Can't progress past seedlings... #PYTHIUM

Hi all,

Unfortunately my first post is going to be about a problem that I currently have which is leaving me stumped, frustrated and in desperate need of help. This is not my first grow, I have done a few but never come across this issue before. My Problems are based around Pythium I believe. I'm going to give a fairly comprehensive round up of why I believe its pythium, my problems in the past and what techniques I have been using to try and fix my issue.

Basically after starting my seeds they fail to grow, by which I mean they look alright but just grow very very slowly so much so that I just end up pulling them after a week or so because they are so small and stunted. They take over 2 weeks to even get their 2nd set of proper leaves while exhibiting the traits of pythium infected plants. I have had pythium in all my previous grows due to bad environmental conditions. I have now built a much better room all air-conditioned and properly controlled etc. The seedlings seem to get pythium instantly before they are even placed into the system. This is whats getting me.

My System:

Its different to what you guys use as Im in Australia and the popular way to do it over here is with a satellite re-circulating system. Its basically pots (50/13gallon) filled with perlite which gets top feed with a sprinkler type setup and then drains back to a reservoir. Feed regimes are 15min every 4hours no feeds during lights off. This system has worked very successfully in the past so I don't believe this is the cause of any problems. My previous problems with pythium were because of excessive ambient temps and high water temps in the reservoir which I have now fixed with a properly setup air-conditioned room and a water chiller for the reservoir. All my environmentals are in check. Air temp = 26degree C (78.8F) My nutrient temp = 19 degrees C (66.2F)

I thought the pythium was possibly entering the rootzone of the seedlings before they are put into the system so I used tap water and treated it with chlorine in case I had pythium in my tap water, I used bottled RO water to feed the seedlings still no better. Each time Im starting fresh with new seeds and medium etc. The way I start my seeds hasn't changed from when I had semi successful grows so I don't think this is an issue either but here is the rundown on how I start my seeds.

Germinate seeds in wet paper towel in a Tupperware container, once root starts to show I then place the seed in a small (1 inch) rockwool cube that has been pre-soaked in ph adjusted water and then put the cube in the propagator under a flouro. Once a root appears out the bottom of the rockwool cube I put it into the perlite filled pot and into the system. By this stage they appear to be normal with their set of seedling leaves and small set of first leaves starting to grow. Not much else happens after that or what does happen is in super slo-mo and after a week they have barely progressed at all (first set of leaves aren't even fully grown.

Before I had these problems after one week of being in the system they should have had 4 sets or so of leaves and by the 2nd week of grown they would be about a foot or more tall and getting branches etc. The PH of the nutrient is what makes me sure its pythium because it fails to rise like it usually does. A healthy system will increase PH from 5.5-5.8 to around PH 8 or so in a 24hr period which is when I re-set the PH. Every time I got pythium problems in my previous grows the PH failing to rise significantly was the precursor of pythium symptoms which would then start to get worse over the next few weeks with no way for me to stop it (bad environmentals) I have fixed all environmental issues but now have this pythium problem which starts immediately after germination.

I have tried soaking my rockwool cubes in beneficial bacteria and fungi tea which I brewed from Great White beneficial bacteria and fungi and this still didn't help neither did presoaking the rockwool cubes in a systemic fungicide (fongarid).

I would greatly appreciate any assistance you guys may be able to offer

If you are starting with clean rockwool and a sterile environment I can't see how you'd keep having the same problem? Go back to how you used to do it, no pretreating the cubes or water with fungicide or chlorine. I'd flush out my entire system with a hydrogen peroxide solution. I say peroxide because you don't have to worry about getting it all rinsed out... it will slowly boil off in a few days. Since they seem to be fine until you put them in the system, I'd say its still something in your system.

If it were me, I'd ditch the rockwool cubes for root riot plugs. I know you say you've had success with rockwool before this issue and I know millions use it but I have never been impressed with it personally, so I tried the root riot plugs... never going back!!

I don't know what to tell you about the pH issue you talk about? What nutrients are you using? That seems like quite a bit of instability to me. The nutrients I'm using now hold the same pH for a week or till I change the reservoir.

Go back to basics if nothing else.

Try doing some research on EWC tea in your reservoir. I've read a lot of people brew their own and because of the sheer number of different microorganisms that the pythium is out competed for any small amount of resources. I've also read they allow their reservoirs to get up into the low 80s with no issues due to the tea.

