breeding techniques

kona gold

kona gold

Well-Known Member
Ok.
So I am going through alot of seed breeders and their strain descriptions and some even how they made the strain. Males and females used.
I am seeing more and more "breeders" using multiple males to a specific female, or even multiple females!
Why is this breeding nightmare happening!?!
It's not like a landrace thing, or to preserve an exceptional strain.....
Please stop this even further weakening of the cannabis gene pool!!!!
If I were to use multiple males, how can I have a specific goal on mind? The end result would be all over the place! How could you know what male contributed what! And if one male has a recessive herm gene, we get fucked!
Maybe that's why so Mich herming is going on, and potency starts waining.

On a side note, if anyone wants to discuss breeding techniques of their own, this could be the place to do it.
 
eastcoastmo

eastcoastmo

Well-Known Member
I'm no beeeder but I have made seeds before. While I do use multiple females, I only ever use one male and I label the females so I know which is which. I then go through multiple seeds from each fenale (labelled of course) to determine which female passed on the traits I wanted. Using multiple males and multiple females would be an open pollination, would it not?
 
LegalizeNature420

LegalizeNature420

Well-Known Member
I hunt for a female before using a male from a strain that is relatively stabilized and consistent. For instance, I grew out a Blue Moonshine/Blueberry/OG Kush cross and until I found the female I wanted it, then hit her with a Grand Daddy Purp male. One of the two resulting phenos was as I'd hoped: Purple, fruity and potent with an almost pure cerebral buzz. That is where the breeding ends, as I keep it as clone for smoke.

Photo0798.jpgPhoto0879 (1).jpg
 
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Amos Otis

Amos Otis

Well-Known Member
In just a couple more days, I'm hitting a clone of an excellent goji w/ some GA3 to make pollen to hit two other fem goji clones from the same mom. Will also surround the f/m goji w/ clones of other fems I'm running now [not tried], and some reg seedlings w/ the hope some will be girls. If all goes well, should have some girl gojis, and girl gojis of orange, blackberry, blue cheese, grape cheese, livers, cherry, and chocolate persuasions. No selection process here - just taking advantage of Aug and Sept back porch weather to experiment a little. I'll consider it a success if only that great goji mom makes it to fem beans. The rest would be gravy, and something cool to pass around to the cats that come and go on RIU looking for handouts and favors.
 
W

waterproof808

Well-Known Member
kona gold said:
Ok.
I am seeing more and more "breeders" using multiple males to a specific female, or even multiple females!
Why is this breeding nightmare happening!?!
It's not like a landrace thing, or to preserve an exceptional strain.....
Please stop this even further weakening of the cannabis gene pool!!!!
If I were to use multiple males, how can I have a specific goal on mind? The end result would be all over the place! How could you know what male contributed what! And if one male has a recessive herm gene, we get fucked!
.
Click to expand...
People sometimes use multiple males of the same seed stock to prevent genetic bottlenecking. I think breeders today are more interested in creating unique phenotypes that could potentially become elite clones, rather than producing stable, True-breeding varieties. In the past, there wasn't as much access to clone-only's so more breeders used to work on creating true breeding varieties. Nowadays, you can just go to a club and pick up a handful of clones that people used to hoard...so there is less emphasis on trying to get clone-only's in seed form and more people I think looking to get lucky and create the next hot strain.

Multiple females is how most seed companies work once they've found a proven male that produces good offspring...just hit every elite clone in the garden with it. Gage green was using the joseph OG male for a minute and hitting everything with it.
 
safety meeting

safety meeting

Active Member
I am just wondering how open pollinated outcrosses in a dioecious species is "bottlenecking".

Inbreeding is a form of bottlenecking.
Homozygosity could be a sign.

Market demands and genetics. Two Entirely different concepts.

Are you saying that polyhybrid outcrosses bottleneck Cannabis DNA? :)
 
W

waterproof808

Well-Known Member
safety meeting said:
I am just wondering how open pollinated outcrosses in a dioecious species is "bottlenecking".

