Any lightworkers?

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
You watched or read "The Secret" didnt you? lol I think the law of attraction works like that, to an extent.
I am a believer in the Law of Attraction and all the Universal Laws. I did Abraham's 30 day challenge and looked into and learned so many things since! We are energy, there is no such thing as time, our thoughts are energy creating our reality, and if you can just stay in the vortex that is your vibration life just works for you.... I just wish I could stay there more often!
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
[video=youtube;8u6BZv6_DLc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u6BZv6_DLc[/video]

New age quantum technobabble compared to star trek technobabble.
 

Chief Walkin Eagle

Well-Known Member
I am a believer in the Law of Attraction and all the Universal Laws. I did Abraham's 30 day challenge and looked into and learned so many things since! We are energy, there is no such thing as time, our thoughts are energy creating our reality, and if you can just stay in the vortex that is your vibration life just works for you.... I just wish I could stay there more often!
What is Abrahams 30 day challenge? I am still skeptical about the Law of Attraction but I think there must be some truth to it. Indeed, we are energy! We are also Love and Light. I wanna post a Bill Hicks quote but I've posted that one too many times already lol. I'll leave you with this guy. I just seen him in concert yesterday and had a fucking BLAST!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qqnx4drrc8
 

Mister Sister

Active Member
Question about the inFact video -

Why does the narrator believe Feng Shui and Reiki are "new age" ?

Is the debate focused solely on the fact the word 'energy' has only one valid definition, that derives from only the english language?

If we haven't detected or been able to detect something, does it matter if that something helps the quality of life of the individual?

I absolutely understand why it's important to discern energy in terms of ability to do 'work', but doesn't this assume that 'work' is only done on a physical level???

If yes, does this mean there are no other levels of existence beyond the physical because we cannot detect them?

Is there a way to quantify something like...a decision, in terms of energy - for example, a simple decision has the (potential) ability to do a lot of 'work' for a person, especially when you consider it over a long period of time.

I am just curious, and hope you find this thread again so I can read your response.

Thanks,

MS
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Why does the narrator believe Feng Shui and Reiki are "new age" ?
Those are two treatments that are supposed to work by influencing or manipulating energy of the new-age variety. New-age in the sense that the term is vague and non descriptive, which is the opposite way in which science uses the term.

Is the debate focused solely on the fact the word 'energy' has only one valid definition, that derives from only the english language?
The problem is that proponents of these beliefs frame their explanation in a scientific context, and then fail to correctly use science words. This is the very definition of pseudoscience.

If we haven't detected or been able to detect something, does it matter if that something helps the quality of life of the individual?
It matters when people want to have insurance or tax money pay for an arbitrarily packaged placebo effect. It matters when people are given false hope and turn away from conventional treatments. It matters when desperate people spend honest money on a service that doesn't exist. It matters when people believe they can control nature through means of magic.

I absolutely understand why it's important to discern energy in terms of ability to do 'work', but doesn't this assume that 'work' is only done on a physical level???
"Energy" and "work" are physics terms, there is no assumption being made. If people want to use the term in a colloquial sense that's fine until they attempt to explain the mechanics of a physical phenomenon.

If yes, does this mean there are no other levels of existence beyond the physical because we cannot detect them?
It doesn't by itself mean that there is nothing beyond the physical, it just means the explanations these people give for their abilities are nonsensical. In addition, the results they give are indistinguishable from the placebo effect. So we have no detectable difference and no plausible explanation. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Is there a way to quantify something like...a decision, in terms of energy - for example, a simple decision has the (potential) ability to do a lot of 'work' for a person, especially when you consider it over a long period of time.
Can you quantify the changes which are influenced by my crossing the street as opposed to if I didn't cross the street? Even if you could, would that quantity be subject to thermodynamics? Would it create heat? If not, then it wouldn't make much sense to call that quantity "energy".
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Here is something I recently wrote about this subject:


My Grandmother, a woman wise beyond her years, was one of the most generous people I have ever known. Even though she lived in poverty by most standards, she always had a little bit of money, or a cool toy, to give to the grandchildren when we'd visit. As we grew up some of us came to rely on her for help from time to time. She couldn't afford a car and didn't have cable TV, yet if you were in a pinch you could always count on her to pull out a wad of money from a stash box, cubbyhole, or some other carefully considered hiding area (it was always different) and make everything okay again. Of course we tried not to take advantage of this, and invariably when someone attempted to pay her back she would refuse, saying she was sure we could use the money more than she. She was a completely selfless woman who derived more joy from seeing her children and grandchildren flourish than she would ever get from spending money on herself. This is why is was so disheartening when, during the last few years of her life, she had to resort to borrowing money.

