Are Boosters and Additives Really Necessary?

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO · May 23, 2011

Harrekin said:
And just out of interest, you know the exact weekly nutritional requirements/preferable nutrient ratios of a flowering cannabis plant how exactly? Care to give me a link to a study for that? Because without that your argument is pure speculation, and you can dress it up whatever way you want, but it is just speculation at this point.

I'm gonna guess ub will hit you with the facts in just a minute. Why do you people push the teacher so hard? If you don't like what he's saying, then go ahead and use the boosters, He's not going to think any less of you.

Harrekin · May 23, 2011

Also, none of your links specifically rule out anything Iv said.

There is talk of when "rock phosphate" is applied to soil as 1/4 of the total amount of phosphorous it does not improve yield...nothing to do with what I mentioned.

There is also talk about nutrient antagonism, but it also doesnt state what ratios these occur at. Also its very hard to believe a company would release a product as part of a line, that doesnt work with that line. At most a snake oil should do nothing beneficial, why would a company actually release a product that specifically doesnt work?

Uncle Ben · May 23, 2011

Harrekin said:
And just out of interest, you know the exact weekly nutritional requirements/preferable nutrient ratios of a flowering cannabis plant how exactly? Care to give me a link to a study for that? Because without that your argument is pure speculation, and you can dress it up whatever way you want, but it is just speculation at this point.

This is about week 7 of a Trainwreck X Sweettooth cross. What NPK values do you think I was using up to this point and thereafter?

This is 42 days of flowering for a Trainwreck X Sweettooth cross.

See that dreadful leaf retention? See those awful trichomes? :mrgreen:

Wonder why? :roll:

I'm not singling you out and I hope you don't take this personally, but you and your kind have been so brainwashed by the entire cannabis biz and forums that you've become your own worst enemy. Fact that many are too lazy to spend an hour or two with bonafide gardening websites and books just adds insult to injury.

UB

Uncle Ben · May 23, 2011

I doubt if a whack between the eyes with a 2X4 is going to do it.

Harrekin said:
There is also talk about nutrient antagonism, but it also doesnt state what ratios these occur at.

Sheesh, are you thick or just lazy!!!!!!!! The hell it doesn't. I'll link you to one of them again. (grabs silver spoon) http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm

I'll speak more slooooooooooooooooowly.....

Too much K induces micro deficiencies. Ever wondered why most of your buddie's leaves show leaf chlorosis once they start using bloom foods? That's right, the high P locks out micros. You do know what chlorosis is, eh? Perhaps you're used to giving props to some noob whose plants look like they've been run over by a concrete truck....heck I don't know.

Too much K induces Nitrogen, Calcium, Magnesium deficiencies. By the same token, wonder why most of your buddie's leaves yellow and show a bronzed condition?

"Too much" means straying too far away from say......a 10-10-10 ratio. Got it?

Learn to read your plants, not some popular but erroneous forum paradigm.

Again, what is in your wonderful canna pk13/14? I'm looking for the chemicals.

UB

Harrekin · May 23, 2011

Did you actually read what you quoted from me? Where are the ratios? Im sure too much PK (long term) does cause what you describe above, but what is too much? Give me some actual numbers this time perhaps?

What Im trying to say is you cant tell me a product doesnt work without giving me accurate data, otherwise its just an educated but quite possibly inaccurate guess.

For the record Im not even defending the product, I bought it cos I had a few extra euro and I thought Id try it for the craic. I havnt even tried it yet so I might even be agreeing with you in a few weeks... BUT (and THIS is my issue) you havnt tried it either but you are catagorically stating that it will not work and with no actual hard data to support it. Doing this you're engaging in complete guesswork UncleBen and its also obvious your guesswork is effected by a MASSIVE personal bias for some reason which to be honest is very disappointing.

Uncle Ben · May 23, 2011

Harrekin said:
And just out of interest, you know the exact weekly nutritional requirements/preferable nutrient ratios of a flowering cannabis plant how exactly?

Speaking of brainwashed, that's another one, the stupid schedules put out by the oil companies. I bet with each week your vendor is telling you that you need to use a different product "to get da big buds".

