COCO Impossible to properly PH!! Hate it...

High all,
what is the most accurate way to ph coco? I am having a constant battle with ph ever since I mix my coco/perlite with dolomite lime at the rate of 1 tblsp/gal.

Everybody said not to worry about run off ph, but when you flush your 2 gal media with almost 20 gal of RO water ph 5.8 with run off reading still @7.4 you know you have a problem...

I have measured my coco ph with "proper" method too. Took some coco from middle of pot, mix with little water and ph the mix, and well it reads very close to run off ph which is still @ph 7.2

Eventually I have to dump lots of phosphoric acid to the RO water to get the ph down to 2, and dump that solution with approx 2 times the volume of the pot to get run off ph and coco ph to acceptable 5.6-5.8 range....On top of that I dump another RO solution with nutes 2 times pot capacity to neutralize the excess phosphoric acid.... Try doing that with 3 pots in a day...

What's the matter here?? Everybody said coco rarely exhibit ph problem, and it is fine to mix dolomite with coco, but my experience told me otherwise.

I bought pre treated (leached) coco (forgot the brand but it was nicely packed), before use, I washed it really really well using meshwire screen and running HOT water to get run off ppm below 30-50 (from initial reading of 100), flush the entire thing 2 times capacity with RO ph to 5.8. But still I am fighting this endless battle against ph rising? What's the matter with coco??

Even my flowering plant on coco without dolomite have the same problem to a much lesser degree, not too bad and no lockout problem yet. Much less ph rise than the one with dolomite mixed but still rising...

Please any advice are appreciated..

Cheers!!

First and Formost thing you need to know. IS STOP LISTENING TO PEOPLE WHO GROW IN SOIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just sent you a PM that will explain both problems. These soil growers need to stop telling people how to grow in COCO.

Lord Dangly Bits said:

First and Formost thing you need to know. IS STOP LISTENING TO PEOPLE WHO GROW IN SOIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I did exactly this and got this problem.... The suggestion to use dolomite was from the other forum with coco specific subforum and was posted by the most "expert" (Mehh) guy on coco in that forum... He swore by it..

Yah well then that fo-rum is full of IDIOTS!!!!!

THis is a thread I posted a while back for beginner coco growers.

Click here:::::: https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/401052-those-thinking-coco.html

Also,k what nutri0ents are you using? Some of them fill in the Micro Holes with crap.

LOL!! You got that exactly right.... The so called expert on that coco SPECIFIC forum never even bother to answer my questions nor backup his statement about his dolomite use. F#ck that forum!! I would love to disclose that idiotic poster and idiotic forum but that would be fishing in murky water no??

I am using KISS method (GH Maxibloom for the entire grow) use aged tap water with initial ppm of 90 (hanna 0.5) and I flush with RO once a month, more often if I suspect anything wrong. Light is 250W MH for veg and 400HPS for flower. Watering every other day with nutes and little runoff, calcium and magnesium every watering. Temp 72-80F, RH 40-60%.

The right way to test the pH of your coco is to:
take a little of the moist coco from the planter
put it in a small cup, or shot glass type thing
Add a small amount of filtered water to make a slurry
Test this slurry after it has rested a minute or two

Coco is very pH forgiving. The coco itself is inert. If it is clean, it is pH neutral, so the issue you're having is a conductivity thing.

All you need to focus on is running a coco specific system at 5.8pH with 25% run off minimum when you water/feed. As long as you are consistent and vigilant then the chances of having a pH problem in coco are very slim.

Coco run off can be recorded and used as a relational tool with future growing. I keep track of my run off knowing that it doesn't tell me what is actually going on in the media. I use it as a counter-point to the plant's appearance so that if I see my run off is more than 1.0EC over what is going in then I know that there is some build-up and I need to drop the nutrient levels and increase my run off volumes. Think of your run off measurements not as accurate representations of the media interior, but more like a barometer for you to gauge your future actions against. Gather the data first.