Im so frustrated lol. I have gone over every aspect or so it seems to me.

I thought this time round I was doing it the 'original' way by using RO bottled water (what I always use to do) although I did add chlorine to the RO water at just over 2ppm...
Forgot to mention that I flush the system with bleach between attempts with crops and scrub everything down, floor, walls pots etc and rinse the system. I never payed as much attention to the sterilisation between crops before hand and pythium would only hit once conditions deteriorated. Is it possible I'm going overboard with sterilisation and adding too much chlorine to the water and not removing enough residue from cleaning?

What has me at a loss is why my grow is having such troubles when my whole setup is now finally optimised and I have everything in 'check' as such. My room is completely sealed and I'm using c02 to avoid any pests introduction through inlet air and to perfectly control ambient temp and humidity with air-conditioning and a water chiller for constant reservoir temps. I had one successful start to a crop in this room but suffered pythium at about 2 weeks old because I had set the ambient temp to 26 degrees (78.8F) with my reservoir at the same temp and no benes or sterilisation I think this warm nutrient temp caused my pythium issues. Point being that I was able to get much further along than I can now for some reason. I have also taken the system out of the equation by 'hand watering' the seedlings a couple of times a day and mixing fresh nutrient each time instead of running the system to water them. Still got the pythium. This is what led me on the track of the 'bad' tap water because I came to the conclusion that I had to be somehow introducing the pythium.

The nutrients I'm using are the same as always, they are called psyco. An Australian made product which seems to be widely used enough with good success to have my confidence. I only use rhizotonic (Canna) at 0.4EC for the first few days which has always worked well for me before I would then fill the reservoir with the psyco nutrients and everything would move along nicely with vigorous growth etc.

What are these 'root riot plugs' you speak of? like a jiffy pot kinda thing?

Thanks for the reply.

Earth... Worm... Casting... Tea.

I'll let you make your own choices now. Just saying, look at people using it in aerocloners. Fixed all their issues.

Do yourself a favor and get yourself some pondzyme, quickstart or equivelant like this http://carefreeenzymes.com/water-garden/pond-protector-concentrate . Also when you place the seeds in the paper towel method you can get some bleach and mix with water and then use this solution for the germination. I do have a question for you though? Are you reusing the perlite in your medium? If so this might be your problem.

Let's start off with a clean slate and look at the symptoms again. Basically your plants are growing too slow compared to what you've done in the past. It sounds like you know what you're doing so let's get rid of user error. It must be something else.

Are you sure the seedlings are being infected with a pathogen? It may be something else. Try doing an experiment. Use your current method for a couple of seeds and pop another couple of seeds in a good quality rooting plug like Rapid Rooter Plugs. Keep the plugs under a dome. After the seeds pop move the plugs into a good quality soil in 4" cups. Compare the results with your current method. Is one set doing better than the other? Do they both look healthy? If the soil plants are kicking ass and the hydro plants are lagging then something's fucked up. Mix up some of SubCool's Super Soil mix and keep the soil plants going to at least you have a harvest until you can figure out the problem.

Now the bad news... The best way to deal with root rot, powdery mildew and spider mites is to not get it in the first place. Once you have been infected all it takes is one spore or egg to reinfect everything again. It sounds like you started clean but think about how hard it is to kill every single microscopic spore. I'm sure you bleached the fuck out of everything three times but if you haven't then now is a good time to start. How clean does your room need to be. I should be able to come over and fry up a couple of eggs and throw them anywhere in the room and you'd eat them. I'd do it in my room! (over-easy please)

In all the cases I've seen of pythium wilt (damping off disease) it was caused by over watering and/or excess heat. The area infected turned to a soft, mushy slime. I've only seen it on the stems of plants and clones. It may be some other sort of pathogen. Remember, there are quite a few funky things out there that have no problem killing your plants and feasting on the remains.

Warm and wet is a disaster waiting to happen. It sounds like you took care of the heat so maybe it's something else. Are you sure it's a pathogen. I've never had much luck with rockwool although I know many have. Could be just simple over watering. You might try a different medium or just say fuck it all and just grow the plants in air.

You might want to try going sterile with synthetic nutes and Hydrogen Peroxide to keep everything nice and clean.

I do have to say some of the best tasting weed I've ever smoked was grown by a friend down in California. He grew OG Kush SFV cutting using the Australian brand, Bloom Advanced Floriculture nutrients using a modified StinkBud system. The nutes are made down in in your part of the world. Probably made from some kangaroo shit or something! Or maybe it's made like the Morgan Brothers Fertilizer in the Australian movie "100 Bloody Acres".