UB

Uncle Ben · May 23, 2011

Harrekin said:
Did you actually read what you quoted from me? Where are the ratios? Im sure too much PK (long term) does cause what you describe above, but what is too much? Give me some actual numbers this time perhaps?

What Im trying to say is you cant tell me a product doesnt work without giving me accurate data, otherwise its just an educated but quite possibly inaccurate guess.

For the record Im not even defending the product, I bought it cos I had a few extra euro and I thought Id try it for the craic. I havnt even tried it yet so I might even be agreeing with you in a few weeks... BUT (and THIS is my issue) you havnt tried it either but you are catagorically stating that it will not work and with no actual hard data to support it. Doing this you're engaging in complete guesswork UncleBen and its also obvious your guesswork is effected by a MASSIVE personal bias for some reason which to be honest is very disappointing.

Just for the record, spoon feeding time is over.

Good luck,
UB

insomnia47 · May 23, 2011

I don't think General Hydroponics are cannabis specific nutrients, but they do not appear to be a very complete nutrient either. i will look into this dyna-gro you speak of. to each his own, hydro works best for me. your right im still a bit new at this, but even so i can deffinetly see how a lot of companies are splitting up and diluting all the "essentials" in order to make you buy 10 bottles instead of 2, i was under the impression that you could not mix all 16 elements together in a liquid form without making them unstable.

Canna specific nutes are a huge industry and your right the target audience is a bunch of lazy stoners, its hard not to look at those ads when theres such hot chicks straddeling the bottle. i also notice that alot of the ads talk around the point rather than addressing the purpose of the product.

UB sir your a promoter of jacks classic, correct? is it possible to use their general purpose and bloom booster in a hydroponics system? i just picked some up for some outdoor plants, peppers, tomatoes and stuff like that, but was wondering if i could apply it to hydro? i would like to give it a whirl i hear a lot of good stuff about it, and its dirt cheap.

Harrekin · May 23, 2011

No actually, the company who's products Im using offer additives for example; increasing root production speed and do offer a schedule of how best to use their products to get the most out of them...but they in no way tell me I need them to grow my plants, nor would any genuinely reputable company.

Just cos you want to use a saw (old fashioned, time tested) instead of a chainsaw (newer relatively speaking), doesnt mean you can go automatically saying the chainsaw doesnt work without trying it yourself.

EDIT: And the ad hominum attacks are pointless, without actual empirical data on the nutrient requirements of cannabis plants your argument is guesswork, speculation or at best an educated (but possibly inaccurate) guess. So run away claiming "spoon feeding" is over, but you offered no actual facts to the debate and just took it all very seriously with a very biased "my way or the highway" approach that is very unbefitting someone of your reputation.

Perhaps a more open minded approach and dare I say some humility, and next time you might actually offer an answer backed up by data to my specific question instead of the biased generalising of any product you dont use as a "snake oil". Thanks.

genuity · May 23, 2011

insomnia47 said:
I don't think General Hydroponics are cannabis specific nutrients, but they do not appear to be a very complete nutrient either. i will look into this dyna-gro you speak of. to each his own, hydro works best for me. your right im still a bit new at this, but even so i can deffinetly see how a lot of companies are splitting up and diluting all the "essentials" in order to make you buy 10 bottles instead of 2, i was under the impression that you could not mix all 16 elements together in a liquid form without making them unstable.

Canna specific nutes are a huge industry and your right the target audience is a bunch of lazy stoners, its hard not to look at those ads when theres such hot chicks straddeling the bottle. i also notice that alot of the ads talk around the point rather than addressing the purpose of the product.

UB sir your a promoter of jacks classic, correct? is it possible to use their general purpose and bloom booster in a hydroponics system? i just picked some up for some outdoor plants, peppers, tomatoes and stuff like that, but was wondering if i could apply it to hydro? i would like to give it a whirl i hear a lot of good stuff about it, and its dirt cheap.

thats it,in a nut shell.

Uncle Ben · May 23, 2011

insomnia47 said:
UB sir your a promoter of jacks classic, correct? is it possible to use their general purpose and bloom booster in a hydroponics system? i just picked some up for some outdoor plants, peppers, tomatoes and stuff like that, but was wondering if i could apply it to hydro? i would like to give it a whirl i hear a lot of good stuff about it, and its dirt cheap.