My concept is to find a nutrient system with directions, and establish a plan based on that. Try to just stay the course and stick to the plan. If you want to change the plan then you can ask people here if the change is a good idea or not. Forums are GREAT for asking first and shooting later.

Good luck. Coco is a method unto itself, unlike anything else, but once you get your head wrapped around the stuff you'll find it is not all that tricky.

I was a member at that other forum for a while as well. If you visited that thread, you might recognize me as "2lsc." That "talking horse... the amazing Mr..." disappeared from the place just as that thread came into being. Seems like the moderators there have banned every worthwhile and effectively stopped being helpful.

Glad you made it over here. Different atmosphere (name calling, trolling, etc) but there's a lot of good also.

Snow Crash here Explained the run off much better then I did. Also. when you make corrections, do not go over board. Like if you spike the PH to lets say 7.8, do not flush it with 3.8 to get 5.6. Flush it with no less then about 5.2 at the very lowest, but do this each day until it corrects itself.

But I am mix'd on the PHing of the Coco Slurry. Yah, if you have allowed it to get Hot with PH, then maybe do that. But if you allow your 20% of daily run off to happen. Then all you need to do it once a week, take a sample of the run off from the middle amount of it. Not the start, and not the finish. if it is 5.2-5.9 all is well. But adjust to get it closer to the middle if on one end or the other. Like if it is 6.0 PH adjust to 5.4, if it is 5.1 PH adjust to 5.7.
But if you only water ever 2-3 days, which I know can be done, then you salts are going to build up. Canna will spike the PH Higher if this happens. Where General Hydro Pure Blend with Spike it Low. But this will not happen if you water them more.

Snow Crash, Nice to see that someone else out here has a handle on the Coco also. Even though not all of our ways line up totally. Like I think you like the pressed Bricks, while I hate them. But no big deal. Wish I could +rep yah again, but it will not allow me.

The right way to test the pH of your coco is to:
take a little of the moist coco from the planter
put it in a small cup, or shot glass type thing
Add a small amount of filtered water to make a slurry
Test this slurry after it has rested a minute or two

Click to expand...

I did exactly that plus run off ph too. Both are pretty damn close. Contrary to what poster from 'THAT' forum led me to believe, "dont worry about runoff PH, your going in PH is what matter".. It is all bollocks... Now I learnt, if your run off is high, then your actual ph is high too. Use logic...Simple as that..

Coco is very pH forgiving. The coco itself is inert. If it is clean, it is pH neutral, so the issue you're having is a conductivity thing

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Couldn't agree more. With other media probably my plants already all dead. Thanks to 'THAT' forum and 'THAT' so called expert who now chose to keep silent and ignore other people's problem which arise from His "expertise", my media has been contaminated by dolomite lime...

All you need to focus on is running a coco specific system at 5.8pH with 25% run off minimum when you water/feed. As long as you are consistent and vigilant then the chances of having a pH problem in coco are very slim.

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Unfortunately all i could get where I live is just powdered form nute. So all I have is GH maxi series and I am using maxibloom only (KISS)... Assuming I still have leftover lime after the heavy flush, would it be safe and work if I just keep on watering with normal nutes everyday with 100%-150% runoff and lowered PH (5 - 5.5) to counter act the leftover high ph effect of the lime? Off course while in the same time keep on close monitor of the media ph and runoff ph adjusting accordingly. Is this possible in theory? I believe no matter how strong the lime is, if you give it constant bombardment of low ph water eventually the lime will be rendered neutral and will not raise ph anymore.. Am I correct??

Coco run off can be recorded and used as a relational tool with future growing. I keep track of my run off knowing that it doesn't tell me what is actually going on in the media. I use it as a counter-point to the plant's appearance so that if I see my run off is more than 1.0EC over what is going in then I know that there is some build-up and I need to drop the nutrient levels and increase my run off volumes. Think of your run off measurements not as accurate representations of the media interior, but more like a barometer for you to gauge your future actions against. Gather the data first.

Click to expand...

