Autos worth it?

OGEvilgenius · Apr 24, 2013

No, it's not ridiculous for those who have experience. I said they have use too (especially outdoors in certain areas). I just said regs are better product, because they are better product. They offer more control, higher quality and higher yields. I have no idea why anyone wastes their money on autos indoors except to fill up a veg room/box/cab/tent that has a little extra space.

Autos are also not consistent from seed. And if they are consistent they are highly inbred and lack heterosis (hybrid vigor) as it is rare that a seed company takes the time to create a true F1. And you're basically pigeon holed into feminized seed if you want to use them for production as well, which further limits your options. Because I know if I were trying to grow autos for production I wouldn't waste money on regular seeds as you'd have to increase the space used dramatically for less yield.

EverythingsHazy · Apr 24, 2013

dc4 said:
OUNCES? You haven't seen the ''harvest a pound every three week'' thread? (so it's 1/3 pound a week)

Do you have a link to that thread and/or know how much space and what kind of setup that would require?

Also do any of you know from experience how much decent autos yield like Lowryder 2, Afghan Kush Ryder, AutoBerry, etc. Ive been hearing .5-2 on avg with a max of 3oz. In all my estimations and critique of autos ive been using .5oz dry per plant as a reference but if it really does avg at least 1oz that would make it even better. Ive seen a few people mention 40+ oz dry per plant. Thats awesome. That would require you to be growing 32 autos at a time for a perpetual harvest of 1lb every3 weeks. (40g dry per plant) Thats not too bad considering the fat that you could have 4 diff strains getting a quarter pound of each every three weeks for some variety. Could also be done two levels high, and in 2 gal pots without having to worry about light leaks and therefore having open room for fans to easily keep temps down, No expensive lights and cooling systems needed or ducting to get fans to pump air out of a tent that needs to remain dark for half the day.

ALso, another benefit of autos is if you want to harvest a lot really fast and then shut down ur grow for a couple months before restarting, you can to minimize the chances you are caught growing by cutting down the time you actually ARE lol. Could do that ever 2.5 months. Grow 2.5 off 2.5 not to mention the amount of money it would save on lights if you werent sellign and only using for personal medicating of course.

---- Edit ----

And you can create an auto form of any reg strain in 3 years that is completely stable producing males and females using regular Lowryder 2 seeds. and that strain coule be 99.75% the reg parent genes and only 0.25% the auto which takes into account the auto gene and any other genes in that .25% would probably be very close to the other one anyway since most strains are very similar which is why it is hard to tell them apart if you get random pieces of plant or grow from random seed. The bad ruederalis genes wouldnt have very much room in the new strain at all. <0.25% is probably as close to the original reg strain as you'll get taking into account the liekly pollen and contramination from unseen males or polen sacs on female plants left unnoticed even by the most experienced of growers. Thoe genes would spread and be unnoticed unless mapped out anyway.

BustinScales510 · Apr 24, 2013

EverythingsHazy said:
No, I am still learning, and therefore am learning about their advantages. To say that they have no advantage anywhere indoor or out is ridiculous. They are mnuch easier to grow when you dont have to worry about lights which require you to have multiple lights and grow areas/tents to keep clones in veg while some flower for a perpetual harvest whereas autos can even be tossed in with regs apparently for a small continuous harves twhile you wait on specific regs, but personally from what Ive read, it seems like another one of those Clones from Clones cause degenertation myths. If you get backcross enough you could pretty much keep a strain the same and just pass on the auto gene. It seems like people here know a lot but tend to also stick with stuff they heard once or have little scientific evidence for. A strain that is auto with 22% thc means it is as high if not higher than the White Widows people sell that are "up to 20%". To say its less potent at that point is just stubborn. Also, to harvest several ounces weekly with regs youd need 2 setups for 1, and 2 youd be limited to strains that can finish flowering within 2 months from seed, or based on most autos, 3-5 weeks from the start of flowering which seems to be too early for most regs from what ive been reading.

Well,they arent stronger. It seems like you read something that one person posted and then you start talking about it like it is common knowledge. No offense to the other dude, but a 22% thc auto is not the norm. Id like to see some grows of an auto strain that consistently hit anywhere near that number with lab results that are viewable to the public before I believe that.