Inbreeding is a form of bottlenecking.
Homozygosity could be a sign.

Market demands and genetics. Two Entirely different concepts.

Are you saying that polyhybrid outcrosses bottleneck Cannabis DNA? :)
Click to expand...
No, I'm just replying to the OP with what I have heard other "breeders" say regarding their use of multiple males on a single female. Their reasoning is they want greater genetic diversity...the shoot from the hip approach.
 
safety meeting

safety meeting

Active Member
waterproof808 said:
No, I'm just replying to the OP with what I have heard other "breeders" say regarding their use of multiple males on a single female. Their reasoning is they want greater genetic diversity...the shoot from the hip approach.
Click to expand...
I guess I kind of get it, but maybe you can elaborate on your shoot from the hip approach......

We are dealing with mainly dioecy, so I don't see how it relates honestly.....but maybe I missed something. Open pollination of a dioecious species in theory Does create more diversity. But that isn't really what the cannabis market is after. So I can see the conflict from that standpoint of shoot from the hip?.....probably got it wrong, shit happens :peace:
 
safety meeting

safety meeting

Active Member
@OP

I am also going on the assumption that landraces are for the most part a gimmick. They are inbred polyhybrids themselves. The plant has been around long before humans, but the diversity J curve skyrocketed once we, Man, got our, Hand, on the plant. At least we assume its diversity increased considerably over the last 10k years....I see really a question of breeding for market versus actually following some kind of genetic follow thru.

You can create a landrace in 10 generation of so, I have seen indoor lines with triple that in time indoors...conserving landraces is at the expensive of diversity, but if its the plant you like, it will be be quality, generally, that is awhole nother talk of drift and epigen and such. :peace:

creating diversity IS at the expense of homozygosity. Inbreeding is at the expense of heterozygosity.
Thats just a rule I didn't make up.

The circle continues and sorry to pontificate, good dry sift this morn :leaf:
 
kona gold

kona gold

Well-Known Member
eastcoastmo said:
I'm no beeeder but I have made seeds before. While I do use multiple females, I only ever use one male and I label the females so I know which is which. I then go through multiple seeds from each fenale (labelled of course) to determine which female passed on the traits I wanted. Using multiple males and multiple females would be an open pollination, would it not?
Click to expand...
You are correct. What your doing is breeding.
 
kona gold

kona gold

Well-Known Member
LegalizeNature420 said:
I hunt for a female before using a male from a strain that is relatively stabilized and consistent. For instance, I grew out a Blue Moonshine/Blueberry/OG Kush cross and until I found the female I wanted it, then hit her with a Grand Daddy Purp male. One of the two resulting phenos was as I'd hoped: Purple, fruity and potent with an almost pure cerebral buzz. That is where the breeding ends, as I keep it as clone for smoke.

View attachment 3741901View attachment 3741910
Click to expand...
That sounds pretty awesome!

I like your patience in selecting.
 
kona gold

kona gold

Well-Known Member
Amos Otis said:
In just a couple more days, I'm hitting a clone of an excellent goji w/ some GA3 to make pollen to hit two other fem goji clones from the same mom. Will also surround the f/m goji w/ clones of other fems I'm running now [not tried], and some reg seedlings w/ the hope some will be girls. If all goes well, should have some girl gojis, and girl gojis of orange, blackberry, blue cheese, grape cheese, livers, cherry, and chocolate persuasions. No selection process here - just taking advantage of Aug and Sept back porch weather to experiment a little. I'll consider it a success if only that great goji mom makes it to fem beans. The rest would be gravy, and something cool to pass around to the cats that come and go on RIU looking for handouts and favors.
Click to expand...
Hand outs and favors is my middle name when it comes to some of those possibilities!
Always interested to see what your creating.
 
kona gold

kona gold

Well-Known Member
waterproof808 said:
People sometimes use multiple males of the same seed stock to prevent genetic bottlenecking. I think breeders today are more interested in creating unique phenotypes that could potentially become elite clones, rather than producing stable, True-breeding varieties. In the past, there wasn't as much access to clone-only's so more breeders used to work on creating true breeding varieties. Nowadays, you can just go to a club and pick up a handful of clones that people used to hoard...so there is less emphasis on trying to get clone-only's in seed form and more people I think looking to get lucky and create the next hot strain.