Well said. But as my experience told me to, now I relate runoff ph and actual ph very closely.... I don't actually have problem with nutrient uptake with my plant, after overnight the ec of my media would drop indicating that my plants are eating. But I am having phosphorous lockout due to the ph problem. My plants still growing (slowly), looking very very perky and healthy with small fan leaves and just yesterday some dead bronze/brown crispy older leaves indicating phosphorous problem (or magnesium??).

My concept is to find a nutrient system with directions, and establish a plan based on that. Try to just stay the course and stick to the plan. If you want to change the plan then you can ask people here if the change is a good idea or not. Forums are GREAT for asking first and shooting later.

Click to expand...

Well said

Good luck. Coco is a method unto itself, unlike anything else, but once you get your head wrapped around the stuff you'll find it is not all that tricky.

Click to expand...

Agree, but the very limited information and non existent definitive and elaborate guide on it made it a bit frustrating....

I was a member at that other forum for a while as well. If you visited that thread, you might recognize me as "2lsc." That "talking horse... the amazing Mr..." disappeared from the place just as that thread came into being. Seems like the moderators there have banned every worthwhile and effectively stopped being helpful.

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I am not going back to 'THAT' stupid forum...

Glad you made it over here. Different atmosphere (name calling, trolling, etc) but there's a lot of good also.

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Fine by me. Better than having your questions ignored or replied with mehh answer... Why have a forum if not for asking questions..

Thanks a million folks. You guys made me feel welcome here...

Sorry slightly out of topic guys.. But since we are here already, could you guys help me pinpoint what exactly is my problem.... I am leaning very heavy towards phosphorous lockout due to PH problem, slow growth and small fan leaves, but it might be magnesium problem too (older leaves affected, crispy dead leaves, somewhat remain green veins, bronze colored).... What do you think?? Maybe both problem??

Lord Dangly Bits said:

Snow Crash here Explained the run off much better then I did. Also. when you make corrections, do not go over board. Like if you spike the PH to lets say 7.8, do not flush it with 3.8 to get 5.6. Flush it with no less then about 5.2 at the very lowest, but do this each day until it corrects itself.

But I am mix'd on the PHing of the Coco Slurry. Yah, if you have allowed it to get Hot with PH, then maybe do that. But if you allow your 20% of daily run off to happen. Then all you need to do it once a week, take a sample of the run off from the middle amount of it. Not the start, and not the finish. if it is 5.2-5.9 all is well. But adjust to get it closer to the middle if on one end or the other. Like if it is 6.0 PH adjust to 5.4, if it is 5.1 PH adjust to 5.7.
But if you only water ever 2-3 days, which I know can be done, then you salts are going to build up. Canna will spike the PH Higher if this happens. Where General Hydro Pure Blend with Spike it Low. But this will not happen if you water them more.

Snow Crash, Nice to see that someone else out here has a handle on the Coco also. Even though not all of our ways line up totally. Like I think you like the pressed Bricks, while I hate them. But no big deal. Wish I could +rep yah again, but it will not allow me.

Click to expand...

Thanks a million dude. The answer I found here helped me more in an hour than what I get a week from 'THAT' forum... LOL!!! I am being an ass to 'THAT' forum now... I lugged almost 60 gallon of water yesterday, treating each 5 gallons individually before dumping and dealing with hell of a watery mess... Try that and you'll know how I feel... Thanks to 'THAT' forum....

I think it is like anything else. When shit hits the fan, you fix the biggest problem first. Most likely if you do as Snow Crash and I have said, in 4-7 days all will be good. And on the Heavy flushing to o-ff set the lime. Give it a go. It might work. But I would think about re-potting. Hell I had plants once in a Soil grow that was in HOT Soil. So I took them out of the pot and ran them under water at about 70 degrees and washed off what soil I could then stuck them into a hydro system and they shot o-ff like a rocket. This is a weed plant. give them something close to what they like and they will respond.

