AZ GOP/tea party quashes free speech

Glaucoma

Well-Known Member
The language in that bill is slightly ambiguous, and can be left for some interpretation. If you don't agree with that, then I'm not sure we have a basis for debate.

If however, we can agree that as a basis for debate, that parts of that bill can be left to interpretation. I feel like you conceded to that fact earlier, maybe I was unclear on your assessment. That being said, if the basis is that, then, "facts aren't facts", in this case.
I said facts are facts in the context of the study showing trolls exhibit a high degree of sadism,
Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy. The cancer part also was a reference on the large digital footprint people like that have. It's all in the study. Plus, he's readily admitted to everything they indicate in it. From his enjoyment in it to following people all over the net. It's not defamation. Dude is sick.

As far as the language, I concede to F needing some work. It feels like an excuse when it's actually a 'way out' loophole put in there on purpose.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
I said facts are facts in the context of the study showing trolls exhibit a high degree of sadism,
Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy. The cancer part also was a reference on the large digital footprint people like that have. It's all in the study. Plus, he's readily admitted to everything they indicate in it. From his enjoyment in it to following people all over the net. It's not defamation. Dude is sick.

As far as the language, I concede to F needing some work. It feels like an excuse when it's actually a 'way out' loophole put in there on purpose.
oh no, sadism! some internet troll is making you all sore in the doopah!

that's almost as bad as fining teachers $5,000 if they dare speak out against your anti-education agenda.
 

Glaucoma

Well-Known Member
oh no, sadism! some internet troll is making you all sore in the doopah!

that's almost as bad as fining teachers $5,000 if they dare speak out against your anti-education agenda.
Looks like you found the reset button already.

Did you forget that we already covered this and you clearly couldn't back up a single claim? Of course you didn't. You are mentally ill, not retarded. .. right?
 

Glaucoma

Well-Known Member
so teachers in arizona aren't being threatened with a $5000 fine if they speak out against the GOP/tea party anti-education agenda?
So mentally ill it is.

Why is it you keep omitting the part where this only applies to faculty on the clock and/or using school resources to do so? Where does it say they can't speak out against anything on their own time, with their own resources?

Prediction: Nothing to back up your claims combined with lots of pretending like I'm upset, likely followed by the 2nd jerk off session of the day watching torture porn.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
So mentally ill it is.

Why is it you keep omitting the part where this only applies to faculty on the clock and/or using school resources to do so? Where does it say they can't speak out against anything on their own time, with their own resources?

Prediction: Nothing to back up your claims combined with lots of pretending like I'm upset, likely followed by the 2nd jerk off session of the day watching torture porn.
yeah, it's totally cool to limit their freedom of speech as long as it's in a way that you personally approve of because your teabagging buddies said so. i think that's even in the constitution.
 

Glaucoma

Well-Known Member
yeah, it's totally cool to limit their freedom of speech as long as it's in a way that you personally approve of because your teabagging buddies said so. i think that's even in the constitution.
What was that? You've got absolutely nothing to back up your claims? More baseless insults?



SSSSSSssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhocking.
 

see4

Well-Known Member
What was that? You've got absolutely nothing to back up your claims? More baseless insults?



SSSSSSssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhocking.
He keeps repeating it, because he wants you to go look it up for yourself. But here, I've done a very nice copy and paste for you detailing exactly confirming what UB has stated....

“Duct-tape bills” pending in Kansas and Arizona would prohibit teachers from speaking out about politics—particularly issues related to school funding.

The Arizona bill, SB 1172, passed the state Senate Feb. 23, won a preliminary vote in the House March 26, and is expected to come up for a final vote in the House this week. Under it, school employees would not be allowed to “distribute written or electronic materials to influence the outcome of an election or to advocate support for or opposition to pending or proposed legislation.”

“The bill clarifies that we are talking about advocacy for proposed legislation,” Sen. Kimberly Yee (R-Phoenix), its main sponsor, told the Associated Press. And under an amendment sponsored by Rep. Anthony Kern (R-Glendale), any school employee who did speak out could be fined up to $5,000. “If they are going to act as a teacher, which is paid for by the taxpayers, they should not be doing any political activity,” Kern told the AP.

It’s primarily intended to prevent teachers and school officials from campaigning for more funding or speaking out against budget cuts, which have been a major issue in Arizona. In February, 233 school-district superintendents signed a letter to the state legislature urging it to reject Gov. Doug Ducey’s budget proposal, which would cut school funding by $120 per pupil and “further erode the instructional time and direct services available to our classroom.”

“This bill is basically putting a gag order on school officials when it comes to providing any kind of information that is factual to stakeholders,” Heidi Vega, a spokeswoman for the Arizona School Boards Association, told the AP. “We wouldn’t be able to provide information on what programs would be cut.”

“If the bill passes I’d guess the legislature (which hasn’t funded our schools) wouldn’t foot the bill for the mouth-closing material necessary to silence the state’s many hard-working school officials,” columnist E.J. Montini wrote in the Arizona Republic. “They’d have to buy their own duct tape.”

