibly give you plants at three weeks that would normally take five. That's the biggest benefit I can see. But that's quite a lot right there and can be applied across the spectrum to a wide variety of plants.
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I think you are right, and ideally you could find a hormone coctail that could work through the entire cycle, otherwise develop 2-3 covering every stage from rooting (strait forward) to vegging and flowering..

I think the GA will land around that of your Auxin (i'm thinking in the 10-50ppm range with the BAP about 10 times the amount (speculatively speaking anyway)
 
I

indiapale

Member
Interesting thread. I'm planning on trying the GA3 on a Banana. I have several pups I need to remove from the main plant. It will be interesting to see how they respond.
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
indiapale said:
Interesting thread. I'm planning on trying the GA3 on a Banana. I have several pups I need to remove from the main plant. It will be interesting to see how they respond.
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I just cant believe we are the only 2 that can see enough benefit in this to experiment and try to figure it out...
 
I

indiapale

Member
Guile said:
I think you are right, and ideally you could find a hormone coctail that could work through the entire cycle, otherwise develop 2-3 covering every stage from rooting (strait forward) to vegging and flowering..

I think the GA will land around that of your Auxin (i'm thinking in the 10-50ppm range with the BAP about 10 times the amount (speculatively speaking anyway)
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I was thinking something similar. Reducing both the GA3 and the BAP with a higher ratio of BAP to GA3. I think the levels of IBA should be in the 50-75 ppm range. Maybe less is more?
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
indiapale said:
I was thinking something similar. Reducing both the GA3 and the BAP with a higher ratio of BAP to GA3. I think the levels of IBA should be in the 50-75 ppm range. Maybe less is more?
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According to my distincter you may be able to get away with twice that, they say you can put up to 150ppm in your cloning machine (though I think 50 might be better advised there too), Keep in mind it might also be easier to recover if it turned out you get the ratio wrong... I really should have steeped back and considered that before going to the higher recommendations made by the distributor..

I have read that using IAA in conjunction with IBA (for cloning anyway, its usually used 2:1 favoring IBA)

Perhaps something like 10-20ppm IAA, 20-40ppm IBA, and 10-20 GA assuming you plan on using like 200-400ppm BAP and you sill might want to add 1-10ppm Triacontanal if you experience too much stretching. (though the high relative ratio of BAP to GA might keep that in check)
Maybe add 100-200ppm Fulvic acid, 1ppm B vitamins, and 200-400ppm of your "bloom" nutrient solution of choice from there its just little Kentucky windage to find the "ideal ratio" biased on the growth characteristics displayed.


In fact I just diluted/adjusted my original test batch to apx:
1 drop/gal Superthrive (B vitamins)
2ppm Triacontanal
20ppm IAA
20ppm IBA
20ppm GA3 (Probibly would have gone lower but I couldn't take the Triacontanal out and this keeps things easy to remember)..
200ppm Falvic Acid
200ppm GH flora series nutrients
250ppm 6-BAP

And just did my best to spray the second row on each table without getting the first row again.. Hope this doesn't ruin half my crop... If this is still too much I figure I can always cut it in half again..
 
A

Afka

Active Member
Wheres the pics and side-by-side tests !?

For once there's an interesting thread in this subforum :D
 
D

drewbot

Member
The problem with finding solid answers with these hormone cocktails is that small causes give rise to large effects, especially when pairing hormones. Most of the literature on this subject tests only one or two hormones at different concentrations.

The only helpful things I can add today are (1) for rooting try 4:1 IBA:NAA and (2) try TDZ for shoot induction, proliferation, and stem width. Tossing all that stuff together is going to have lockout or competitive binding situation most likely. Hard to say for sure.
 
OGEvilgenius

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
If this works like steroids, perhaps there might be the same problem where natural production of some of these hormones might slow down or stop?
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
drewbot said:
The problem with finding solid answers with these hormone cocktails is that small causes give rise to large effects, especially when pairing hormones. Most of the literature on this subject tests only one or two hormones at different concentrations.

The only helpful things I can add today are (1) for rooting try 4:1 IBA:NAA and (2) try TDZ for shoot induction, proliferation, and stem width. Tossing all that stuff together is going to have lockout or competitive binding situation most likely. Hard to say for sure.
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I agree that I am dealing with a far more complicated hormone cocktail than any I have read about so far. Obviously this makes it more difficult to determine the individual effects of any individual component of the cocktail (though those seem to be relatively well documented already).

I plan to constantly adjust my formulation biased on the results I see and the affects I have read about for comparison. (in retrospect however I would have liked to run another test group omitting the Triacontanal and IBA as I have some suspicion they might be slowing the flowering of my plants)
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
Afka said:
Wheres the pics and side-by-side tests !?

For once there's an interesting thread in this subforum :D
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Sorry I hav no pictures to share (only camreas I have are an old webcam and a bunch of 35mm's with not film).