Good luck bro.

Southern_Lights said:

A healthy system will increase PH from 5.5-5.8 to around PH 8 or so in a 24hr period which is when I re-set the PH. Every time I got pythium problems in my previous grows the PH failing to rise significantly was the precursor of pythium symptoms which would then start to get worse over the next few weeks with no way for me to stop it (bad environmentals) I have fixed all environmental issues but now have this pythium problem which starts immediately after germination.

I used bottled RO water to feed the seedlings still no better. ..

Click to expand...

An increase from 5.8 to 8 does not describe a "healthy system". The what you refer to as failing to rise is probably just the root problems reducing nutrient uptake (which is what influences the pH, cation & anion exchange).

Pythium is everywhere and targets weak plants. Weak plants is usually a result of a bad nutrient regime (if temps and setup is physically good, watering...). How high EC do you give them after those initial days of canna ryzo?

Drain to waste , problem solved.

But seriously,

I don't like rockwool. Like @Sativied said Pythium is everywhere, and attacks weak plants. Seedlings are weak. You plant 50 seeds per run? Establish a mom in soil and use healthy clones.

- Jiji

LurchLurkin said:

Earth... Worm... Casting... Tea.

I'll let you make your own choices now. Just saying, look at people using it in aerocloners. Fixed all their issues.

Click to expand...

I did make a tea and have tried that after reading the thread on here about pyhtium by hisenberg I thinbk it was, however I didn't have access to EWC so just used Great White bacteria and fungi but now this girl I'm sorting seeing has bought a worm farm... Thinking I may need to see her again this arvo for some EWC to start a tea lol.

twistedwords said:

Do yourself a favor and get yourself some pondzyme, quickstart or equivelant like this http://carefreeenzymes.com/water-garden/pond-protector-concentrate . Also when you place the seeds in the paper towel method you can get some bleach and mix with water and then use this solution for the germination. I do have a question for you though? Are you reusing the perlite in your medium? If so this might be your problem.

Click to expand...

I did actually pick up some CannaZyme, but haven't used it yet. I was under the impression I could only use this with bennes and not while Im trying to go sterile but I'm thinking of testing for my chlorine levels making sure chlorine is all gone from my system and adding some cannazyme and see if is has any effects.

StinkBud said:

Let's start off with a clean slate and look at the symptoms again. Basically your plants are growing too slow compared to what you've done in the past. It sounds like you know what you're doing so let's get rid of user error. It must be something else.

Are you sure the seedlings are being infected with a pathogen? It may be something else. Try doing an experiment. Use your current method for a couple of seeds and pop another couple of seeds in a good quality rooting plug like Rapid Rooter Plugs. Keep the plugs under a dome. After the seeds pop move the plugs into a good quality soil in 4" cups. Compare the results with your current method. Is one set doing better than the other? Do they both look healthy? If the soil plants are kicking ass and the hydro plants are lagging then something's fucked up. Mix up some of SubCool's Super Soil mix and keep the soil plants going to at least you have a harvest until you can figure out the problem.

Now the bad news... The best way to deal with root rot, powdery mildew and spider mites is to not get it in the first place. Once you have been infected all it takes is one spore or egg to reinfect everything again. It sounds like you started clean but think about how hard it is to kill every single microscopic spore. I'm sure you bleached the fuck out of everything three times but if you haven't then now is a good time to start. How clean does your room need to be. I should be able to come over and fry up a couple of eggs and throw them anywhere in the room and you'd eat them. I'd do it in my room! (over-easy please)

In all the cases I've seen of pythium wilt (damping off disease) it was caused by over watering and/or excess heat. The area infected turned to a soft, mushy slime. I've only seen it on the stems of plants and clones. It may be some other sort of pathogen. Remember, there are quite a few funky things out there that have no problem killing your plants and feasting on the remains.

Warm and wet is a disaster waiting to happen. It sounds like you took care of the heat so maybe it's something else. Are you sure it's a pathogen. I've never had much luck with rockwool although I know many have. Could be just simple over watering. You might try a different medium or just say fuck it all and just grow the plants in air.

You might want to try going sterile with synthetic nutes and Hydrogen Peroxide to keep everything nice and clean.

