Autoflower crossing?

Discussion in 'Auto-Flowering Strains' started by DL83, Oct 1, 2012.

  1.  
    DL83

    DL83 Member

    Hi guys

    A question

    If I have a few autoflower seeds that I grow, and a male plant (lets say indica dominant) or pollen, and I pollinate the auto's. What would the resulting seeds be? would they be auto's or would it be a hit and miss situation?

    I'm asking as auto's are interesting and would like to play around with them.

    cheers
  2.  
    lowblower

    lowblower Well-Known Member

    Although its the recessive gene, if both parents are autos then i think most the offspring will be auto. I couldn't rell you the ratios lol but yeah, its supposed to work well. There is a thread on here for seed production with autos, search for it and check it out. You can even use colloidal silver to make a female plant produce some male flowers, and then if you use that pollen to fertilise some seeds then they will turn out femenized and auto too
  3.  
    DL83

    DL83 Member

    Hi lowblower

    thanks for that, will have a look at the other thread, and read up on colloidal silver method.

    regards
  4.  
    Jogro

    Jogro Well-Known Member

    The most common (lowryder) autoflowering gene is recessive.

    So if you cross two autos, all the offspring will be autos.

    If you cross an auto and a regular plant NONE of the offspring will be autos. If you then cross two of THOSE offspring plants, 1/4 of the offspring of that cross will be auto.
  5.  
    chongsbuddy

    chongsbuddy New Member

    but the f1 generation from an auto and a non auto parents will finish roughly 2 weeks earlier than the photosensitive strain on its own,so if it finished october 1st it would now finish around september 15th,with a few later and a few earlier,but the f1's like buddy said will have 0% autoflowring,cross 2 auto's and 100% of the offspring will be auto,i think it takes at least 4 generations to produce a full auto from auto and non auto parents.
  6.  
    Jogro

    Jogro Well-Known Member

    Didn't know this, though it is good to know.

    I don't think so.

    If you were to cross an auto and non-auto the F1 offspring should all be auto heterozygotes (ie each F1 plant will carry one and only auto gene from its autoflowering parent; you need two to be autoflowering).

    If you then crossed any two F1s to create an F2 generation, about 1/4 of those F2 plants will be expected to carry two autoflowering genes and be themselves autos.

    So you really only need two generations of crosses to create SOME auto offspring from auto and non-auto parents.

    Assuming you generated enough F2s to do the selection, you could then select out both an auto male and an auto female, and cross them to get 100% auto F3 offspring, etc.

    At that point you've created an entirely new autoflowering hybrid line.

    Now in practice, you probably wouldn't stop your breeding project there, since even though your new line should be 100% autoflowering (or nearly so), you still haven't stabilized any OTHER traits you were interested in when you started the project. Your F3 all auto plants would still throw off lots of different phenotypes.

    If you want to do REAL breeding, you're either going to want to backcross your new autos with the non-autoflowering plant and repeat the cycle (requiring more selection to retain the autoflowering trait), or alternatively do your original F2 selections from LOTS of autoflowering plants, so you'd have plenty of male and female autos to choose from so you could select the absolutely best ones for further refinement.
  7.  
    chongsbuddy

    chongsbuddy New Member

  8.  
    Jogro

    Jogro Well-Known Member

    Its interesting to see that there are so many cannabis forums out there!
    Unfortunately, I'm not willing to join a new one just to read those two posts. You have to be a member to read them.
    Can you summarize what they say, or maybe do an attributed "cut and paste"?

    Yes, I know that in practice, if you were to cross a male F2 auto with a female F2 auto you might not see absolutely 100% auto F3s because of some genetic chicanery I'd rather not get into now. But you should get pretty close (ie >95% autos), which is why I said "or nearly so" above.

    But again, whether you did or didn't, for any reasonable breeding project, you're not going to be done with just an F3. You'll need at least 3 more generations of crosses to create anything approaching a stable new line.
  9.  
    chongsbuddy

    chongsbuddy New Member

    its like 12 pages of info,im not copying and pasting all that.i didnt know you had to be a member to read....just join,its an amazing tight knit community of outdoor growers,lots of valueable info,and they are connected to rcmcollective which is a canadian seedbank that specializes in early outdoor dank
  10.  
    chongsbuddy

    chongsbuddy New Member

    [h=2][​IMG] Breeding Map For Auto~Flowering (Day-Neutral)[/h]
    I was asked to do a write up on how I breed for auto-flowering (Day-Neutral).
    I thought it would be a lot simpler to understand, if I made a breeding Map.

    The map is not perfect, but is does get idea a cross.
    Hope it is put to good use.


