atheist vs muslim

UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Puff_Dragon said:
lol ..not to mention Islam's long history in the slave trade out of Africa (still going on today) and zero admittance of it ;)

I just view this as groups of people who don't fully understand they live in a secular society (and all that entails). I'm fine with secular Islam (as I am with other secular religions), I hate those followers that act like they don't live in a secular society and prothletise non-secular views and beliefs. For non-secular Islam you simply hit them with facts written in religious texts, like support for:

Genocide: Sahi Bukhari Volume 5:59:448
Assassination: Qurían 83:13; Abu Dawud #2680; Bukhari 5:59:369-372
Enslavement: Qurían 23:5; 33:50; Bukhari 3:765; 5:512
Rape: Bukhari 5:459; 5:637; 7:137; 7:137
Robbery: Qurían 8:68-69; 59:6; Ibn Hisham pg.424-425; 428
Child sexual abuse: Bukhari 5:58:234; Muslim 3309-3311; Dawud 4915
Greed: Qurían 8:1; Bukhari 4:53:327
Torture: Ibn Hisham pg 515; 980
Mistreatment of women: Qurían 2:223; 4:34; Bukhari 1:6:301; 1:9:493; Muslim 9:3557
Lying: Bukhari 5:59:365; Ibn Hisham pg 519-520
Oath breaking: Bukhari 7:67:427; 9:89:260

When I do that, these types of street preacher 'run for ze hills' :)
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How small is your penis?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Puff_Dragon said:
lol ..not to mention Islam's long history in the slave trade out of Africa (still going on today) and zero admittance of it ;)

I just view this as groups of people who don't fully understand they live in a secular society (and all that entails). I'm fine with secular Islam (as I am with other secular religions), I hate those followers that act like they don't live in a secular society and prothletise non-secular views and beliefs. For non-secular Islam you simply hit them with facts written in religious texts, like support for:

Genocide: Sahi Bukhari Volume 5:59:448
Assassination: Qurían 83:13; Abu Dawud #2680; Bukhari 5:59:369-372
Enslavement: Qurían 23:5; 33:50; Bukhari 3:765; 5:512
Rape: Bukhari 5:459; 5:637; 7:137; 7:137
Robbery: Qurían 8:68-69; 59:6; Ibn Hisham pg.424-425; 428
Child sexual abuse: Bukhari 5:58:234; Muslim 3309-3311; Dawud 4915
Greed: Qurían 8:1; Bukhari 4:53:327
Torture: Ibn Hisham pg 515; 980
Mistreatment of women: Qurían 2:223; 4:34; Bukhari 1:6:301; 1:9:493; Muslim 9:3557
Lying: Bukhari 5:59:365; Ibn Hisham pg 519-520
Oath breaking: Bukhari 7:67:427; 9:89:260

When I do that, these types of street preacher 'run for ze hills' :)
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Christianity is invalid using similar logic. I'm not challenging belief, just the zealot's arguments against science as a better method for understanding our physical universe.
 
Puff_Dragon

Puff_Dragon

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Christianity is invalid using similar logic. I'm not challenging belief, just the zealot's arguments against science as a better method for understanding our physical universe.
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Christianity and Islam are just sects of Judaism anyway :) It's the true/first reason for the madness between those three religions (they're inability to accept they are one in the same religion).
I was (like many) raised in a secular country and household (without religion) but with good concepts of right and wrong and a respect for others (within a secular framework)
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imo: best religion ever got to getting it right was in that 90's movie 'bill and ted' "be excellent to one another" It seems the more you add to that concept the worse it gets
 
Puff_Dragon

Puff_Dragon

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
So, you'd agree that Christianity is as invalid as Islam?
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Naturally. Although I feel Islam has worse issues (currently) with non secular concepts running its world. And so causing friction in other societies. It was the Christian world that gave us secularism (and many other things) so I do draw certain differences between these religions.