My Grandma, like most older people, had health problems, though they were comparatively minor. During her efforts to exercise and stay social, she joined an activity center for elderly folks where she met a young woman who introduced her to the idea of aural and soul energy. My grandmother became convinced that her health problems were due to bad energy, and eventually started paying to have her energy cleansed, a service for which she was charged $100 per session. Eventually she found herself in a situation where she had to burden her family to cover the expense of these so-called treatments. Most of us simply saw this as an opportunity to pay her back money that we certainly owed to her, but I know it caused great distress for her to have to ask. She was however afraid that if she stopped having her energy cleansed she would die, and she wanted have as much time to spend with her family as she could. When she finally passed we discovered that she had sold her grave plot, something she was adamant about paying for herself, in order to continue these treatments. My grandma had dedicated the last years of her life to maintaining an energy that never existed.

We see a lot of talk about energy in pseudoscience. We are told Chi is a life energy, ghosts are spiritual energy, psychics can sense negative energy, and crystals can focus healing energy. The problem with these statements is they hold no meaning scientifically and reveal a lack of scientific understanding by those who speak them. Ironically, this sort of language is often used successfully by proponents of pseudoscience to gain a sense of legitimacy.

Energy is a technical term that means only one thing, the ability to do work, a measurable work potential. Energy can be used, it can be stored, but it can not be imprinted onto a house, or felt from negative thoughts. It is not some sort of ghostly cloud that moves around and does things. If ever you hear the word energy being used, replace it with the phrase "ability to do work" and see if it still makes sense. If not, then it's probably a meaningless statement.


Correct use:

These batteries have no energy.
These batteries have no ability to do work.


Incorrect use:
This old house is giving off a lot of demonic energy.
This old house is giving off a lot of demonic ability to do work.

Does this mean that people should always use the term energy in a technical context? Of course not. It's true that it is sometimes helpful to use a word like energy as a sort of placeholder term for a concept you are trying to describe. Someone may say that when they try to focus mental energy into their hands they feel their fingers tingle. This may be useful to help them convey their experience, but just remember, using the term energy in this way does nothing to lend the idea validity.

When making statements about how the world works, anyone who repurposes a word has an obligation to define that word. If they fail to do so, then they are probably trying to take advantage of the general public's understanding of energy to be a science term. They mean to use the word to create a technical sounding framework. Ghost hunters, for example, not only talk about ghost energy, they attempt to detect and measure this energy as if it were quantifiable. New-agers often claim that crystals can amplify energy. These people are obviously not using energy in a colloquial sense, but as a means to skip over the mechanics of their theory.

In pseudoscience energy becomes a catchall term to cover anything that can't be explained; however, in science energy is precisely defined, so it doesn't make much sense to hijack this word to describe something vague. It's a way of talking without giving you any real information. When someone says they can sense spiritual energy, they are really saying "I can sense something that I can't really describe or explain". When someone says god is energy, they are in essence saying "god is something I can't really define or explain". When someone says something like this, they really aren't saying much at all. We are left with begged questions. Is ghost energy subject to entropy? Does spiritual energy follow the laws of thermodynamics? What characteristics distinguish 'bad' energy from 'good' energy? These are just a few of the questions it would seem need to be answered before we could believe these ideas reflect reality.

Another claim we often hear to justify nonsense is that everything is energy. While there is scientific truth to this on some levels, it becomes a meaningless statement unless further context is offered. Without some elaboration, it makes as much sense as saying everything is volume. We hear this statement being made in defense of many different pseudoscientific ideas, including the law of attraction, morphic resonance, hive-mind thoery, pantheism, ESP, and many others. The majority of these ideas would require radically different sets of undiscovered fundamental laws, in other words, they conflict with each other. They can't all be true, yet they all use this same platform from which to launch their unsupported nonsense without bothering to distinguish themselves beyond the idea that everything is energy. It becomes a shorthand way of saying "my pet thoery is supported by science". Remember, in strict technical terms, energy is a measurement of work potential.