I no longer am using Canna Nuts, But i still like their Coco. But it is to hard to get for me. But i highly suggest you watch this video on ho-w co-co is produced. There is also parts 2 and 3. But part 1 is the best.
Skip forward to 2 minutes 10 seconds so you skip the Canna Corperation Advertiseing Bull shit!
If you skip forward to 4 minutes and 10 seconds, it will show the reason why you PH is spiking and problems are happening. In these VOIDS they show, The Nutrients build up as Salts and fill in these voids, SPIKING the PH.

Click here ::::::: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsJXJED0qD4

CNS 17 has a great coco system I very highly recommend. Huh, huh, very high...

Anyway, Miller, the picture you posted is a lock out issue as a result of over feeding and not getting enough run off. I've been in coco for a few years now and the one rule I now always follow is an excessive amount of run off. In my 3 gallon planters I try to get at least 1/2 a gallon of run off from each plant. Winds up being about 30% run off best way to keep the coco clean.

Phosphorus is a crucial element in coco. Potassium though can be an issue, and most bloom nutrients create more issues than they are worth.

I know KISS, I just don't buy into it. Don't sell yourself short. MaxiBloom isn't bad stuff, but anyone that uses it can tell you that you can do better with a little knowledge. Also, anyone with the internet has access to anything for sale... on the internet. You can get what you need delivered to your door, so that excuse won't fly

I find, nutritionally, with coco what you aim for in the beginning is a high nitrogen and calcium mix with a decent amount of phosphorus, and a lower than normal level of potassium. During flowering I like to add A LOT of phosphorus.

Ratios that I think work well are 3-2-1 for veg and 1-3-2 for Flowering (over simplified of course). I use a nutrient calculator to estimate these values in order to supplement Canna A+B to the correct ratio. Potassium deficiency is VERY easy to resolve, but the toxicity is a huge problem in coco, and as a result it is much safer to error on the side of caution and gradually increase the K+ level to get it in the right range.

In all my time in coco I have never seen a pH issue, even without a meter. The Lime doesn't "raise" pH as much as buffer it to a consistent level. It should hold the pH right around 6.8 to 7.0. This is fine when amending the coco with organics but could be an issue. Stuff takes a while to break down also. Just stick with the run off, every time, just drain the crap out of them and in not too long everything will come together right.

CNS 17 has a great coco system I very highly recommend. Huh, huh, very high...

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Yes I know, I've been hearing great things about it, too bad I do not have access to it... I live in far east, don't feel comfortable having fertilizer being sent to my address.... I get my powdered maxi series from my in law who come once a year... There is no way she would be willing to lug around heavy container containing liquid with her luggage... I get enough yap yap with my powdered maxi already....

Anyway, Miller, the picture you posted is a lock out issue as a result of over feeding and not getting enough run off. I've been in coco for a few years now and the one rule I now always follow is an excessive amount of run off. In my 3 gallon planters I try to get at least 1/2 a gallon of run off from each plant. Winds up being about 30% run off best way to keep the coco clean.

Click to expand...

Yes I think so too. It is definitely a lockout issue. Plants have been looking dandy but growing real slow lately, but I couldn't point the issue because the symptom just appeared 2 days ago.... I think it is a ph problem. You pointed the cause in the most logical way and I am convinced... Thanks dude... I have to admit, I have been slacking with flushing and runoff after I moved all the plants to bigger pot... I water with only little runoff and not enough frequency... My grow room is about 30 ft away from nearest drain. It is no fun lugging around heavy container with lots of water... I am building a new room now with drain....

Phosphorus is a crucial element in coco. Potassium though can be an issue, and most bloom nutrients create more issues than they are worth.

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I ph Down with phosporic acid, but I ph Up with potassium hydroxide...If potassium can be an issue, what do you suggest for ph Up?? Something that is readily available over the counter of general chemical supplier.

I know KISS, I just don't buy into it. Don't sell yourself short. MaxiBloom isn't bad stuff, but anyone that uses it can tell you that you can do better with a little knowledge. Also, anyone with the internet has access to anything for sale... on the internet. You can get what you need delivered to your door, so that excuse won't fly

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LOL! As I explained above, I am shit out of luck!!