Even my side-by-side tests are conducted with relatively loose set of standards (I experience noticeable deviation in growth of many plants biased on light distribution alone). however both test plants and their relative pear share a row on the same table.

However I'm just addressing this with an eye on relative improvement. Once I get an ideal ratio down I might conduct other tests with my best effort to make all other conditions consistently ideal as well (I just don't have the money right now to ensure the most even distribution of the highest light concentrations so I work with what I have until that changes).

I'm just laying down a starting point for others to begin their experimentation from.. I have no illusions of being the person that gets everything figured out perfectly, I'm just the guy that makes you think "if this idiot can do it, I can do it better.."
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
The first test row sprayed with a solution containing the distributor recommended concentrations of each the hormones they provided.

The leafs curled (In different directions) then these plants essentially stalled. On the most mature plants exposed to this high concentration of hormones The very top flower took on a strange appearance developing what looked like extremely fat short hairs.
Also there was an incredible density of bud leafs in the flower.. I speculate this is a product of the high levels of Triacontanal and 6-BAP

I recently diluted the original 1gallon test batch into a 5galon "second test batch" and added IBA and GA3 in hopes of correcting the hormone imbalance which is within reasonable margins of accuracy :

1 drop/gal Superthrive (B vitamins)
2ppm Triacontanal
20ppm IAA
20ppm IBA
20ppm GA3 (Probibly would have gone lower but I couldn't take the Triacontanal out and this keeps things easy to remember)..
200ppm Falvic Acid
200ppm GH flora series nutrients
250ppm 6-BAP

I basically sprayed both the first and second rows (I made an effort to focus on the second but it was just impossible to completely avoid the first).

This is the point in which I had a way to offer you pictures... Both the first and second rows had made a noticeable improvement in 24hours. Though many of the more mature plants in the first row developed a condition on main stem where it has become swollen and bumpy almost like was damaged and/or is trying to develop roots.. At 48 hours it has become impressive..

The mutant flowers on the most mature plants of test 1 have stretched a bit making them look far more natural though the hairs still look short they are very densely packed together.

Though there are still some curled leaves they are all curling in the same direction and many seem to be curled to a lesser extent. Less mature plants have perhaps shown the best results becoming darker green and giving explosive growth over the last 2 days..

No Joke, you know how some plants just pack on the biomass really fast at some stage in their development? (Either roots, stretch, or flowers) so much so that you can actually see the difference from day to day? That seems to be whats going on with the mid to moderately aged plants..

The youngest seem to be relatively unaffected, they have been having a hard time developing roots for a while (I think its because of the grow rooms low temperatures I think I'm shocking their roots) They have had over a week in their new 5" net pots (full of hydrotron) and roots are just becoming noticeable tonight the bottoms but its about damn time for that anyway. They are all pretty pale and unhappy looking... I hope I don't have to start heating their res..

The plants seem to be using alot more nutrient solution and leaf development at the top of the plants is impressive but nothing looks as though it is developing more flowers at the same rate..
I think for the next test the concentration will be half my current rate (I think then the concentrations will be such that they could be applied regularly to maintain consistent growth.
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
One of my biggest concerns has begun to ease.. There is identifiably new flower development at the tops of my most mature plants (longer more natural looking hairs are springing up). So the Triacontanal and/or IBA have not completely stalled flowering.

However the plants seem to be focusing most their growth in upper leaf development. The new leafs are beautiful and lack the curl of many the leafs that have been exposed to the hormone mixtures tested so far.

I feel that the concentration of hormones might still be a little high. I plan to cut the concentration of my hormone solution (a gallon if it anyway) in half again before applying it to the next test row however I am going to wait until the explosive growth brought on by test batch 2 subsides (as its next to impossible to avoid over spray on the nearer plants front 2 rows).
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
Does anyone know what "hormone/s" is/are responsible for the flowering of ruderalis plants (Florigen co-proteins and/or amino acids)? I have found N-acetyl-thiazolidine-4-carboxylic acid (ATCA/NATCA/Aminofol/Folcisteine) being attributed with the flowering/ripening of fruit.

I only ask because it stands to reason that its introduction in this cocktail might allow me to flower all my plants under 24 hour daylight likely further improving overall efficiency..

Are there any "Florigen" products on the market?

Chack this out:
PGR Combi "We have successfully developed a best combination and tested last many years in different crops and found very effective cost benefit ratio."

or this one:

N-Acetyl Thiazolidine Carboxylic Acid "Foliar application at various stages of plants growth may be applied in combination with foliar fertilizers and micro nutrients. The yield increase is estimated as 35% to 50%"

Too bad they are both in India... But not this one, they are a European company with offices in the U.S. though at nearly $10/gram in their smallest quantity the price seems a little steep..

Is it just me or does it seem that ironing out the correct ratios in a cocktail containing all these hormones/nutrients has profound applications? You could potentially make every plant a high potency high yielding ruderalis-like plant (at your own discretion)
 
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