Anyone else watching the Kyle Rittenhouse trial?

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watsongreenthumb

Active Member
hanimmal said:
I can agree with everything in this post mostly. Maybe would put out there that the hosts of most actual news shows (not Fox/right wing entertainment cat fishing as news) do keep to reporting and have on guests to push the opinion.

I would just add though that I am a big fan of democracy and our government and economy being stable. Right now unfortunately there really is only one game in town for that, and that is the Democrats.
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Yeah I honestly had high hopes for some real stability when biden took office, and at least compared to the last 4 years that has been true. I had some concerns about biden going further to the left and being really swayed by progressives at a time when we need a steady hand, but other than the situation with the infastructure bill that hasnt seemed to happen too much. He took a lot of flak for afghanistan but I cant see that having gone smoothly no matter who was president. Who knows what the future holds, I just hope we can all be a little more open minded and slow this trend towards more radicalized thinking.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
watsongreenthumb said:
Yeah I honestly had high hopes for some real stability when biden took office, and at least compared to the last 4 years that has been true. I had some concerns about biden going further to the left and being really swayed by progressives at a time when we need a steady hand, but other than the situation with the infastructure bill that hasnt seemed to happen too much. He took a lot of flak for afghanistan but I cant see that having gone smoothly no matter who was president. Who knows what the future holds, I just hope we can all be a little more open minded and slow this trend towards more radicalized thinking.
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There was a lot of propaganda painting him and the progressives as radicals so I can understand the worry.

I am not sure what you mean by 'situation with the infrastructure bill' though. That was bipartisan and really has been pretty bare bones, so not sure what you are saying about it. Other than it was a really important long overdue investment in our nation and gave a gift to the rural areas of our country that are going to be getting broadband access.

But for sure the radicalization has to end. It really has been paralyzing for the last 15 years give or take.
 
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watsongreenthumb

Active Member
hanimmal said:
There was a lot of propaganda painting him and the progressives as radicals so I can understand the worry.

I am not sure what you mean by 'situation with the infrastructure bill' though. That was bipartisan and really has been pretty bare bones, so not sure what you are saying about it. Other than it was a really important long overdue investment in our nation and gave a gift to the rural areas of our country that are going to be getting broadband access.

But for sure the radicalization has to end. It really has been paralyzing for the last 15 years give or take.
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Oh no I think the infastructure bill was great and long overdue, what I meant about issues with progressives was them threatening to sink the bipartisan infrastructure bill unless their demands were met, it slowed the passing of the bill by a couple of months but it seemed to work out eventually. To be honest a lot of my concerns about the progressives came from watching the democratic primary's and hearing some of the ideas they were proposing, lots of things that anyone right of center would get very upset about, and I just don't think now is the time to be pushing divisive agendas, regardless of whether they are progressive or conservative, or whether I personally think they would be a good thing for society or not.
 
doublejj

doublejj

Well-Known Member
watsongreenthumb said:
Oh no I think the infastructure bill was great and long overdue, what I meant about issues with progressives was them threatening to sink the bipartisan infrastructure bill unless their demands were met, it slowed the passing of the bill by a couple of months but it seemed to work out eventually. To be honest a lot of my concerns about the progressives came from watching the democratic primary's and hearing some of the ideas they were proposing, lots of things that anyone right of center would get very upset about, and I just don't think now is the time to be pushing divisive agendas, regardless of whether they are progressive or conservative, or whether I personally think they would be a good thing for society or not.
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It's doesn't take much to upset anyone right of center these days...It's "my way or the highway" with them. see Jan 6th for example
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
watsongreenthumb said:
Oh no I think the infastructure bill was great and long overdue, what I meant about issues with progressives was them threatening to sink the bipartisan infrastructure bill unless their demands were met, it slowed the passing of the bill by a couple of months but it seemed to work out eventually. To be honest a lot of my concerns about the progressives came from watching the democratic primary's and hearing some of the ideas they were proposing, lots of things that anyone right of center would get very upset about, and I just don't think now is the time to be pushing divisive agendas, regardless of whether they are progressive or conservative, or whether I personally think they would be a good thing for society or not.
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Outside of that one comment by Beto, I really don't know what they said that would have been divisive outside of what the right wing propagandists pretended like they said. Mind giving some examples of what you saw/who said it?
 
W

watsongreenthumb

Active Member
hanimmal said:
Outside of that one comment by Beto, I really don't know what they said that would have been divisive outside of what the right wing propagandists pretended like they said. Mind giving some examples of what you saw/who said it?
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Sure there was the comment by Beto that conservatives instantly seized upon, But he wasn't the only one pushing a confiscation/ mandatory buy back program and there were lots of other controversial ideas being thrown around like reparations, universal basic income, Medicaid for all, erasing student loan debt etc.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
watsongreenthumb said:
Sure there was the comment by Beto that conservatives instantly seized upon, But he wasn't the only one pushing a confiscation/ mandatory buy back program and there were lots of other controversial ideas being thrown around like reparations, universal basic income, Medicaid for all, erasing student loan debt etc.
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Fair enough. I don't necessarily see those as radical or controversial, but I can see how others could on the surface. Biden was my top pick from the start so I really was not paying attention to the more fringe candidates pushing the more fringe stuff. Outside of the Universal basic income I really think though that a deep dive into any of those other issues are worth understanding the benefits though.
 
CatHedral

CatHedral

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
Fair enough. I don't necessarily see those as radical or controversial, but I can see how others could on the surface. Biden was my top pick from the start so I really was not paying attention to the more fringe candidates pushing the more fringe stuff. Outside of the Universal basic income I really think though that a deep dive into any of those other issues are worth understanding the benefits though.
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The challenge will become providing universal basic income without inflating the currency.