EverythingsHazy · Apr 24, 2013

BustinScales510 said:
Well,they arent stronger. It seems like you read something that one person posted and then you start talking about it like it is common knowledge. No offense to the other dude, but a 22% thc auto is not the norm. Id like to see some grows of an auto strain that consistently hit anywhere near that number with lab results that are viewable to the public before I believe that.

From reading about other reg strains though it seems 22% isnt the norm either. Most advertised as "HIGH THC" are then lableed "15+ or Close to 20%" so sure it might not be the avg for autos but it isnt for regs either according to the places sellign them.

OGEvilgenius · Apr 24, 2013

EverythingsHazy said:
From reading about other reg strains though it seems 22% isnt the norm either. Most advertised as "HIGH THC" are then lableed "15+ or Close to 20%" so sure it might not be the avg for autos but it isnt for regs either according to the places sellign them.

Depends on the plant and line. I have little doubt my Sugar Punch (every phenotype) probably tests @ or over 20%. And the best one I can actually keep forever because I can clone it.

EverythingsHazy · Apr 24, 2013

OGEvilgenius said:
Depends on the plant and line. I have little doubt my Sugar Punch (every phenotype) probably tests @ or over 20%. And the best one I can actually keep forever because I can clone it.

MHM Of course. But then the same could be said for a special strain of an auto as well.. Think about it. Do you think you would be able to tell the difference if someone took your favorite strain and bred the auto gene from lowryder 2 in to it, backcrossed till it was 99.75% the genes of your clone and mixed up bud from the new auto strain vs yours? I doubt there would be noticeable difference in thc. Esp considering 99.75% of the originals (say 20) 20% thc would be 21.945% thc. No human could tell the difference between less than 2 tenths a percent of thc. If they could they would be some sort of pot god.

BustinScales510 · Apr 24, 2013

EverythingsHazy said:
Do you have a link to that thread and/or know how much space and what kind of setup that would require?

Also do any of you know from experience how much decent autos yield like Lowryder 2, Afghan Kush Ryder, AutoBerry, etc. Ive been hearing .5-2 on avg with a max of 3oz. In all my estimations and critique of autos ive been using .5oz dry per plant as a reference but if it really does avg at least 1oz that would make it even better. Ive seen a few people mention 40+ oz dry per plant. Thats awesome. That would require you to be growing 32 autos at a time for a perpetual harvest of 1lb every3 weeks. (40g dry per plant) Thats not too bad considering the fat that you could have 4 diff strains getting a quarter pound of each every three weeks for some variety. Could also be done two levels high, and in 2 gal pots without having to worry about light leaks and therefore having open room for fans to easily keep temps down, No expensive lights and cooling systems needed or ducting to get fans to pump air out of a tent that needs to remain dark for half the day.

ALso, another benefit of autos is if you want to harvest a lot really fast and then shut down ur grow for a couple months before restarting, you can to minimize the chances you are caught growing by cutting down the time you actually ARE lol. Could do that ever 2.5 months. Grow 2.5 off 2.5 not to mention the amount of money it would save on lights if you werent sellign and only using for personal medicating of course.

---- Edit ----

And you can create an auto form of any reg strain in 3 years that is completely stable producing males and females using regular Lowryder 2 seeds. and that strain coule be 99.75% the reg parent genes and only 0.25% the auto which takes into account the auto gene and any other genes in that .25% would probably be very close to the other one anyway since most strains are very similar which is why it is hard to tell them apart if you get random pieces of plant or grow from random seed. The bad ruederalis genes wouldnt have very much room in the new strain at all. <0.25% is probably as close to the original reg strain as you'll get taking into account the liekly pollen and contramination from unseen males or polen sacs on female plants left unnoticed even by the most experienced of growers. Thoe genes would spread and be unnoticed unless mapped out anyway.

Everything youre saying is speculative and sorry to come off harsh but your inexperience and lack of knowledge about growing anything indoors is starting to become vividly apparent. You keep saying no expensive grow lights..what are you talking about,floros? You can grow photos with those too,autos and photos use the same light. And if you use a bunch of autos, you need to use a bunch of lights,whether they are floros,leds,or HID. Being auto doesnt change that.

And what makes you think the lights that you grow autos with wont make your room hot, especially if you are running them during the day (when the lights would be off for photos),all fans do is blow around hot air. If you have multiple lights they will need to be vented or youll need ac or both.

And pumping air out is to bring in new air that hasnt been depleted of co2 by the plants, are autos not part of the plant kingdom that breaths co2 now?

