Cutting electric costs for HID lighting by 25%.

As some of you are aware im in the process of going solar on my home,not fully solar but a 2,050 watt solar system to cut electric costs,after i bought my system i kept looking for more shit to cut my power consumption,one of the products i ran across is the power save 1200,its made by the same company where i bought my solar panel system.

Its a capacitor bank that hooks directly up to the circut breaker box,if your a diy kinda guy this would only take about 15 minutes to install,if your scared of working in the electrical panel to install 3 wires any handy person can do the install as it is as simpler as it comes.

From what i understand it saves power much along the same lines as how running 240 volts compared against 120 volts,the 240 volts saves power by using less amperage,this is how this system saves you cash.

Here is an example,the power flowing from the unit may be around 10 amps of power draw,this would mean that 10 amps are comming from the breaker panel,without the capacitor bank turned on this would be true,with the capacitor box in place & turned on the amperage will still be 10 amps going out from the system & into the home but the amperage going into the unit will only be 5 amps,that is a 50% drop in amperage use,this is where the money savings come in.

According to the info posted this leads to a savings of 10% to 25% each month,these savings can be huge when totaled up over a 12 month period,they even offer a full 6 month cash back offer if your electric consumption is not lowered,the unit comes with a 5 year gaurentee as well & its a UL listed & approved product.

At $299 shipped right to the door it seems like a no brainer to me,its a way to cut costs & more importantly a way to bring the power use down so LEO dont have a big reason to suspect us,here is a link to the product.

After checking the unit out scroll down to watch the demonstration video of the unit in action,there are power bill comparisons to look at along with satisfied customer testimonials.

http://www.power-save1200.com/1200.html

interesting read

That is awesome. I am thinking of getting something like this. do you have any more info on the 2,050 watt solar system you are going with.
Thanks

Very interesting panhead. Out of curiosity, how much do those solar panels cost???

yo panhead, good find. I was checking what some reviews/thoughts were and ran across this forum. Although I'm not saying it's a bad piece of equipment, or that all the people on the forum are actually educated in physics, but here you go!

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=232734

oh, and more on that 2,050 solar panel! Manufacturer/web site, anything for us? Cost? I am really wanting to go green indoor and out.

the company i work for was one of the first to introduce this product. the unit works bets for motor loads, its not going to save you any money with just lights. it works like this. when you turn on a motor, like a vac of when your fridge kicks on, it draws additional start up power to get the motor going, then it drops back to normal operating power. when you start any motor, it will spin your meter faster so it can start up. the only thing this unit does, is stores power in the caps, and when you turn your motor on, instead of it pulling extra juice from your meter, the power is allready stored in the capacitor, thus not putting any extra strain on your meter.

jnuggs said:

yo panhead, good find. I was checking what some reviews/thoughts were and ran across this forum. Although I'm not saying it's a bad piece of equipment, or that all the people on the forum are actually educated in physics, but here you go!

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=232734

oh, and more on that 2,050 solar panel! Manufacturer/web site, anything for us? Cost? I am really wanting to go green indoor and out.

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Its threads & information like you posted in your link that are the reasons why i have not sent them any cash yet for this product,i started my quest for info on capacitor banks & ended up as confused as when i started,maybee even more confused after reading those physics guru's take on this application of capacitor banks.

While i am not a master electrican i am not uneducated in electricity & its application in residential & commercial applications,i do not pretend to be an expert on this,i normally leave issues like these to my electricians to figure out but this time i must get to the bottom of it,i have found some serious flaws in their methodology but since i am not an expert in the feild take what im about to say with a grain of salt.

The info on that site is the one & only case ive seen where the members are too smart to see the light at the end of the tunnel,they spend a great deal of time focusing on weather loads are reactive/capacitive or inductive,what they fail to focus on is that load types are subject to change,alot of devices found in every home can run in several different load types depending on the circumstances of how they are being operated,i know for a fact that a simple furnace blower can present 2 different load types depending on how the fan is being used,these guys focus on all conditions being equal & this is the part of their methodology i find extreme fault with,i know from errecting buildings from the ground up over the last 30 years that each building has its own set of variables & conditions,this does not make me correct or right in my thinking but i do know enough where i realize that the conditions they dismiss as meaningless make up the bulk of why i find faults,these guys do not allow for non constant conditions,they also allmost totally disregard wire losses and transformer location in relation to the meter which is nuts,they also take for granted that everything in the home is operating within nonimal paramaters,which is not the case in most homes or businesses & can have a huger effect on how much power is being used.

