Christianity has been debunked once and for all

PoseidonsNet said:

we infer god exists because absolute logic (logos) exists.
more like an argument from design.

ever noticed how the sun and the moon are the same size in the sky?
what are the odds that that is a random FACT?

more like the solar system was designed, just like the laws of nature were designed.
pythagorus' triangle is more evidence.


thats great, so you promise to just try then?

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OK - the watchmaker argument - at least that has a few more legs than the god of the gaps. The argument does not have enough legs to stand on - but at least makes some good points instead of the "god did it" argument. An inference is not scientific evidence. We could have god without absolute logic and we could have absolute logic without god. Not sure where you see the two are inseparable as there is no evidence that either even exist - let alone dependent on one another.

Let's talk about odds. In an infinite universe, the nearly impossible becomes not only possible but likely. If the moon were a bit further or closer, we would choose some other celestial object with which to make the comparison and be amazed at the coincidence. The fact is, the moon is moving away from the Earth so in a short time (astronomically speaking) the moon will no longer be the same apparent size as the sun. No more total solar eclipses! so the random (yes it is random) fact will no longer be factual.. so is it a coincidence? I would say yes.

with all the things floating around out there it would be more amazing if these coincidences did NOT occur.


Perhaps the laws of nature must be the way they are in order for life to exist. Another words, a structured universe may have to exist in order for us to exist but that is hardly proof of god.

Or think about it this way... 99.99999999 (and many more 9's)% of the universe is hostile to humanity and would kill us nearly instantly. But black-holes thrive in our universe.

Logic would dictate that the universe is therefore here for black holes and humanity is just a by-product of black hole production.

An inference is not scientific evidence.

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we infered that the far side of the moon existed before we saw it empirically. yes inference is like belief, it is based on approximation and statistics for things outside of the tiny grasp of our little science.

We could have god without absolute logic and we could have absolute logic without god.

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thats like saying we can have shadow without light or wrong without right.

The moon is still poised mysteriously, what other celestial object would be the same size as the sun if we had no moon? even more mysterious.

More mystery is why the moon is moving away from the earth. Cosmic drag of all those meteors should have a slowing effect.

Another mystery is why the far side of the moon has far less craters than the near side which is less exposed due to the earths gravity.

Why are the meteors striking the near side of the moon so much more than the far side?

Now there IS a mystery. And the answer is because the moon's surface is made of SWISS cheese. (at least most of it is, gromit)

I'm wondering how you can marry being a ZenMaster with being a devout Christian?

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Zen is an ideal state of mind.
Grace is an ideal state of being.
Much of a muchness... but alas one hears not the crying questions of the heathens any longer!
Hark!
Is that a non-believer I see before me?
Nay it is but a computer driven AI component much like a ganglia of neurons wrapped in a pink mushy skin.
Alas! Wo is the world! The END is nigh, for none believeth in thou, o Lord of Hosts!
I'll have to puff some more of the Tree of Life!

via con Dios,
amigo

PoseidonsNet said:

we infered that the far side of the moon existed before we saw it empirically. yes inference is like belief, it is based on approximation and statistics for things outside of the tiny grasp of our little science.


thats like saying we can have shadow without light or wrong without right.

The moon is still poised mysteriously, what other celestial object would be the same size as the sun if we had no moon? even more mysterious.

More mystery is why the moon is moving away from the earth. Cosmic drag of all those meteors should have a slowing effect.

Another mystery is why the far side of the moon has far less craters than the near side which is less exposed due to the earths gravity.

Why are the meteors striking the near side of the moon so much more than the far side?

Now there IS a mystery. And the answer is because the moon's surface is made of SWISS cheese. (at least most of it is, gromit)

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These aren't mysteries at all. Either they are false assumptions or have natural explanations. I hardily recommend some science in your diet!

PoseidonsNet said:

we infered that the far side of the moon existed before we saw it empirically. yes inference is like belief, it is based on approximation and statistics for things outside of the tiny grasp of our little science.


thats like saying we can have shadow without light or wrong without right.

The moon is still poised mysteriously, what other celestial object would be the same size as the sun if we had no moon? even more mysterious.

More mystery is why the moon is moving away from the earth. Cosmic drag of all those meteors should have a slowing effect.

Another mystery is why the far side of the moon has far less craters than the near side which is less exposed due to the earths gravity.

Why are the meteors striking the near side of the moon so much more than the far side?

Now there IS a mystery. And the answer is because the moon's surface is made of SWISS cheese. (at least most of it is, gromit)

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Big difference between an inference and a prediction.

PoseidonsNet said:

Zen is an ideal state of mind.
Grace is an ideal state of being.
Much of a muchness... but alas one hears not the crying questions of the heathens any longer!
Hark!
Is that a non-believer I see before me?
Nay it is but a computer driven AI component much like a ganglia of neurons wrapped in a pink mushy skin.
Alas! Wo is the world! The END is nigh, for none believeth in thou, o Lord of Hosts!
I'll have to puff some more of the Tree of Life!

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Hmmmm. If there is a point here i am missing it.
I pray (haha) that you are not inferring a life without god means we are reduced to being mere automatons. That will change the nature of our conversation from a good-natured debate to my taking offense.

You should write a book email Or, you could write many books, whatever you choose.