I really don't promote anything. Just because I might post about a product does not mean I use it exclusively. I go by general product principles of purity, ratios, and cost. For example, I buy 25 lb. bags of Plantex. It would easily pass for Peters in every respect. There are certain properties that ALL quality dry foods have in common, one is being very hygroscopic (tendency to get mushy from absorbing air moisture). Peters is designed for soil. On their own they are not complete. They do contain a lot of elements though, like 9. Most soils provide the rest. Go back to page one and read the essential versus beneficial nutrients link I gave.

I grew orchids in lava rock for a while. It was water culture using soil type foods like the Peters brand but administered manually using an injector system at each watering. I realized much better growth when I added organics to my mixes such as redwood or fir bark, and especially when I used osmunda fiber. I dropped the lava rock except as an adjunct. There was something missing with the pure lava rock.

I also grew in coco fiber. That was back in the 70's and 80's before coco fiber became fashionable.

UB

unity · May 23, 2011

I think UB has got an Axe to grind with the industry. Nothing is life ever as black and white as he puts it. And stating that he is a 'grumpy' guy doesn't justify his shitty belittling attitude toward hydro growers. To this point no one has showed up here with a 'smooth' hydro grow while only using the ever so elusive singular product. My thanks to the guys that posted hydro pics, but even those were not 'trouble-free' or additive free, unless you think that h202 is not an additive. Which in my book it clearly is since by using it takes the place of a view additives.
To VictoryGarden, I wonder about you, you 'toot' UB's horn and carry his message around here. You also state that you are convinced that all that stuff is 'snake oils', but then you turn around and make your living by selling the very same 'snake oils' to those that do not know better. You my 'friend' are the very reason these 'snake oils' have made it into your store and into our plants. Profit is just too damn good eh! You are a hypocrite and nothing YOU say on this matter means anything around here.
My bottom line is that I agree that most of the sexy additives are not needed. Some of them are though if you aim for consistent grows year around. Or if you just want to make certain elements available before there are significant troubles. A/B products are in general not overloaded for all stages of growth. A soil grow just doesn't compare to a hydro grow in that regard. When shit goes wrong in soil you can still go on a mini vacation before you have to deal with it, not so in hydro. Thank god I have some of these useless bottles of snake oil sitting around.
I have looked into Dyna grow and Jacks hydro, but even those have to be supplemented according to their own product line. May give Dyna Grow a try next time around if the Masterbubbas I'm growing currently are worth it, that way I could get a comparison. I'm still not sure if my cge is 'worry free' at this point. Uh I can feel it coming, I'm wasting my money with co2 right?!

Kind

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO · May 23, 2011

unity said:
I think UB has got an Axe to grind with the industry. Nothing is life ever as black and white as he puts it. And stating that he is a 'grumpy' guy doesn't justify his shitty belittling attitude toward hydro growers. To this point no one has showed up here with a 'smooth' hydro grow while only using the ever so elusive singular product. My thanks to the guys that posted hydro pics, but even those were not 'trouble-free' or additive free, unless you think that h202 is not an additive. Which in my book it clearly is since by using it takes the place of a view additives.
To VictoryGarden, I wonder about you, you 'toot' UB's horn and carry his message around here. You also state that you are convinced that all that stuff is 'snake oils', but then you turn around and make your living by selling the very same 'snake oils' to those that do not know better. You my 'friend' are the very reason these 'snake oils' have made it into your store and into our plants. Profit is just too damn good eh! You are a hypocrite and nothing YOU say on this matter means anything around here.
My bottom line is that I agree that most of the sexy additives are not needed. Some of them are though if you aim for consistent grows year around. Or if you just want to make certain elements available before there are significant troubles. A/B products are in general not overloaded for all stages of growth. A soil grow just doesn't compare to a hydro grow in that regard. When shit goes wrong in soil you can still go on a mini vacation before you have to deal with it, not so in hydro. Thank god I have some of these useless bottles of snake oil sitting around.
I have looked into Dyna grow and Jacks hydro, but even those have to be supplemented according to their own product line. May give Dyna Grow a try next time around if the Masterbubbas I'm growing currently are worth it, that way I could get a comparison. I'm still not sure if my cge is 'worry free' at this point. Uh I can feel it coming, I'm wasting my money with co2 right?!