Capacitor banks are not a new application ive just recently found out from talking with the electrical foreman who works for me,these systems were widely used in commercial applications years back,according to him they were dropped for several reasons,one being the cost of the systems that get passed on to the building owner,anything to cut costs has been done & in most cases the costs of a capacitor bank is more expensive than the ntire breaker panel & all its breakers combigned,another issue is that utility companys started charging fixed kilowatt rates,somewhere along the line they snuck one in on us,they do charge fixed rates but they adjust these rates durring peak hours (growers) as well as levy penalty rates against high consumption customers(growers),this is the catagory we fall into,when your reading these physics majors discussing this pay attention how they allways qualify their statements saying that "the average joe" most likely wont see a savings,we are not the average joe.

Another flaw in their methodology is their focus on the electric meter & its mode of operation,they also use the meter as a constant variable,this is far from the case & the reason why alot of utilities are now getting away from analog meters in favor of digital meters,what these physics guys focus on as a constant is that the meter will allways read power use as "Actual power" & not "Apparant Power",this is something i also know not to be true in all buildings.

Something i do not see them make any allowance for is older appliances or appliances that do not have some sort of passive power correction system allready built into the appliance,ive never seen any HID ballast that has any form of power correction system, weather it be active or passive,as well as many older non energy star compliant appliances not having any correction systems,i could be wrong on the ballast part though as i have never disected a digital ballast,i know that magnetic ballasts do not use power correction systems but there is the possibility that digi ballasts do,this may be where the savings in electric use start at with digi ballasts,still i am unsure though.

When i read their discussion i keep going back to the fact that they allways focus on the average joe & normal load considerations,the issue of a home owner having power draw that presents itself as a highly inductive load is allways side stepped & brushed away as out of the range of normal home owner conditions,much of their methodology is flawed because they never allow for unusual load types ,which when we think about it are exactly the type loads we present to our service panel, every time a ballast kicks on to power up the light we go outside the normal conditions that they count on not being in the average home.

Their dismissial of power factor is something i cant get past as well,if a capacitor bank will take whatever type load the power draw is demanding & turn it into a unity power factor which is being presented to the meter then the better power factor alone should reduce power consumption,again much depends on weather the meter reads its power consumption as actual power & not apparant power,i cant get past the fact that there is no real way to tell exactly how the meter is (currently) seeing its power being that the way the meter see's its power can change from within the meter itself durring its lifetime,this whole thing is very confusing to say the least.

They might be right that the capacitor bank storage system will not translate into any real savings,but they also may be incorrect,i see way too many issues that they brush away & automatically dismiss as not being relevant, when i know for a fact that alot of the issues they dismiss as non relevant are infact highly relevant.

Here is a discussion that paints a some what different picture & allows for some of the variable conditions that the physics guys count on as being a constant,still no desicive info but it does bring up some good points & atleast shows the possibility of savings by allowing that conditions are not a constant.

If you do read the link tell me what you think.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16598530

When i know more i will post

riproor said:

the company i work for was one of the first to introduce this product. the unit works bets for motor loads, its not going to save you any money with just lights. it works like this. when you turn on a motor, like a vac of when your fridge kicks on, it draws additional start up power to get the motor going, then it drops back to normal operating power. when you start any motor, it will spin your meter faster so it can start up. the only thing this unit does, is stores power in the caps, and when you turn your motor on, instead of it pulling extra juice from your meter, the power is allready stored in the capacitor, thus not putting any extra strain on your meter.

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Yes that is correct from what ive learned but tell me this if you know,wouldnt there also be savings not only at start up but durring operation as well,what im really missing here is how there cant be savings simply from keeping the load being presented to the power supply at its optimum range,not only would the appliance be at its optimum level but the load as well.

Edit,something i think were missing here on the HID lighting end is amperage use,if im not mistaken the amperage draw at start up time fluctuates heavily in HID's,with a capacitor inline, before the ballast, a constant amperage should result in less demand from the ballasts cap's,which in turn should mean less heat from the ballast,less energy being passed through heat should translate into less wasted electricity

This is not an easy thing to figure out from what im learning.

pitbull250r said:

That is awesome. I am thinking of getting something like this. do you have any more info on the 2,050 watt solar system you are going with.
Thanks

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All the links to the system i bought are in this thread,along with the federal & state rebates & incentives & final cost estimates.