In Kansas, House Bill 2234 would make it illegal for employees of state colleges or universities from writing opinion pieces or letters to the editor in newspapers while identifying themselves with their official titles. The law applies if they are writing about anything that “concerns a person who currently holds any elected public office in this state, a person who is a candidate for any elected public office in this state, or any matter pending before any legislative or public body in this state.”

As Dr. Mark Peterson, chair of the political science department at Washburn University in Topeka, put it on Kansas Public Radio, “if I wrote a newspaper column expressing how ridiculous this proposal is, I would be prohibited from using my title.” He believes the bill is intended to “muzzle” Insight Kansas, a weekly blog in which he and several other political-science professors produce newspaper commentaries on state politics—such as an October 2014 column accusing Secretary of State Kris Kobach, “a noted voter-fraud alarmist,” of perpetrating fraud himself by “trumped-up claims of fraud, used to justify policies suppressing legitimate votes.”

State Representatives Joe Seiwert and Virgil Peck, the bill’s main advocates, “report that they are tired of our columns criticizing the Legislature’s and governor’s actions,” Insight Kansas columnist Michael A. Smith wrote in a February column in which he also spoke of appearing “on Wichita television stating that I ‘may or may not be’ a faculty member at a state university, while the host suggested I wear a paper bag over my head.” But “What is happening to Kansas is not funny,” Smith added.

The bill wouldn’t prohibit professors from writing such articles without mentioning where they work. But it would prohibit them from using the common citizen-journalist practice of mentioning one’s work or status to show that you have direct knowledge of or expertise in the area you’re talking about.

So it would outlaw—quite conceivably intentionally—letters and articles in the vein of “As a professor at Pratt Community College in Wichita, I have seen firsthand the devastating effect of Gov. Sam Brownback’s drastic cuts to higher-education funding” or “As a professor of paleobiology at the University of Kansas, I can only see the efforts of the Citizens for Objective Public Education to stop the teaching of evolution in our public schools as evidence that some human beings are both ignorant of trilobites and as ignorant as trilobites.”

(The usual journalistic practice in such cases is to include a disclaimer saying that the views expressed are those of the author and not necessarily those of the institution.)

HB 2234 may not go very far, however. The House Education Committee held a hearing on it Feb. 13, but has not voted on it yet. Rep. Peck, who introduced it, is now saying that while he supports it, he’s not the sponsor.

In any case, it is likely unconstitutional, Penn State education professor Neal H. Hutchens argues in theChronicle of Higher Education:

In Pickering v. Board of Education, decided in 1968, the U.S. Supreme Court held that a public-school teacher’s speech in the form of a letter to the editor qualified for First Amendment protection. In that case, the teacher wrote to criticize budgetary decisions of the school district in which he taught.

In sum, when speaking in their private capacity, public employees possess significant First Amendment rights to share their views on matters of public concern. Such safeguards also encompass instances, as in Pickering, when the public employee speaks out about his or her employer. While a public employer can proffer a justification to restrict that type of private employee speech under limited circumstances, the speech presumptively receives First Amendment protection.

For First Amendment purposes, a public employee speaking as a private citizen differs markedly from an individual speaking in the course of performing job duties…. the Kansas bill has nothing to do with employee speech arising from the performance of job duties. Instead, it seeks to restrict individuals employed at public colleges and universities in Kansas from sharing a certain kind of information — their official title — when speaking as private citizens.
 

Glaucoma

Well-Known Member
He keeps repeating it, because he wants you to go look it up for yourself. But here, I've done a very nice copy and paste for you detailing exactly confirming what UB has stated....

“Duct-tape bills” pending in Kansas and Arizona would prohibit teachers from speaking out about politics—particularly issues related to school funding.

The Arizona bill, SB 1172, passed the state Senate Feb. 23, won a preliminary vote in the House March 26, and is expected to come up for a final vote in the House this week. Under it, school employees would not be allowed to “distribute written or electronic materials to influence the outcome of an election or to advocate support for or opposition to pending or proposed legislation.”

“The bill clarifies that we are talking about advocacy for proposed legislation,” Sen. Kimberly Yee (R-Phoenix), its main sponsor, told the Associated Press. And under an amendment sponsored by Rep. Anthony Kern (R-Glendale), any school employee who did speak out could be fined up to $5,000. “If they are going to act as a teacher, which is paid for by the taxpayers, they should not be doing any political activity,” Kern told the AP.

It’s primarily intended to prevent teachers and school officials from campaigning for more funding or speaking out against budget cuts, which have been a major issue in Arizona. In February, 233 school-district superintendents signed a letter to the state legislature urging it to reject Gov. Doug Ducey’s budget proposal, which would cut school funding by $120 per pupil and “further erode the instructional time and direct services available to our classroom.”

“This bill is basically putting a gag order on school officials when it comes to providing any kind of information that is factual to stakeholders,” Heidi Vega, a spokeswoman for the Arizona School Boards Association, told the AP. “We wouldn’t be able to provide information on what programs would be cut.”