    They say a picture is worth a 1000 words.
    THEN
    A breeding Map is worth 5000 words! [​IMG]
    Even if it looks like it was drawled by a 6 year old. [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
  11.  
    chongsbuddy

    chongsbuddy New Member

    The breeding map zy posted above works with any trait that is controlled by one gene (allele). The reason there are 3 lines is that even though there are 4 lines one line is an exact copy of another line so only 3 are shown. You may be a little confused because the map shows more than one trait ( the high/low thc ). All the F1’s have both flowering genes (auto - non auto) when u breed the f1’s together you will see that some of the plants (25 %) got only the auto flowering gene and 25% only got the Non auto gene the remaining 50% still have both Genes (auto-non auto) out of these F2’s you would pick the auto flowering plants for the breeding. The resulting f’3 seed will be all auto flowering. A little more confusing if you add the thc factor.

    Sometimes the key to finding the right auto flowering f2’s is in the F1’s. When the F1’s are grown out the most dominate gene(s) will expressed. It is very important to remember that the purity (or rather the stability of the gene) in the P1’s is critical or the map falls apart. If the auto flowering gene is not expressed in the F1’s then it is recessive and all the f3’s made with the auto flowering F2’s will be auto flowering.

    Now if the gene you are breeding for is dominate then the job of identifying a true auto (AA) to a non true auto (Aa) is harder and more time consuming. U will need to do some test crosses and then evaluate the outcome of each cross (grow out the seeds) At this point I must say that unlike any other gene a dominate auto flowering one would be hard to wok with, because you can not use clones for the breeding project. Let me explain, If clones could be taken then

    Plant the F2 seed when they come up take cuts, then flower the seed plants, you would have 75% auto flowering plants. Cull the 25% of the cuts that did not auto flower. Out of the remaining (auto flowering) plants you will need to have more copies made.

    Out of these auto flowering plants 33% are true AA and the 66% are Aa. To get the best chance of success you would use 6 (different ) male plants and 6 (different) female plants. Lets label them for the males M1, M2.….M6 and the same with the females G1,G2,G3...G6. I am using G for the Girls so we do not get confused.

    Now u need 6 clones of each female and 1 clone from each male - 42 plants in total. With 6 separate rooms - no cross contamination. Take 1 female of each clone and mate it with M1, Take a clone from each female and mate it with M2 etc…

    Now grow out each line of the M1 seeds, use 6 seeds from each female.(6 different females x 6 seeds each = 36 seeds) label each seed. Keep records for each female, you are looking for any non auto flowering plants. If there are any non auto flowering plants then the M1 has the genes Aa, if every plant is auto flowering then M1 is a true AA.

    Do the same for all the M2 seed, and the M3, M4 M5 M6. U will now know which male(s) are AA. Let us say that u got 2 males that are pure auto flowering (AA) - M1 and M2

    Look at the records for the girls, if any of the seeds from
    If any of the G1 x non auto males (M3-M6) are non auto then G1 is Aa (Auto and non auto) If they are all Auto flowering then G1 is AA - pure auto flowering.

    Same for G2-G6.

    Now u should know which Females are true AA Auto flowering and which males are true AA auto flowering. Take those clones breed them together and the result is a stabilized auto flowering line.

    But you can not take clones from auto flowering plants soooooo the job is much harder. Here’s is how u do that.
    Take the f2 seeds, grow them till they show flowers. Cull the Non auto’s. separate the females and males. Use 6 females to 1 male and let them breed. Again I the smallest # of male plants I would use is 6. So 6 different rooms with 1 male and 6 females = 42 plants. Keep records and grow out the resulting f3’s. I f any of the F3 M1 seeds grow out to be non auto then F3 M1 is a Aa both auto and non auto. If they are all Auto flowering then M1 is an AA pure auto flowering. Once you find the Pure auto male u would then do run of his seeds, all of these seeds will be auto flowering but some will have the non auto gene too. However the ratio of true auto flowering plants will be 75% - 100% depending on the female’s genes. Lets say that F2 M1 was the a true auto as determined by the F3 grow. Take the F2 M1 seed and grow out seed from each female - make sure they are labeled.

    Grow out the seeds from the F2 M1 x F2 G1 and let them breed together. Grow out the resulting f3 seeds and breed them together if any of the (F3 M1 x F3 G1) F4 show non auto flowering then the F2 G1 was Aa. If every seed is Auto flowering then the F2 G1 was AA and all the seeds from the F2M1 x F2F1 cross u did are 100% auto flowering. Now u can start more F2M1 X F2F1 seeds looking for the high THC trait and do it all again Starting with only the F2 M1 X F2 G1 seed. After you finish u will know which (F2 M1 x F2 G1) F3 seed batch was both high THC and Auto flowering.

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