I forgot to paste a link .

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/155845-solar-power.html

Panhead, Just another thing to consider> capacitors charge and discharge relatively quickly and like everything and anything they are not 100% efficient. They store power and then release it when a load comes along that demands it but just as fast as they discharge they will recharge. This means that your meter may see an even load when something power hungry is fired up but the caps will be recharging themselves as soon as that load dwindles which will draw even more power but over a greater period of time.
Large capacitors are commonly used in larger aftermarket car stereos and their effectiveness in even that application is highly contested.
The only way to see if it will actually save you money & be worth it is to try it!

Okay well... I'm not an electrician but here it goes. I see a flaw. You're trying to create energy which, to date has yet to be done.

In the vacuum example. The extra draw at start up is a moot point. Just because it won't show on your meter doesn't mean it's not being drawn. It was just drawn over a little more time and saved in the capacitor. Fire up the vac, the capacitor discharges with less than 100% efficiency, recharging and generating heat(heat is energy lost and adds to resistance), so it's taking more, although a very very small amount, it is more. So then the capacitor begins to recharge to it's capacity. Once full, it stops, until it is required again. Keep in mind, this is an extra load on the house circuit. Loads create resistance. If they don't, they are a dead short and will fry.

What good is a capacitor then? Well, if put in front of something that has a high energy start up requirement, it will supply the extra power until the charge is dissipated, at which point it will then begin to recharge itself. Advantage to that is, everything that is in front of the capacitor will see less of a power fluctuation. This is good for sensitive electronics.

On to my next thing. The higher voltage equipment does NOT save you money. Electric companies(around here anyways) bill by the kilowatt/hour.

Kilowatt = 1000 watts = amperage x voltage + a small percentage of loss due to resistance and heat, over time, which they figure by the hour.

Think of voltage as the rate or speed. Gear heads think of horsepower

Amperage is the force applied. Gear heads think of torque

110/120v @ 4A = 440 watts/480 watts

220/240v @ 2 A = 440 watts/480 watts

It makes little sense to add extra loads to your house line, or try and save money using a different voltage. You will always have the minimum amount of draw that is required to power the lamp alone, plus the losses for the transformer, capacitor, resistance at the connections etc. Just my buck o' five.

The supposed reasoning behind capacitors in car stereo applications also has to do with stopping power spikes. Car electronics can take some, but not all. When the alternator is sized proportionately to the capacitor and stereo system, it will be less likely to fail. Alternators are intended to run at a fairly consistent voltage and amperage. Caps just soften the blow, they don't stop it.

Mr.J420 said:

Panhead, Just another thing to consider> capacitors charge and discharge relatively quickly and like everything and anything they are not 100% efficient. They store power and then release it when a load comes along that demands it but just as fast as they discharge they will recharge. This means that your meter may see an even load when something power hungry is fired up but the caps will be recharging themselves as soon as that load dwindles which will draw even more power but over a greater period of time.
Large capacitors are commonly used in larger aftermarket car stereos and their effectiveness in even that application is highly contested.
The only way to see if it will actually save you money & be worth it is to try it!

Click to expand...

You are right in what you say about capacitors,i do understand exactly what a cap does & the limitations they have,i also understand the car stereo concept with caps as i have several high end car systems i put together myself,on a side note no matter how large of caps i used in my car system in the mustang i could not get enough steady power to my Mcintosh amps,i had to install an ambulance alternator to push enough power.

There are so many angles to this that its hard to know exactly which angle is the proper angle,being that ive allready spent a fat greasy wad of cash with the same manufacturer im going to hit them up monday & see if they wont hook me up on a trial run,with the no questions asked cash back offer its really hard to loose,this is something i will follow up on & also post any findings.

DS1983 said:

Okay well... I'm not an electrician but here it goes. I see a flaw. You're trying to create energy which, to date has yet to be done.

In the vacuum example. The extra draw at start up is a moot point. Just because it won't show on your meter doesn't mean it's not being drawn. It was just drawn over a little more time and saved in the capacitor. Fire up the vac, the capacitor discharges with less than 100% efficiency, recharging and generating heat(heat is energy lost and adds to resistance), so it's taking more, although a very very small amount, it is more. So then the capacitor begins to recharge to it's capacity. Once full, it stops, until it is required again. Keep in mind, this is an extra load on the house circuit. Loads create resistance. If they don't, they are a dead short and will fry.