I find, nutritionally, with coco what you aim for in the beginning is a high nitrogen and calcium mix with a decent amount of phosphorus, and a lower than normal level of potassium. During flowering I like to add A LOT of phosphorus.

Ratios that I think work well are 3-2-1 for veg and 1-3-2 for Flowering (over simplified of course). I use a nutrient calculator to estimate these values in order to supplement Canna A+B to the correct ratio. Potassium deficiency is VERY easy to resolve, but the toxicity is a huge problem in coco, and as a result it is much safer to error on the side of caution and gradually increase the K+ level to get it in the right range.

Click to expand...

OK right now what I have on hand is maxigrow, maxibloom and koolbloom.. I need to work with what I have or easily obtainable from chemical store for now before I find out a way to get CNS17 to me....
So you reckon I should just use maxigrow on veg and maxibloom on flowering?? I am OK with mediocre harvest, that is what I have right now... Any suggestion to make what I have works?

In all my time in coco I have never seen a pH issue, even without a meter. The Lime doesn't "raise" pH as much as buffer it to a consistent level. It should hold the pH right around 6.8 to 7.0. This is fine when amending the coco with organics but could be an issue. Stuff takes a while to break down also. Just stick with the run off, every time, just drain the crap out of them and in not too long everything will come together right.

Click to expand...

That is my program now..

WOW!! Folks... I love this forum.... Worth the while to ask here...Thanks a million folks...

Lord Dangly Bits said:

I think it is like anything else. When shit hits the fan, you fix the biggest problem first. Most likely if you do as Snow Crash and I have said, in 4-7 days all will be good. And on the Heavy flushing to o-ff set the lime. Give it a go. It might work. But I would think about re-potting. Hell I had plants once in a Soil grow that was in HOT Soil. So I took them out of the pot and ran them under water at about 70 degrees and washed off what soil I could then stuck them into a hydro system and they shot o-ff like a rocket. This is a weed plant. give them something close to what they like and they will respond.

I no longer am using Canna Nuts, But i still like their Coco. But it is to hard to get for me. But i highly suggest you watch this video on ho-w co-co is produced. There is also parts 2 and 3. But part 1 is the best.
Skip forward to 2 minutes 10 seconds so you skip the Canna Corperation Advertiseing Bull shit!
If you skip forward to 4 minutes and 10 seconds, it will show the reason why you PH is spiking and problems are happening. In these VOIDS they show, The Nutrients build up as Salts and fill in these voids, SPIKING the PH.

Click here ::::::: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsJXJED0qD4

Click to expand...

Re potting would be my last resort. I will try flushing daily with some ph offset and keep close monitor of any parameter change...
So what do you use now? CNS17 too?? I have on hand some ingredients to make cns17 equal (Fatman's formula), but I doubt the validity of the Fatman's formula and hesitate to try it..

If you have both Veg and flower in that powder form as well as Koolbloom. I would give it a go. But use Veg for Veg and Bloom for floweering. Yah got-ta do, what yah got-ta do.

I am assuming that you have the powdered KoolBloom.
And by Far East... Are we talking China?

Anyway, the MaxiGrow has WAY too much Potassium in it, more than twice as much than Nitrogen, and this will create issues down the road.
The Koolbloom is fine, it will really assist the PK profile after the 4th week of flowering, but you don't need very much of the stuff at all. 1tsp in 5 gallons might be too much. I'd go with more like 1/2 to 1/4 teaspoon in 5 gallons, along with about 4/5 strength MaxiBloom.

Of all the things you can add to the system it'd be Nitrogen, Calcium, and Magnesium. There must be a plant nursery somewhere near you, people do grow plants there? Try to find something with Calcium Nitrate. Magnesium is easy enough to find as Epsom Salt.