I do have to say some of the best tasting weed I've ever smoked was grown by a friend down in California. He grew OG Kush SFV cutting using the Australian brand, Bloom Advanced Floriculture nutrients using a modified StinkBud system. The nutes are made down in in your part of the world. Probably made from some kangaroo shit or something! Or maybe it's made like the Morgan Brothers Fertilizer in the Australian movie "100 Bloody Acres".

Good luck bro.

Click to expand...

To be perfectly honest no Im not 100% sure its pythium but the PH change and the growth rates lead me to believe it is. These two traits are pythium through and through. I reckon its happening because the plats are small and 'defenceless' when they are seedlings so the opportunistic predator pythium can strike when they are fragile.

I'm tossing up with your idea of starting seeds in a soil medium as I have been thinking about this to try and rule out causes and narrow down my avenue of investigation but am hesitant to introduce soil into my grow room which I have been working so hard at keeping sterile and clean. Also when I have grown in the past I had not payed anywhere near as much attention to cleanliness etc and never struck this retarded problem during seedling phase, my causes of pythium had always been clean cut bad environmentals / conditions which had allowed pythium to take hold. Even still I was able to finish my crop (pretty shithouse) but was still much better weed than what anyone else can get over here because our quality of weed is pathetic which is why I originally started my grow-op because I just couldn't get any decent product and was sick of whinging about shit weed so the only option was for me to try and do something about it myself.

I have another 2 theory's.

1) I am over chlorinating because of my paranoia and causing damage to the root system of the seedlings.

2) My Rhizotonic is infected? is this even possible? its an organic nutrient made from algae, could I have accidentially introduced pythium into the bottle and am now adding pythium to my seedlings each time I feed them?

Sativied said:

An increase from 5.8 to 8 does not describe a "healthy system". The what you refer to as failing to rise is probably just the root problems reducing nutrient uptake (which is what influences the pH, cation & anion exchange).

Pythium is everywhere and targets weak plants. Weak plants is usually a result of a bad nutrient regime (if temps and setup is physically good, watering...). How high EC do you give them after those initial days of canna ryzo?

Click to expand...

I hear what your saying man, when I first started growing and saw the fluctuations in the PH I thought something wasn't right and that it shouldn't be happening but with the fluctuation in PH the plants were going fucking gangbusters and looked amazing! When the PH started to fluctuate less and less the plants started getting sicker and sicker so I did some research and found that dropping PH or PH not rising as much as usual was a sign of pythium in the system. After the initial days of hand watering I then fill the reservoir with tap water which in my area has an EC of .02 and I add nutrients until I get an EC of 0.6. I have tried increasing the EC higher but this seemed to make symptoms worse and it was clear they were being nute burned / locked out. Also this lowish EC was what I had always fed them (when I had success) and just slowly bumped it up each week as they got bigger.

Thanks again for all your replies, I appreciate your time and effort to offer me suggestions and help

some pics for you guys in the hope it may help with a diagnosis.

I think your problem could be that the rockwool gets waterlogged during the 15 minute top feeding cycle and never gets to dry out, drowning the roots in it and thus starting trouble. Try doing a grow without the rockwool, putting a seed germinated in a paper towel straight into perlite.

Spanky84 said:

I think your problem could be that the rockwool gets waterlogged during the 15 minute top feeding cycle and never gets to dry out, drowning the roots in it and thus starting trouble. Try doing a grow without the rockwool, putting a seed germinated in a paper towel straight into perlite.

Click to expand...

I don't think this is the case, I have checked the rockwoll between feeds and it never gets too wet at all. The sprayer is not very close to the rockwool cube and it only absorbs moisture through the perlite (rockwool cube never gets directly wet). This time round I went really light on the watering so much so that the seedling started wilting and I checked the cube and it was barely moist at all, after re-hydrating the cube the seedling picked up (stoped wilting) but still hasn't grown.

Im thinking of changing my system to a 'run to waste' setup. Instead of having 15 min feeds every 4 hours with the excess returning back to the reservoir I'm thinking along the lines of 10sec feeds every hour or so and catching the run-off in a bucket and disposing of it instead of returning it to the reservoir like in the recycling system.

Thoughts?

I really love hydrogen peroxide. its not particularly cheap, and it does kill beneficial and malignant microbes alike, but you can add 3ml per gallon of 30% hydrogen peroxide everyday and it will keep your reservoir clean.
If there is no infection in your water and u still have this problem you know its something else.