BustinScales510 · Apr 24, 2013

EverythingsHazy said:
MHM Of course. But then the same could be said for a special strain of an auto as well.. Think about it. Do you think you would be able to tell the difference if someone took your favorite strain and bred the auto gene from lowryder 2 in to it, backcrossed till it was 99.75% the genes of your clone and mixed up bud from the new auto strain vs yours? I doubt there would be noticeable difference in thc. Esp considering 99.75% of the originals (say 20) 20% thc would be 21.945% thc. No human could tell the difference between less than 2 tenths a percent of thc. If they could they would be some sort of pot god.

So what your saying is to cross a good strain with an auto strain and spend a long time breeding the auto out of it so it was just the good strain again. What makes you think it would still autoflower? Wouldnt the offspring eventually lose the ability to start flowering without a dark period. Im just asking, dont know about breeding

EverythingsHazy · Apr 24, 2013

BustinScales510 said:
So what your saying is to cross a good strain with an auto strain and spend a long time breeding the auto out of it so it was just the good strain again. What makes you think it would still autoflower? Wouldnt the offspring eventually lose the ability to start flowering without a dark period. Im just asking, dont know about breeding

Well no because you would be breeding so that only the auto gene remains. You can breed to get specific genes to pass on while dropping off others..

and Also, when people use thse water cooled lights with fans and ducting to blow the air over them and out of a tent, you can just use flouros or even the same light not cooled in a bigger room because it would take alot more lighting to heat up an entire room past growable conditions. It is very easy to heat up a zipped tent that is lined with reflective material not letting anythign pass through the walls. Several flouros do almostnothign to a decent sized room in terms of temp. A couple in a tent will make it 20-30F+ hotter in a few hours tho. Also, you could grow the autos under lights on atnight mostly and only 6 on during the day because when they turn off and the room is no loner being heated by them. the other lights i your house or room .or for other plants/etc wouldnt cause them to hermie like everyone is so worried about.

EverythingsHazy · Apr 24, 2013

This is the breeding plan I am using at the moment. If you see anything wrong with it let me know but this is where I'm getting my numbers.

"
--------------------------------
Xx = Photopd strain
Lr2 = Lowryder 2 (any auto really)
C = Crossed seeds
Ns = new strain

Xx x Lr2
Aa Aa Aa Aa = 50/50 C1

C1 x Lr2
Aa Aa aa aa = 25/75 C2

C2 x Xx
Aa Aa Aa Aa = 75/25 C3

C3xLr2
Aa Aa aa aa = 37.5/62.5 C4

C4 x Xx
Aa Aa Aa Aa = 87.5/12.5 C5

C5 x Lr2 = 43.75/56.25 C6
Aa Aa aa aa

C6 x Xx = 99.75/0.25 C7
Aa Aa Aa Aa

C7x C7 = 99.75/0.25 Ns
AA Aa Aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F1
aa aa aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F2
aa aa aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F3
aa aa aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F4
aa aa aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F5
aa aa aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F6
aa aa aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F7 <---This 0.25% is including the auto gene AND the genes from the non ruderalis part of the auto as well as the ruderalis genes that are similar to the reg plant genes so even less is actually negative ruderalis genes.
aa aa aa aa
(Stablized!!!)

The only reason I did the last 7 generations was because the first ones were backcrossed between two different plants so I don't think that allows them to qualify towards stabilization in the F generations correct?
Would it count towards stabilization if it was only backcrossed to one plant?

--------------------------------
"

BustinScales510 · Apr 24, 2013

Cool, well..if youre right we'll be seeing a conversion to auto strain indoor grows with a lot of these theories and designs in practice soon

EverythingsHazy · Apr 24, 2013

BustinScales510 said:
Cool, well..if youre right we'll be seeing a conversion to auto strain indoor grows with a lot of these theories and designs in practice soon

Hey I'm not saying its 100% but I'm just stating what I know and where im coming form. I might be new to cannabis but I do know about plants for a few years now so it isnt all new to me. There might be something(s) that stands out thatI am not accountign for that will ruin the whole plan, but i havent found proof of it. Id love for someone to show me evidence tho so time isnt wasted by people bothering to advnace further with auto's lol.
That said, it also takes time and patience / dedicated isolated grow areas and careful breeidng procedure for 3 years to come up with a strain so close to a reg thatstill autoflowers so for peopel who like to have a bunch of strains going or are not willing to have some seeded bud for 3 years, it isnt as doable.