If you cannot find any fertilizer anywhere... Then you are SOL when it comes to coco growing. I'd suggest just amending the coco with some organics, composted fertilizers, worm castings, and then you can run low levels of the MaxiBloom and should stay in the right range. Actually, amending the coco with the Lime wouldn't be such a bad thing in that situation because it would keep the pH in the proper level for an organic "soil" grow.

With your inability to get the right stuff I'd suggest moving into a coco/organic mix, running your pH around 6.5, and cutting the use of your nutrients in half (because the coco mix would have food contained within).

With regards to the pH balancing, try to never balance down, and then have to use pH up to come back up. If you use too much of the pH down, add more clean water to bring the pH up gradually. Also, allowing for some time to pass should bring the pH up a few points as well. When I need to get my pH to come up I use Potassium Silicate in a product called Dyna Grow Pro-Tekt. A few drops goes a long way with that stuff.

Lord Dangly Bits said:

If you have both Veg and flower in that powder form as well as Koolbloom. I would give it a go. But use Veg for Veg and Bloom for floweering. Yah got-ta do, what yah got-ta do.

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I am planning to do that, but many people dis maxigrow for the reason snow crash mentioned above. Well I don't actually mind if my harvest is less than perfect... Practice makes perfect no?

I am assuming that you have the powdered KoolBloom.
And by Far East... Are we talking China?

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Yes correct...All powdered form...
Well... a little further east my brother.....

Anyway, the MaxiGrow has WAY too much Potassium in it, more than twice as much than Nitrogen, and this will create issues down the road.

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I don't actually mind less than perfect harvest. Can I still get away with maxigrow by adding something..???

The Koolbloom is fine, it will really assist the PK profile after the 4th week of flowering, but you don't need very much of the stuff at all. 1tsp in 5 gallons might be too much. I'd go with more like 1/2 to 1/4 teaspoon in 5 gallons, along with about 4/5 strength MaxiBloom.

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LOL then I think I got a lifetime supply ...

Of all the things you can add to the system it'd be Nitrogen, Calcium, and Magnesium. There must be a plant nursery somewhere near you, people do grow plants there? Try to find something with Calcium Nitrate. Magnesium is easy enough to find as Epsom Salt.

Click to expand...

What exactly are you suggesting with this? Do you mean I can make my own fertilizer or use above base chemical as amendment to maxigrow? Calcium Nitrate, magnesium sulfate, and all the other base ingredients are common here except for chelated iron.

If you cannot find any fertilizer anywhere... Then you are SOL when it comes to coco growing. I'd suggest just amending the coco with some organics, composted fertilizers, worm castings, and then you can run low levels of the MaxiBloom and should stay in the right range. Actually, amending the coco with the Lime wouldn't be such a bad thing in that situation because it would keep the pH in the proper level for an organic "soil" grow.

With your inability to get the right stuff I'd suggest moving into a coco/organic mix, running your pH around 6.5, and cutting the use of your nutrients in half (because the coco mix would have food contained within).

With regards to the pH balancing, try to never balance down, and then have to use pH up to come back up. If you use too much of the pH down, add more clean water to bring the pH up gradually. Also, allowing for some time to pass should bring the pH up a few points as well. When I need to get my pH to come up I use Potassium Silicate in a product called Dyna Grow Pro-Tekt. A few drops goes a long way with that stuff.

Click to expand...

Don't worry, I am not going to give up so soon... I just want to maximize the use of what I have right now before I got my CNS17, got a friend coming from US by end of March. I just need to survive for another month then CNS17 Baby!!!!

BTW: Do they make CNS17 in powder form??

Lord Dangly Bits said:

First and Formost thing you need to know. IS STOP LISTENING TO PEOPLE WHO GROW IN SOIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just sent you a PM that will explain both problems. These soil growers need to stop telling people how to grow in COCO.

Click to expand...

Am having identical problems, could you help me sort this out man, please. Would really REALLY appreciate it dude.

MillerJohn said:

Agree, but the very limited information and non existent definitive and elaborate guide on it made it a bit frustrating....

Click to expand...

Right???