“If the bill passes I’d guess the legislature (which hasn’t funded our schools) wouldn’t foot the bill for the mouth-closing material necessary to silence the state’s many hard-working school officials,” columnist E.J. Montini wrote in the Arizona Republic. “They’d have to buy their own duct tape.”

In Kansas, House Bill 2234 would make it illegal for employees of state colleges or universities from writing opinion pieces or letters to the editor in newspapers while identifying themselves with their official titles. The law applies if they are writing about anything that “concerns a person who currently holds any elected public office in this state, a person who is a candidate for any elected public office in this state, or any matter pending before any legislative or public body in this state.”

As Dr. Mark Peterson, chair of the political science department at Washburn University in Topeka, put it on Kansas Public Radio, “if I wrote a newspaper column expressing how ridiculous this proposal is, I would be prohibited from using my title.” He believes the bill is intended to “muzzle” Insight Kansas, a weekly blog in which he and several other political-science professors produce newspaper commentaries on state politics—such as an October 2014 column accusing Secretary of State Kris Kobach, “a noted voter-fraud alarmist,” of perpetrating fraud himself by “trumped-up claims of fraud, used to justify policies suppressing legitimate votes.”

State Representatives Joe Seiwert and Virgil Peck, the bill’s main advocates, “report that they are tired of our columns criticizing the Legislature’s and governor’s actions,” Insight Kansas columnist Michael A. Smith wrote in a February column in which he also spoke of appearing “on Wichita television stating that I ‘may or may not be’ a faculty member at a state university, while the host suggested I wear a paper bag over my head.” But “What is happening to Kansas is not funny,” Smith added.

The bill wouldn’t prohibit professors from writing such articles without mentioning where they work. But it would prohibit them from using the common citizen-journalist practice of mentioning one’s work or status to show that you have direct knowledge of or expertise in the area you’re talking about.

So it would outlaw—quite conceivably intentionally—letters and articles in the vein of “As a professor at Pratt Community College in Wichita, I have seen firsthand the devastating effect of Gov. Sam Brownback’s drastic cuts to higher-education funding” or “As a professor of paleobiology at the University of Kansas, I can only see the efforts of the Citizens for Objective Public Education to stop the teaching of evolution in our public schools as evidence that some human beings are both ignorant of trilobites and as ignorant as trilobites.”

(The usual journalistic practice in such cases is to include a disclaimer saying that the views expressed are those of the author and not necessarily those of the institution.)

HB 2234 may not go very far, however. The House Education Committee held a hearing on it Feb. 13, but has not voted on it yet. Rep. Peck, who introduced it, is now saying that while he supports it, he’s not the sponsor.

In any case, it is likely unconstitutional, Penn State education professor Neal H. Hutchens argues in theChronicle of Higher Education:

In Pickering v. Board of Education, decided in 1968, the U.S. Supreme Court held that a public-school teacher’s speech in the form of a letter to the editor qualified for First Amendment protection. In that case, the teacher wrote to criticize budgetary decisions of the school district in which he taught.

In sum, when speaking in their private capacity, public employees possess significant First Amendment rights to share their views on matters of public concern. Such safeguards also encompass instances, as in Pickering, when the public employee speaks out about his or her employer. While a public employer can proffer a justification to restrict that type of private employee speech under limited circumstances, the speech presumptively receives First Amendment protection.

For First Amendment purposes, a public employee speaking as a private citizen differs markedly from an individual speaking in the course of performing job duties…. the Kansas bill has nothing to do with employee speech arising from the performance of job duties. Instead, it seeks to restrict individuals employed at public colleges and universities in Kansas from sharing a certain kind of information — their official title — when speaking as private citizens.
So then you will have no problem showing me in the actual bill where it says all of this. Where does it say "It’s primarily intended to prevent teachers and school officials from campaigning for more funding or speaking out against budget cuts"?

I don't care about an opinion piece. I care about what's in the bill.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Where does it say "It’s primarily intended to prevent teachers and school officials from campaigning for more funding or speaking out against budget cuts"?
oh, i see the problem.

you need an iota of common sense to figure that out, and you are lacking completely in that department.
 

see4

Well-Known Member
So then you will have no problem showing me in the actual bill where it says all of this. Where does it say "It’s primarily intended to prevent teachers and school officials from campaigning for more funding or speaking out against budget cuts"?

I don't care about an opinion piece. I care about what's in the bill.
I take it you don't hold a law degree, nor have been in a court room? You seem to think law is never left for interpretation. A juror must weigh evidence presented to them against what the law specifically states, but defense and prosecution and judges can interpret it anyway they like, unless there is precedence.
 

Glaucoma

Well-Known Member
I take it you don't hold a law degree, nor have been in a court room? You seem to think law is never left for interpretation. A juror must weigh evidence presented to them against what the law specifically states, but defense and prosecution and judges can interpret it anyway they like, unless there is precedence.
So you are a lawyer?

Just so I'm clear, was it when I gave a specific example of language I thought could be misinterpreted or was it some other time that you came up with this position for me?

C'mon dude.
 
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