OGEvilgenius · Apr 24, 2013

EverythingsHazy said:
MHM Of course. But then the same could be said for a special strain of an auto as well.. Think about it. Do you think you would be able to tell the difference if someone took your favorite strain and bred the auto gene from lowryder 2 in to it, backcrossed till it was 99.75% the genes of your clone and mixed up bud from the new auto strain vs yours? I doubt there would be noticeable difference in thc. Esp considering 99.75% of the originals (say 20) 20% thc would be 21.945% thc. No human could tell the difference between less than 2 tenths a percent of thc. If they could they would be some sort of pot god.

I've grown these "special" autoflowering strains. They aren't "special".

You can't backcross it until it's 99.75% of the other genetic lineage. It doesn't work like that. You can BX two times and any more is completely pointless and you will have incredible variation. If you cross two plants together, you are going to have significant genetic contribution from both plants. You can do things to reduce it, but you're still looking at a significant % and it definitely, without question, lowers the quality. TD is an AK47 hybrid. I've had real AK and I grew out over 20 TD plants. The AK is miles better. The TD did yield. Too bad almost every plant was mid-grade (or worse) except for one which was slightly above and still wasn't top shelf.

Also, impossible to dial in autos perfectly too. There's so much working against autos it's a fuckin miracle they ever became popular IMO.

OGEvilgenius · Apr 24, 2013

BustinScales510 said:
So what your saying is to cross a good strain with an auto strain and spend a long time breeding the auto out of it so it was just the good strain again. What makes you think it would still autoflower? Wouldnt the offspring eventually lose the ability to start flowering without a dark period. Im just asking, dont know about breeding

The autoflowering gene is recessive so it's hard to lose once it's established. Cross an auto to an auto and they will all be autoflowering. Cross an auto to a regular and none will be autoflowering. Do an F2 and 25% are autoflowering with another 50% having the recessive gene. That said, you have to breed "out" so many qualities that it literally becomes impossible and you have to compromise.

OGEvilgenius · Apr 24, 2013

EverythingsHazy said:
This is the breeding plan I am using at the moment. If you see anything wrong with it let me know but this is where I'm getting my numbers.

"
--------------------------------
Xx = Photopd strain
Lr2 = Lowryder 2 (any auto really)
C = Crossed seeds
Ns = new strain

Xx x Lr2
Aa Aa Aa Aa = 50/50 C1

C1 x Lr2
Aa Aa aa aa = 25/75 C2

C2 x Xx
Aa Aa Aa Aa = 75/25 C3

C3xLr2
Aa Aa aa aa = 37.5/62.5 C4

C4 x Xx
Aa Aa Aa Aa = 87.5/12.5 C5

C5 x Lr2 = 43.75/56.25 C6
Aa Aa aa aa

C6 x Xx = 99.75/0.25 C7
Aa Aa Aa Aa

C7x C7 = 99.75/0.25 Ns
AA Aa Aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F1
aa aa aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F2
aa aa aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F3
aa aa aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F4
aa aa aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F5
aa aa aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F6
aa aa aa aa

Ns x Ns 99.75/0.25 F7 <---This 0.25% is including the auto gene AND the genes from the non ruderalis part of the auto as well as the ruderalis genes that are similar to the reg plant genes so even less is actually negative ruderalis genes.
aa aa aa aa
(Stablized!!!)

The only reason I did the last 7 generations was because the first ones were backcrossed between two different plants so I don't think that allows them to qualify towards stabilization in the F generations correct?
Would it count towards stabilization if it was only backcrossed to one plant?

--------------------------------
"

Well, it's clear you've done some reading - this is a good thing, but it's also kind of unclear what you're attempting to demonstrate above. Your "plan" might be more practical if cannabis only contained 4 alleles, unfortunately for you it contains about 22,000.

EverythingsHazy · Apr 24, 2013

OGEvilgenius said:
Well, it's clear you've done some reading - this is a good thing, but it's also kind of unclear what you're attempting to demonstrate above. Your "plan" might be more practical if cannabis only contained 4 alleles, unfortunately for you it contains about 22,000.

Haha thanks. Well yea, what I was trying to do is pass on only the autoflowering gene. Obviously that can't be done this way but you can get very close.