Kind

If you came into my store and asked me what I use, I would tell you, I would also tell you about the one part nutes and base nutes plus additives. If you said, I use this and that and I don't want to switch, Then shouldn't I have that on my shelf? How that makes me a hypocrit, I don't know. How many of you were mentioned in the marijuana horticulture growers bible?
I learned more from UB then anyone on this site, and with his help, I grow and smoke some damn good meds for very little $$$
sorry for trying to save you people some money, what assholes we are.

Uncle Ben · May 23, 2011

unity said:
I think UB has got an Axe to grind with the industry. Nothing is life ever as black and white as he puts it. And stating that he is a 'grumpy' guy doesn't justify his shitty belittling attitude toward hydro growers. To this point no one has showed up here with a 'smooth' hydro grow while only using the ever so elusive singular product. My thanks to the guys that posted hydro pics, but even those were not 'trouble-free' or additive free, unless you think that h202 is not an additive. Which in my book it clearly is since by using it takes the place of a view additives.
To VictoryGarden, I wonder about you, you 'toot' UB's horn and carry his message around here. You also state that you are convinced that all that stuff is 'snake oils', but then you turn around and make your living by selling the very same 'snake oils' to those that do not know better. You my 'friend' are the very reason these 'snake oils' have made it into your store and into our plants. Profit is just too damn good eh! You are a hypocrite and nothing YOU say on this matter means anything around here.
My bottom line is that I agree that most of the sexy additives are not needed. Some of them are though if you aim for consistent grows year around. Or if you just want to make certain elements available before there are significant troubles. A/B products are in general not overloaded for all stages of growth. A soil grow just doesn't compare to a hydro grow in that regard. When shit goes wrong in soil you can still go on a mini vacation before you have to deal with it, not so in hydro. Thank god I have some of these useless bottles of snake oil sitting around.
I have looked into Dyna grow and Jacks hydro, but even those have to be supplemented according to their own product line. May give Dyna Grow a try next time around if the Masterbubbas I'm growing currently are worth it, that way I could get a comparison. I'm still not sure if my cge is 'worry free' at this point. Uh I can feel it coming, I'm wasting my money with co2 right?!

Kind

You're politicizing and generally have your facts wrong. That's all I have to say about that. Well, one more thing I guess.

If you need H2O2 because you are losing roots to an anerobic condition, then you need to rethink your garden. It's nothing more than water with an oxygen atom hung to it - very unstable, quickly releasing that O and returning to plain ole water. Ahhhhhhhh, another one. Tell me what's missing in Dyna-Gro Foliage Pro or their Bloom food? http://www.dyna-gro.com/Website pdf Files/DG Foliage-Pro Sht 2003.pdf

If you want to argue, I can and will go toe to toe with you. I refuse to argue with some twit who tries to whip up an Uncle Ben gang bang with intimidation tactics...... ostracizing another member who agrees with me. He clearly states that if you want to use boosters and additives, then knock yourself out. He's also in this to make money and if someone asks for something that he doesn't stock, then he loses profits to the hydro store down the road. I may sell fudge in my store.....doesn't necessarily mean I like fudge.

And yes, more than likely you're wasting your money and time with CO2. Depends....

What I think is happening here is you'd feel more self-confident with a consensus....seen those forum dynamics many a time.

UB

unity · May 23, 2011

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:
If you came into my store and asked me what I use, I would tell you, I would also tell you about the one part nutes and base nutes plus additives. If you said, I use this and that and I don't want to switch, Then shouldn't I have that on my shelf? How that makes me a hypocrit, I don't know. How many of you were mentioned in the marijuana horticulture growers bible?
I learned more from UB then anyone on this site, and with his help, I grow and smoke some damn good meds for very little $$$
sorry for trying to save you people some money, what assholes we are.

What makes you an 'asshole' (for the sake of this argument) is not the 'saving us some money' part (that just deals with your bad conscience since you do know better), what makes you the 'asshole' is that you stock your shelves with useless products and call that a legitimate way of earning a living. I own my business as well, and I do not carry products nor do I install products that are of no use to my customers.