We TaRdED said:

You should write a book email Or, you could write many books, whatever you choose.

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Thanks We TaRdED. I must concede that science does not know everything and there may come a time when science comes across phenomena that does not have any natural explanation. Another words, I could very well be wrong and others (like PoseidonsNet) could be very right. Living in uncertainty is one of the prices for following an evidence-based philosophy.

I hardily recommend some science in your diet!

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all I say can be explained in scientific terms, religious terms, statistical terms or logical terms.

Big difference between an inference and a prediction.

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- a small neglibible difference

a life without god means we are reduced to being mere automatons. That will change the nature of our conversation from a good-natured debate to my taking offense

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- well you said it -

a life without god means we are reduced to being mere automatons

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I never saw the reason in taking offence for the sake of any debate. Nonetheless, it seems you are bibliophobic, perhaps as a result of below average religious tuition?

The term 'God' means lots of things to lots of different people. By rejecting the use of the word, you inevitably are missing the storyline of this world. Debate what God means, even in raw secular terms, but how can you just brush aside most of this world's history, the very root of the language and literature you are using to express yourself?

One is either Christian, Muslim, Rastafari, or Heathen, make your choice!

PoseidonsNet said:

all I say can be explained in scientific terms, religious terms, statistical terms or logical terms.

- a small neglibible difference

- well you said it -

I never saw the reason in taking offence for the sake of any debate. Nonetheless, it seems you are bibliophobic, perhaps as a result of below average religious tuition?

The term 'God' means lots of things to lots of different people. By rejecting the use of the word, you inevitably are missing the storyline of this world. Debate what God means, even in raw secular terms, but how can you just brush aside most of this world's history, the very root of the language and literature you are using to express yourself?

One is either Christian, Muslim, Rastafari, or Heathen, make your choice!

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This world has a long history before we humans existed - what was god then? a force, a being, non-existent?

Go ahead and define god in scientific terms.

You can go ahead and choose for me as far as religion goes - i'll prefer to remain uncertain but pretty sure no interventionist sky god exists.

email468 said:

This world has a long history before we humans existed - what was god then? a force, a being, non-existent?

Go ahead and define god in scientific terms.

You can go ahead and choose for me as far as religion goes - i'll prefer to remain uncertain but pretty sure no interventionist sky god exists.

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You know it talks about dinosaurs in The Bible right?

ZenMaster said:

You know it talks about dinosaurs in The Bible right?

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I know the bible talks about whatever anyone wants it to talk about.

email468 said:

I know the bible talks about whatever anyone wants it to talk about.

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"Interesting, I wonder how people from way back then knew about dinosaurs.."

is what your supposed to say

Wow....lots of religious(semi-fanatical) people on this site. I just read through this whole thing and I just keep thinking back to Scientology....You know the religion that was started by the SCIENCE FICTION writer L.Ron.Hubbard, and that maybe in another 2000 years people will believe we're all infected with alien ghosts that an evil galactic entity trapped on this planet. And all that other crap he wrote....maybe Battlefield Earth will be the next Bible.....anyway religion in general is not my cup o tea, We're on this planet for a short time and I'd rather not waste my 10 minutes.

ZenMaster said:

"Interesting, I wonder how people from way back then knew about dinosaurs.."

is what your supposed to say

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sorry. Hmmm - I wonder how people from way back then knew about dinosaurs?

Well the bible talks about behemoths in Job which is believed to be the oldest book in the bible, but callin' em dinosaurs is just interpretation

email468 said:

This world has a long history before we humans existed - what was god then? a force, a being, non-existent?

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Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Malachi 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God can be defined as an omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient[SIZE=-1] entity that has always been and will always be, and he does not change.


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Yondaime said:

Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Malachi 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God can be defined as an omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient[SIZE=-1] entity that has always been and will always be, and he does not change.
[/SIZE]

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I read those quotes, but to me those are just words written by men that offer no proof, facts, or evidence. Just statements with no citations at all. You could just as easily quote the Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Book of Thoth, or Mark Twain and they are equally supported by the evidence... that is - not at all.

And how could he not change if he had a Son that was a human for awhile and now the human, the human's ghost (yeah right) and god are together again. That sounds like changing to me. He also changed his tune from "an eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek". He also made a few mistakes. The biggest one was putting a Tree of Knowledge right in the middle of Adam and Eve's territory and pretended like they wouldn't eat of the fruit. I mean come on god - everyone knows you tell kids not to do something ... what do they do?

email468 said:

I read those quotes, but to me those are just words written by men that offer no proof, facts, or evidence. Just statements with no citations at all. You could just as easily quote the Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Book of Thoth, or Mark Twain and they are equally supported by the evidence... that is - not at all.

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Sad but true

Find your inner God and cherish that. This universe is too complex for there not to be some kind of creator. Just look think about what was before the big bang- it was known as 'Singularity'. There is something, I'm just not sure what God actually is, myself.

I'm not saying religion is bad, but it has been used in deceitful ways to control people and 'impose' another tax on them. If you are religious, Just keep an open mind and think about all the different religions that think theirs is right/the way to heaven too..

My question is, which one is the gateway to heaven?

Start watching this vid at 18 mins Zeitgeist - The Movie

Peace