Multiple females is how most seed companies work once they've found a proven male that produces good offspring...just hit every elite clone in the garden with it. Gage green was using the joseph OG male for a minute and hitting everything with it.
Click to expand...
Yes, you shed light on many good points.
I think the term bottlenecking is not really understood.
Some seed bank breeder uses the term in a description, and people seem to follow suit.
Bottlenecking is for preservation of a certain stable line, not as a way to hybridize a hybrid.
If you know what I mean
 
kona gold

kona gold

Well-Known Member
safety meeting said:
I am just wondering how open pollinated outcrosses in a dioecious species is "bottlenecking".

Inbreeding is a form of bottlenecking.
Homozygosity could be a sign.

Market demands and genetics. Two Entirely different concepts.

Are you saying that polyhybrid outcrosses bottleneck Cannabis DNA? :)
Click to expand...
This is pretty much the problem I was mentioning.
A clone only is not a stable line.
 
kona gold

kona gold

Well-Known Member
safety meeting said:
@OP

I am also going on the assumption that landraces are for the most part a gimmick. They are inbred polyhybrids themselves. The plant has been around long before humans, but the diversity J curve skyrocketed once we, Man, got our, Hand, on the plant. At least we assume its diversity increased considerably over the last 10k years....I see really a question of breeding for market versus actually following some kind of genetic follow thru.

You can create a landrace in 10 generation of so, I have seen indoor lines with triple that in time indoors...conserving landraces is at the expensive of diversity, but if its the plant you like, it will be be quality, generally, that is awhole nother talk of drift and epigen and such. :peace:

creating diversity IS at the expense of homozygosity. Inbreeding is at the expense of heterozygosity.
Thats just a rule I didn't make up.

The circle continues and sorry to pontificate, good dry sift this morn :leaf:
Click to expand...
Pontificate away!
So are you trying to illuminate us to such an idea that landraces aren't stable lines!?! :-)
That if I buy a ten pack from Ace, that I won't have 10 homogeneous results!?! :-)
Sorry Ace, but come on!
 
GreenSanta

GreenSanta

Well-Known Member
To the OP: ever heard of hybrid vigor? You wouldn't like the way i do things. Ever heard of the genome project? We are not weakening the gene pool, nothing is lost, all information is stored in plant DNA. Ever seen a pretty girl, like the most beautiful thing you have ever seen? That didn't happen with in-breeding and there is only one of her... that's what i am after. Super poly hybrid to the max is how I create seeds that will allow me to find the prettiest one.
 
kona gold

kona gold

Well-Known Member
GreenSanta said:
To the OP: ever heard of hybrid vigor? You wouldn't like the way i do things. Ever heard of the genome project? We are not weakening the gene pool, nothing is lost, all information is stored in plant DNA. Ever seen a pretty girl, like the most beautiful thing you have ever seen? That didn't happen with in-breeding and there is only one of her... that's what i am after. Super poly hybrid to the max is how I create seeds that will allow me to find the prettiest one.
Click to expand...
Yes, hybrid vigor happens when you have two stable inbred lines, and you cross those lines.
That supports what I'm saying.
Not sure what your trying to say?
I like super polyhybrids. That's not what I'm getting at.
What my complaint was that multiple males of unknown trait quality, are just mixed with a clone only.
Sure the DNA is still in the strain, but might not surface much due to recessiveness.
This only applies to breeders selling seeds to the masses. Weakening the gene pool.
Not home breeders, I encourage experimentation, and researching new techniques to further strengthen the pool.
I would like to hear more about the genome project, if you want to share.
 
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