Kind

Harrekin · May 23, 2011

Are you joking me UncleBen? You give me shit for two pages about high P and K ratios, then post a link for a 3-12-6 bloom fert?

No offense but you need to put down the peace pipe apparently, Im not arguing with you anymore considering:
1: You contradicted your WHOLE argument with that link to a high PK Bloom fert.
2: The company you recommended offers an even HIGHER PK "snake oil" (see Mag-Pro).

You stick to old skool methods for old skool yields, Im gonna keep trying new things (that seem reasonable) and improving myself as a grower.

Peace.

insomnia47 · May 23, 2011

unity said:
I think UB has got an Axe to grind with the industry. Nothing is life ever as black and white as he puts it. And stating that he is a 'grumpy' guy doesn't justify his shitty belittling attitude toward hydro growers. To this point no one has showed up here with a 'smooth' hydro grow while only using the ever so elusive singular product. My thanks to the guys that posted hydro pics, but even those were not 'trouble-free' or additive free, unless you think that h202 is not an additive. Which in my book it clearly is since by using it takes the place of a view additives.
To VictoryGarden, I wonder about you, you 'toot' UB's horn and carry his message around here. You also state that you are convinced that all that stuff is 'snake oils', but then you turn around and make your living by selling the very same 'snake oils' to those that do not know better. You my 'friend' are the very reason these 'snake oils' have made it into your store and into our plants. Profit is just too damn good eh! You are a hypocrite and nothing YOU say on this matter means anything around here.
My bottom line is that I agree that most of the sexy additives are not needed. Some of them are though if you aim for consistent grows year around. Or if you just want to make certain elements available before there are significant troubles. A/B products are in general not overloaded for all stages of growth. A soil grow just doesn't compare to a hydro grow in that regard. When shit goes wrong in soil you can still go on a mini vacation before you have to deal with it, not so in hydro. Thank god I have some of these useless bottles of snake oil sitting around.
I have looked into Dyna grow and Jacks hydro, but even those have to be supplemented according to their own product line. May give Dyna Grow a try next time around if the Masterbubbas I'm growing currently are worth it, that way I could get a comparison. I'm still not sure if my cge is 'worry free' at this point. Uh I can feel it coming, I'm wasting my money with co2 right?!

Kind

its not, if your roots are sitting in water all day long you run a higher risk of getting pythium (root rot) h202 keeps shit clean adn sterile. i bet if i washed everything with bleach during every res change and changed out my airstones every other week i wouldnt need it. truth be told, im a stoner, surprise! so im a bit lazy and cheap. a dash of h2o2 to the mix us easy and quick. and epsom salt is only added to make my fertilizer more complete.

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO · May 23, 2011

unity said:
What makes you an 'asshole' (for the sake of this argument) is not the 'saving us some money' part (that just deals with your bad conscience since you do know better), what makes you the 'asshole' is that you stock your shelves with useless products and call that a legitimate way of earning a living. I own my business as well, and I do not carry products nor do I install products that are of no use to my customers.

Kind

again, I put on my shelves what my customers ask for. Figure this one out, I have wholesale access to just about any nute on the market, AND YET I use jack's classic. You would be lucky to find a store owner like me who tells you the truth and not just directs you to the stuff that makes me the most money. I actually make more money selling 20 light set-ups then nutes. and that's giving 20-30% off.

Harrekin · May 23, 2011

insomnia47
Its added, its an additive. Do your plants actually use H2O2 to grow? Could you not grow your plants without it? Its more an issue of your medium being susceptible to pathogens and needing to deal with it, thus adding an additive. And a fert is either complete or not, you cant make it "more complete", thats what we call adding additives

This is the problem with the whole debate, UB turned it into an "all additives are useless" argument when it should have been a debate about WHICH additives are useful and which are not.

unity · May 23, 2011

Inso, you are making my point here, all I'm saying is that we in hydro work with different perimeters then the soil guys. Even within hydro there are several growing styles that would cause me to take certain precautions that I would otherwise not.
According to UB you are only wasting your money on these additional items 'snake oils' you are adding to your res.

Kind

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