Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
Have you been reading? You, too, are confusing the flag and the Confederacy for standing directly for slavery. That is not the case. It was a secondary factor, yes, but their reasoning was more important than that.
Can anyone passionately and intelligently explain what Southern pride in relation to the Rebel flag
- Thread starter bundee1
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Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
Do I agree or sympathize with the Confederacy? Only so far as to say that they deserve to preserve the memory of the honorable side of what they fought for. And there was a noble, yet misguided, reason for their plight.
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
Slavery was the primary factor. It is what the Civil War was about. And no amount of revisionist history will change that.
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
Both sides thought they were preserving Freedom and the American ideal. Obviously, the South was wrong, because slavery is not freedom and a black man is an equal to a white man, is equal to an Asian man, is equal to a Pashtun. Like I said, noble, but misguided.
cat of curiosity
Well-Known Member
there were many flags. these are only a few of them. each has a history, and story behind it. i find history fascinating, and i look at it from an outsider's perspective.
and from reading this thread, i think several members here need to pick up a history book, so they know what they are actually talking about.
slavery is abhorrent, but so is ignorance. please know history before spouting off about stupid things like racist flags.
and from reading this thread, i think several members here need to pick up a history book, so they know what they are actually talking about.
slavery is abhorrent, but so is ignorance. please know history before spouting off about stupid things like racist flags.
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
It isn't revisionist history, but I'll agree to disagree with you. You're both clearly set in your opinion, and I have no right to persuade you, and no way to reason with you. I'm just telling you like it is, from what I see.
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue.
It's in the first paragraph of South Carolinas declaration of succession
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
You just proved my point. Freedom was primary, slaveholding was secondary.
You mean that Confederate flag/ Southen Pride has nothing to do with poor Southern whites being given a slightly higher rung on the socio-economic ladder than enslaved blacks and then having that taken away by Northerners thus making them bitter and an easy target for the Republicans and the far right to exploit?
I don't see many Cadillacs or BMWs (from Ashley Schaeffer BMW of course) driving around with the Confederate flag.
I don't see many Cadillacs or BMWs (from Ashley Schaeffer BMW of course) driving around with the Confederate flag.
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
Slaveholding was a misguided notion of freedom that Southerners held, but it was their lifestyle they were trying to preserve.
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
What in the fuck are you even talking about? Poor Southern white boys aren't higher on the socio-economic latter, save through the assholes who DO subscribe to your notion of what the South was about, and to the Black people being oppressed, and in THOSE cases, your anger is warranted. Government officials should not be oppressing any person.
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
Freedom to own other human beings?
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
Not racism. You're completely confusing the two. They are associated in a way, but that was not the reason for slaveholding anyway. The reason for holding slaves in the first place was for their way of life. Slavery and racism are two different concepts. Racism became full-fledged AFTER the war.
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
You're mistaking me for agreeing with that bullshit. I'm just saying that it contributed to their way of life. Not that it was right.
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
Regardless, the Confederacy fought for what their perception of Freedom was, NOT because they hated African-Americans, which is what true racism is.
You think poor whites voting Republican against their best interests has no racial undertones or overtones? Come on papa. They do it to screw minorities getting the same benefits they are. Are you sure there is no bitter carryover from the civil war from descendants of the original debtors and criminals who colonized these parts?
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
So fix the future, don't censor the past or oppress the present.
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
READ IT
A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.
In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.
That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.
The hostility to this institution commenced before the adoption of the Constitution, and was manifested in the well-known Ordinance of 1787, in regard to the Northwestern Territory.
The feeling increased, until, in 1819-20, it deprived the South of more than half the vast territory acquired from France.
The same hostility dismembered Texas and seized upon all the territory acquired from Mexico.
It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.
It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.
It tramples the original equality of the South under foot.
It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.
It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.
It has enlisted its press, its pulpit and its schools against us, until the whole popular mind of the North is excited and inflamed with prejudice.
It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.
It seeks not to elevate or to support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better.
It has invaded a State, and invested with the honors of martyrdom the wretch whose purpose was to apply flames to our dwellings, and the weapons of destruction to our lives.
It has broken every compact into which it has entered for our security.
It has given indubitable evidence of its design to ruin our agriculture, to prostrate our industrial pursuits and to destroy our social system.
It knows no relenting or hesitation in its purposes; it stops not in its march of aggression, and leaves us no room to hope for cessation or for pause.
It has recently obtained control of the Government, by the prosecution of its unhallowed schemes, and destroyed the last expectation of living together in friendship and brotherhood.
Utter subjugation awaits us in the Union, if we should consent longer to remain in it. It is not a matter of choice, but of necessity. We must either submit to degradation, and to the loss of property worth four billions of money, or we must secede from the Union framed by our fathers, to secure this as well as every other species of property. For far less cause than this, our fathers separated from the Crown of England.
Our decision is made. We follow their footsteps. We embrace the alternative of separation; and for the reasons here stated, we resolve to maintain our rights with the full consciousness of the justice of our course, and the undoubting belief of our ability to maintain it.
A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.
In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.
That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.
The hostility to this institution commenced before the adoption of the Constitution, and was manifested in the well-known Ordinance of 1787, in regard to the Northwestern Territory.
The feeling increased, until, in 1819-20, it deprived the South of more than half the vast territory acquired from France.
The same hostility dismembered Texas and seized upon all the territory acquired from Mexico.
It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.
It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.
It tramples the original equality of the South under foot.
It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.
It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.
It has enlisted its press, its pulpit and its schools against us, until the whole popular mind of the North is excited and inflamed with prejudice.
It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.
It seeks not to elevate or to support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better.
It has invaded a State, and invested with the honors of martyrdom the wretch whose purpose was to apply flames to our dwellings, and the weapons of destruction to our lives.
It has broken every compact into which it has entered for our security.
It has given indubitable evidence of its design to ruin our agriculture, to prostrate our industrial pursuits and to destroy our social system.
It knows no relenting or hesitation in its purposes; it stops not in its march of aggression, and leaves us no room to hope for cessation or for pause.
It has recently obtained control of the Government, by the prosecution of its unhallowed schemes, and destroyed the last expectation of living together in friendship and brotherhood.
Utter subjugation awaits us in the Union, if we should consent longer to remain in it. It is not a matter of choice, but of necessity. We must either submit to degradation, and to the loss of property worth four billions of money, or we must secede from the Union framed by our fathers, to secure this as well as every other species of property. For far less cause than this, our fathers separated from the Crown of England.
Our decision is made. We follow their footsteps. We embrace the alternative of separation; and for the reasons here stated, we resolve to maintain our rights with the full consciousness of the justice of our course, and the undoubting belief of our ability to maintain it.