We will need to deal with this at some time as labor gets steadily replaced by robotics.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
CatHedral said:
The challenge will become providing universal basic income without inflating the currency.

We will need to deal with this at some time as labor gets steadily replaced by robotics.
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IMO it might make more sense to have universal basic needs met (housing/food/education/healthcare), and not worry about if they have pocket money to avoid inflationary pressures.
 
HGCC

HGCC

Well-Known Member
Money seems like the best way to meet housing and food needs. Those are acquired from private individuals, lots of variables in how it gets delivered and what people's needs are.

Education and healthcare, everything is in place already. Buildings, staff, etc. Just bill it to the government rather than the individual.
 
CatHedral

CatHedral

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
IMO it might make more sense to have universal basic needs met (housing/food/education/healthcare), and not worry about if they have pocket money to avoid inflationary pressures.
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The one way I think this could work would be with directed money such as vouchers or even a program eligibility work up. That way no money passes through the beneficiary’s hands.

The trouble is that all these things are measured in dollars and so are still exposed to inflation.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
CatHedral said:
The one way I think this could work would be with directed money such as vouchers or even a program eligibility work up. That way no money passes through the beneficiary’s hands.

The trouble is that all these things are measured in dollars and so are still exposed to inflation.
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There is always going to be inflation when we are paying out about $370 billion on paying back the national debt. So sure it would all be subject to inflation, since everything already is.

Im sure there are lots of studies (actually well done ones and not troll ones that cherry pick data to fit any particular narrative) out there that would show that feeding people who otherwise already need to eat (when we are currently wasting about 40% of the food we produce), and investing in our citizens in housing/healthcare/education would make us far more productive and are not something that would necessarily increase the rate of inflation in the long run.
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
IMO it might make more sense to have universal basic needs met (housing/food/education/healthcare), and not worry about if they have pocket money to avoid inflationary pressures.
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And are you ok with an able bodied person who is able to work refuse a job when he/she doesn’t have to because their basic needs are met? I’m not sure I am. I do think a guaranteed living wage is needed though and should be legislated.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Budley Doright said:
And are you ok with an able bodied person who is able to work refuse a job when he/she doesn’t have to because their basic needs are met? I’m not sure I am. I do think a guaranteed living wage is needed though and should be legislated.
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I am, but I also think that it is a false premise. People will still have every incentive to work, people still will want to improve their lives with 'stuff' or recreation, enjoy a more comfortable retirement, have kids who get to enjoy more, etc.

They just shouldn't have to starve, become homeless, and/or sick if they don't. Which would make it far easier to get back to work when they are ready for whatever reason.
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
I am, but I also think that it is a false premise. People will still have every incentive to work, people still will want to improve their lives with 'stuff' or recreation, enjoy a more comfortable retirement, have kids who get to enjoy more, etc.

They just shouldn't have to starve, become homeless, and/or sick if they don't. Which would make it far easier to get back to work when they are ready for whatever reason.
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But what if the scenario was exactly as I said? Not a false premise at all, it was a question. I would like to think, yes most would like to do exactly as you say.
Edit: I guess you already answered and ya I don’t think I would :(.
 
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hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Budley Doright said:
But what if the scenario was exactly as I said? Not a false premise at all, it was a question. I would like to think, yes most would like to do exactly as you say.
Edit: I guess you already answered and ya I don’t think I would :(.
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If a couple people here and there got food/housing/healthcare/education and didn't end up working?

Yeah I would be fine with it. We already have that now, and always have.

Like all those women whose husbands would not allow them to work. Imagine all those beaten housewives in the decades/centuries past that would not have felt like they had to suffer because of lack of options, or people who were utterly unprepared by their parents and could have really benefitted from better options.

We are a society, it should not/doesn't need to be just immediate family or random strangers who don't have the ability to have the nationwide network to help get our human capital were it is most needed, that is something that we can do with our government. People have so many ways that they can and do contribute to society, using our collective resources to help make sure that they are as ready as possible to do that makes a lot more sense to me.
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
If a couple people here and there got food/housing/healthcare/education and didn't end up working?

Yeah I would be fine with it. We already have that now, and always have.

Like all those women whose husbands would not allow them to work. Imagine all those beaten housewives in the decades/centuries past that would not have felt like they had to suffer because of lack of options, or people who were utterly unprepared by their parents and could have really benefitted from better options.

We are a society, it should not/doesn't need to be just immediate family or random strangers who don't have the ability to have the nationwide network to help get our human capital were it is most needed, that is something that we can do with our government. People have so many ways that they can and do contribute to society, using our collective resources to help make sure that they are as ready as possible to do that makes a lot more sense to me.
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That’s not what I asked. The person was able to, but chose not to, only because his needs were met by the state (public). In order to provide what you describe would certainly have to address exactly what I asked. Because that perception will be one of the biggest hurdles to clear. And as stated earlier what are the basic needs? I do think that if nothing else, a person who is working deserves a wage that allows him/her a somewhat comfortable life.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Budley Doright said:
That’s not what I asked. The person was able to, but chose not to, only because his needs were met by the state (public). In order to provide what you describe would certainly have to address exactly what I asked. Because that perception will be one of the biggest hurdles to clear. And as stated earlier what are the basic needs? I do think that if nothing else, a person who is working deserves a wage that allows him/her a somewhat comfortable life.
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Im not a fan of trying to micro manage people's lives because others might feel like someone is taking advantage of something. We don't have perfect information, because a lot of the worst shit going on in people's lives is also the stuff that tends to be the most hidden.

Basic needs IMO are housing, food, healthcare, education. All easily administered and are long term investments. With those provided there is not really much reason to give them pocket money.
 
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