Peas also have a ton of genes but you can use a Punett square to explain the yellow and green breeding.

Greenleavez · Apr 24, 2013

I am not really too sure why people who hate autoflowers feel the need to keep repeating themselves? The point is that autoflowers definitely have a time and place to be used, and that is in stealth indoor grows, stealth outdoor grows, or someone who just prefers the simplicity of growing them.. etc. If autos actually suck that bad, i believe it should speak for itself. Many people enjoy autos, so if you don't like them, great, nobody cares.

-It is a huge plus to be able to harvest at all outdoors for people who have a short season, as well as avoid rippers and cops.(Harvesting while nature is still green)
-Not everyone is able to have a big professional indoor grow-op(or choose not to), so autos are perfect for small areas, especially grown with florescent light. I have personally had a few small stealth grows with T5 lighting, and i can say i enjoyed them very much. And guess what? The strains i grew were all regular, not autos! This is what sparked my interest in autos. If i could run the lights 20/4 compared to 12/12 with a regular strains, how much of an improved yield will i get using an auto?

There are many sensible reasons to choose autos, mainly the ones i just stated, so why knock them?

Lastly i will say, if i had a professional grow room with HPS lighting i am pretty sure i would use regular strains. This should make it clear that i am not a hypocrite. Although i always will enjoy a nice experiment, so that is to say maybe one day when that day comes, i may just test a room full of autos as well.

OGEvilgenius · Apr 25, 2013

The only viable reason you gave to use autos is outdoors. The rest of your post is bullshit, hence we keep repeating ourselves.

You can grow regs under CFLs and floros just fine. In fact, you can do it better than you can autos because you can manage the height in a far far far s+uperior fashion given you are legitimately mono cropping, can top, can do so much more to the plants (or less if you don't want them to get as tall).

If you want a fantastic example, this guy pulls down 1-2oz (closer to 2) every week with 210w and 2 sq ft. It would be utterly impossible to do this with autos. And all his smoke is exactly what he likes because he had the option to go through and find and keep.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=69713&pp=15

I guess what I'm saying is I detest bullshit and there's a fair bit being spewed in this thread. Flipping lights to 12/12 isn't complicated.

Cloning isn't hard either. Some think it is, but they need to understand that if they can keep the air fresh, keep temps at around 80 and humidity above 90 they are going to have near 100% success and it's really really really low effort. No hormones or other crap required. Advisable to dip cuttings into an H2O2 solution to keep em clean. Cleanliness is next to Godliness.

dc4 · Apr 25, 2013

OGEvilgenius said:
The only viable reason you gave to use autos is outdoors. The rest of your post is bullshit, hence we keep repeating ourselves.

You can grow regs under CFLs and floros just fine. In fact, you can do it better than you can autos because you can manage the height in a far far far s+uperior fashion given you are legitimately mono cropping, can top, can do so much more to the plants (or less if you don't want them to get as tall).

If you want a fantastic example, this guy pulls down 1-2oz (closer to 2) every week with 210w and 2 sq ft. It would be utterly impossible to do this with autos. And all his smoke is exactly what he likes because he had the option to go through and find and keep.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=69713&pp=15

I guess what I'm saying is I detest bullshit and there's a fair bit being spewed in this thread. Flipping lights to 12/12 isn't complicated.

Cloning isn't hard either. Some think it is, but they need to understand that if they can keep the air fresh, keep temps at around 80 and humidity above 90 they are going to have near 100% success and it's really really really low effort. No hormones or other crap required. Advisable to dip cuttings into an H2O2 solution to keep em clean. Cleanliness is next to Godliness.

Exactly my thoughts, man! Photos all the way, except for short season outdoors or If you just want to throw them errywhere nd forget about them!

BeastGrow · Apr 25, 2013

With regs:
27 plants 9 weeks + 2 weeks vegging.
14 grams per plant
34 grams per week

Auto:
27 plants in 8 weeks
14 grams per plant
47 grams per week

oh, you have another grow room dedicated to mothers and clones so you can harvest every 9 weeks? well let me use that extra grow room to grow more autoflowers.

regs:
27 plants 9 weeks
14 grams per plant
42 grams per week

auto:
54plants(2 rooms) in 8 weeks
14 grams per plant
95 grams per week.

as i just showed.. you could potentially double your yield with autos...

Autos worth it?

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