What good is a capacitor then? Well, if put in front of something that has a high energy start up requirement, it will supply the extra power until the charge is dissipated, at which point it will then begin to recharge itself. Advantage to that is, everything that is in front of the capacitor will see less of a power fluctuation. This is good for sensitive electronics.

On to my next thing. The higher voltage equipment does NOT save you money. Electric companies(around here anyways) bill by the kilowatt/hour.

Kilowatt = 1000 watts = amperage x voltage + a small percentage of loss due to resistance and heat, over time, which they figure by the hour.

Think of voltage as the rate or speed. Gear heads think of horsepower

Amperage is the force applied. Gear heads think of torque

110/120v @ 4A = 440 watts/480 watts

220/240v @ 2 A = 440 watts/480 watts

It makes little sense to add extra loads to your house line, or try and save money using a different voltage. You will always have the minimum amount of draw that is required to power the lamp alone, plus the losses for the transformer, capacitor, resistance at the connections etc. Just my buck o' five.

The supposed reasoning behind capacitors in car stereo applications also has to do with stopping power spikes. Car electronics can take some, but not all. When the alternator is sized proportionately to the capacitor and stereo system, it will be less likely to fail. Alternators are intended to run at a fairly consistent voltage and amperage. Caps just soften the blow, they don't stop it.

Click to expand...

I may be wrong in my understanding of the purpose of a capacitor bank in breaker applications but from what i understand the intent is not to create power that is not allready there,thats an impossibility,the intent is to manage the available power in the most productive manner,much like a power conditioner type situation,this is my understanding of what function breaker capacitors serve,not to create energy.

Im aware of what caps are used for in stereo applications,however you are quite a bit off on what a cap does in a car stereo application,capacitors are not used for protection from spikes,they are used in the power supply line to supply extreme power demands durring very high dynamic swings (draws) within the amplification chain,being that most car amplifiers do not contain large capacitors they recieve all their energy directly from the alternator.

To fully understand what a capacitor does for the amplification chain it helps to understand why they are used,amlifiers will have 2 seperate wattage ratings,one will be a continuous rating & the other will be peak or dynamic rating,the continuous rating is what the amp is able to produce at all times,the dynamic rating is a much higher rating & tells what the amp can deliever for short durrations,people often confuse the higher of the 2 ratings as what the amp can deliever at all times.

An amp rated at 100 watts per channel continuous may have a dynamic rating of up to 1,000 watts per channel,a standard alternator will have no problem delevering 100 watts but durring heavy bass passages in the music is where they run into trouble,bass response accounts for about 90% of the wattage used in stereo applications,even though the amp is rated at 100 watts continuous & the alternator can easily deliever that load durring hard hitting low octave bass passages the dynamic demand can increase 10 fold,up to 1,000 watts,this is the power an alternator cant provide,if the amplifier cant take in enough power to deliever the neded wattage the amp will run out of head room & bass response (slam) will suffer.

By inserting a capacitor in the loop between the alternator & the amplifier there is now an energy storing device,the capacitor will be able to store more power than the alternator could ever hope to produce,the amp then recieves its power from the capacitor,this way when hard hitting dynamic swings, which are above the limitations of the alternators output are put on the amp the power to supply the increased demand is on hand,without a cap bass slam would be non existant in alot of car stereos,or be reduced heavily.

In order to supply outgoing wattage the incomming wattage needs to be able to deliever the amount that is out going,an amplifier that is (supposedly) capable of delievering a 1,000 watt peak output cant deliever the rated output unless it has that much power available to make the wattage to start with,most alternators are not capable of delievering anywhere near the amount needed to make 1,000 output from the amp.

This is where capacitors come into play,their intent is to store power,that way when the amplifier encounters a dynamic burst it is not relying on the power being supplied directly from the alternator,in alot of cases even a capacitor cant store enough power for the outgoing wattage,this is where capacitors are set up in a daisy chain configuration using multiple capacitors.

The short explaination is that capacitors are not intended to protect against spikes,they are a power storage device.

I can agree with that.

However, you can not deny the fact that it is very much so reducing power spikes to the rest of the electrical system. So long as the supply exceeds the demand at the cap of course(and not depleting it on the longer draws). I don't own a big competition stereo, but I get by and enjoy my headlights not dimming as much.