I should add: Religion to me is part of social evolution. The all seeing one watches your every move; being a great way to make populations follow your commandments.
However, I was hoping we had evolved (socially) beyond that need. Sadly (when I look at the world today - including the 'modern' world) I feel we still need some form of 'blanket' to keep us warm and snug at night.
Or, maybe I'm just getting older and more cynical ;)
 
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Puff_Dragon

Puff_Dragon

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Hmm

You haven't seen what evangelists have done to the US, have you?
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I have heard the campfire horror stories of yonder 'bible belt' :) The attacks on the school curriculum (over the years) alarm me most. Admittedly, we threw these radicals out a few hundred years ago! So, I feel inclined to apologies for shifting that problem onto you ;)
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Puff_Dragon said:
I have heard the campfire horror stories of yonder 'bible belt' :) The attacks on the school curriculum (over the years) alarm me most. Admittedly, we threw these radicals out a few hundred years ago! So, I feel inclined to apologies for shifting that problem onto you ;)
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Christianity is as invalid of an answer as Islam.
 
Puff_Dragon

Puff_Dragon

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Christianity is as invalid of an answer as Islam.
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I would disagree personally. I feel they helped point the way during our history (and to a degree, in our future) ..don't just dismiss them out of hand. Otherwise, you can fall into new age things like Religious Political Ideologies ..and we have only scratched the surface of how nasty they can be.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
the Muslims invented algebra, refined surgery, started the first universities, built the first clocks, and introduced the world to coffee.
i think they helped point the way as well as Christians. as i said, i'm not fond of either, but i think both have had huge positive, and negative, impacts on the world, as far as i can tell, about evenly
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Puff_Dragon said:
Naturally. Although I feel Islam has worse issues (currently) with non secular concepts running its world. And so causing friction in other societies. It was the Christian world that gave us secularism (and many other things) so I do draw certain differences between these religions.

I should add: Religion to me is part of social evolution. The all seeing one watches your every move; being a great way to make populations follow your commandments.
However, I was hoping we had evolved (socially) beyond that need. Sadly (when I look at the world today - including the 'modern' world) I feel we still need some form of 'blanket' to keep us warm and snug at night.
Or, maybe I'm just getting older and more cynical ;)
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Christians are much worse

The holocaust was done by Christians
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Puff_Dragon said:
I would disagree personally. I feel they helped point the way during our history (and to a degree, in our future) ..don't just dismiss them out of hand. Otherwise, you can fall into new age things like Religious Political Ideologies ..and we have only scratched the surface of how nasty they can be.
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Nope. Christianity is no more valid than Islam. Both are equally invalid too. Both have had horrible acts committed in their names.

It's people who believe in religion and religious principles or mysticism that fall for fads and cults.
 
MichiganMedGrower

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
It is accurate to say the holocaust was done by Christians. Many Nazis were Christians. Oh and -- Catholic priests are Christian too.
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No it isn’t. More accurate to say it was started by a Jew if you want to pretend to get technical.

And yes obviously the catholic priests taken and murdered were Christian.
 
Puff_Dragon

Puff_Dragon

Well-Known Member
UncleBuck said:
Christians are much worse

The holocaust was done by Christians
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Again, I kind of disagree. Your missing both context and deeper historical accuracy. I would ask what you actually know of Islamic atrocities throughout history? And to a lesser degree how they have confronted (or not) those atrocities throughout history (i.e. have they ever apologised to anyone). I fear you keep yourself in the dark about that to conform to your specific hatreds.

And seeing as there are a number of Soviet references in your sig:
Speaking of the Holocaust, I hope you are aware of how effectively the Soviets used the German concentration camps after WW2 (and for decades afterwards) to kill minorities (like Jews) and political dissidents. Not to mention that country and it's ideologies brought us things like National Socialism (aka - real honest to goodness Nazisum). Remember (if your were taught this or not) Russia was on the side of Nazis Germany at the start of WW2 and was part of the invasion of Poland (and genocide there). Only when Britain declared war on Germany did Russia turn 'Neutral' (which is another story unto itself).
Heck, the Russian far left started the whole 'hate the Jews' thing, when they made up a propaganda book called the 'protocols of the elders of zion'. A fake propaganda book used to kill one million illiterate peasants in Russia in the late 19th and early 20th century (in fact the book was used to kill different minorities ..they just changed the name of the ethnic group in the book). It directly inspired Hitler with his ideology later on.
I always thought that is partially why the Far left (Marxist, Communist etc) and Nazis have always been at each others throats (they have been all this time). They share far more ancestry then they care to admit :) and the parallels with Religion are not lost on me either.
 
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