I guess I must have misunderstood the first post involving the capacitor at the breaker then.

I was under the impression that that the capacitor somehow magically generated energy by reading the "save 10% to 25%". I know you're just going on what you've read from the seller, and no doubt you have some background in this stuff giving you an edge. It defies logic though.

Just because the power wasn't drawn all at once, it was still drawn and will still be paid for in the form of a kilowatt/hour, assuming that the utilities in your area bill that way(and the minuscule losses in between from an extra load). So I guess that's where I'm getting stuck on the issue. I do not intend to offend, but if you do decide to purchase this system, I'd be greatly interested in understanding more on how it actually works, assuming it does. Perhaps some math is involved that I'm simply not understanding. It wouldn't be the first time.

Again, I apologize. My bs flag went up and I went off. I will not interrupt again.

P.S. I don't know WTF I was thinking with the last paragraph of my post above. Perhaps the reason why I use one ran through my mind. You are 100% correct in their application in car audio.

i have been looking into this product for around 6 months..i have read many reviews and tests done by people that have no links to the company..there is a electrician forum out there that has a thread dedicated to the powersave1200..i read through pretty much all and it was so funny to see them put the product down before they bought it..everyone seem to have a reason it wouldnt work..as the thread goes on a few guys bought some and actually took it apart to tell everyone what was in it and all that good stuff(which i know nothing about)..anyways, every changed their minds after they hooked it up..the product not only saves energy but it makes your appliances VERY QUIET..one electrican was amazed that his AC unit and fernace made no more noice..lol..by the end of the thread they all were purchasing more for their work shops..lol...my main reason for looking into this was for adding life to my appliances but i dont hear to many people putting this product down..i will see if i can dig up the link to that electrician thread

here is that link..it takes em about 6 pages to actually like the product

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16598530~days=9999~start=120

DS1983 said:

It defies logic though.
Just because the power wasn't drawn all at once, it was still drawn and will still be paid for in the form of a kilowatt/hour, assuming that the utilities in your area bill that way(and the minuscule losses in between from an extra load).

Click to expand...

Im leary myself but im not so sure its design principal does defy logic,much about this is not how the power company charges for power,we all know its by the watt/kilowatt,it has alot to do with how they arrive at thier figures,supposedly the charges are based on actual power when the meter could in fact be reading aparant power,then they charge as actual,they have lots of lee way on what they do with our bill.

There are so many pro's & con's to this its hard to know,on one side the companies manufacturing these units research is sound, as are the descriptions they give on why it saves electric use,on the other hand there are grey areas,these grey areas are where people are finding fault,i also find fault in the methology of the unit but all faults i find are based on the assumption that we know exactly how our power meters see the power they are recording,its not so much about what power readings the meter gives as it is about how the meter derived those readings.

I still cant see how improving an appliances power factor to hte absolute best most efficient it can be will not reesult in decreased electric use.

After reading everything on both sides of this issue ive came to a conclusion,both sides offer arguements that are based on solid reasoning & science,from where my understanding level is at with this product there are several reasons why this product should not effect electric costs,on the other side of hte coin there are just as many reasons why it should lower electric costs.

Ive spoke with several people who work in the feild as well as a master electrican,the common agreement is that i'll never know unless i give it a shot beacuse each building has many different variables that can effect weather the systems will save on electric costs.

With that being said i have ordered 2 units,one will be installed in a commercial building i own & the other will be installed in my home.

After i install them i'll take the next 3 months power bills & compare the electric costs against last years electric costs over the same 3 month period,this will give me the answer weather they save electricity using 2 different buildings,i hope to have both units installed by the 1st of march,were looking at a time frame of around june 3rd where i can tabulate & compare the costs & have an answer on savings,if they dont save anything they are going right back for a full refund.

The commercial building application will give me a dead nuts accurate comparison as the exact same amounts of electricity are used in that building 24 hours a day all year long with very little varaition, electric consumption in that building is not dependant on what electric devices humans are using on a daily basis,it is where i grow at & everything is on timers with no variation.

I will report back when i have for sure information.

Digging this thread up from the dead. I look forward to seeing your results. I'll probably forget that this thread existed in three months, but I hope to see what you post at some point. It'd be nice to see real world results. Good luck and I hope it works out for you!

yup, subscribed... i'd like to know as well