When someone is trying to explain a scientific concept, and misuses such a basic scientific word as energy, that person probably doesn't know what they are talking about. This is a huge red flag that should help you spot pseudoscience. I only wish I had been old enough and aware enough to explain this to my grandma, though I like to think she would be happy that it motivated me to learn a valuable lesson myself, and pass it on to others.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
...one thing to contemplate here is that those describing energy are doing their best to discuss something that you feel. Not an easy thing to do. Energy can be studied, seems a respectable thing to do. But, if you study it from the inside out (and really, what doesn't grow that way) without the use of instruments and technology you shouldn't get the same amount of respect. Sorry, I don't see why. Both are respectable, imo.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
Can you quantify the changes which are influenced by my crossing the street as opposed to if I didn't cross the street? Even if you could, would that quantity be subject to thermodynamics? Would it create heat? If not, then it wouldn't make much sense to call that quantity "energy".
...the amount of energy is always the same in a closed system. If you exert 'here' then some 'there' should have to be affected. If you crossed the street you'd have to use energy, and would be creating heat. Ultimately a part of you would have to extend itself in order for you to move across the street. Somewhere an animal or shellfish gave its life so you could replenish and do that again. If you do.

:shock:
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
...one thing to contemplate here is that those describing energy are doing their best to discuss something that you feel. Not an easy thing to do. Energy can be studied, seems a respectable thing to do. But, if you study it from the inside out (and really, what doesn't grow that way) without the use of instruments and technology you shouldn't get the same amount of respect. Sorry, I don't see why. Both are respectable, imo.
I respect the search for knowledge, I do not respect unsupportable answers, especially when they attempt to redefine what we know of the physical world. The people we are talking about are only interested in this energy so far as to provide a plausible sounding explanation. They make a nonsensical assumption and then base solid answers on that assumption and often charge money for it.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
I respect the search for knowledge, I do not respect unsupportable answers, especially when they attempt to redefine what we know of the physical world. The people we are talking about are only interested in this energy so far as to provide a plausible sounding explanation. They make a nonsensical assumption and then base solid answers on that assumption and often charge money for it.
...yeah, don't get me wrong on the plastic shaman :cuss:
 

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
...yeah, don't get me wrong on the plastic shaman :cuss:
Even if they don't charge money, it may still do more harm than good... teaching someone that meditation will help you get over cancer (or any other sickness or disease) rather than seeking medical attention is never a good thing. Meditation is good, don't get me wrong, but it can be bad if you don't teach people the right way to go about it, and teach people the truth about it. Meditation may be good for a healthy, positive, optimistic outlook on life... but it doesn't do any better than any other placebo.
 

Zaehet Strife

Well-Known Member
Here is something I recently wrote about this subject:


My Grandmother, a woman wise beyond her years, was one of the most generous people I have ever known. Even though she lived in poverty by most standards, she always had a little bit of money, or a cool toy, to give to the grandchildren when we'd visit. As we grew up some of us came to rely on her for help from time to time. She couldn't afford a car and didn't have cable TV, yet if you were in a pinch you could always count on her to pull out a wad of money from a stash box, cubbyhole, or some other carefully considered hiding area (it was always different) and make everything okay again. Of course we tried not to take advantage of this, and invariably when someone attempted to pay her back she would refuse, saying she was sure we could use the money more than she. She was a completely selfless woman who derived more joy from seeing her children and grandchildren flourish than she would ever get from spending money on herself. This is why is was so disheartening when, during the last few years of her life, she had to resort to borrowing money.

My Grandma, like most older people, had health problems, though they were comparatively minor. During her efforts to exercise and stay social, she joined an activity center for elderly folks where she met a young woman who introduced her to the idea of aural and soul energy. My grandmother became convinced that her health problems were due to bad energy, and eventually started paying to have her energy cleansed, a service for which she was charged $100 per session. Eventually she found herself in a situation where she had to burden her family to cover the expense of these so-called treatments. Most of us simply saw this as an opportunity to pay her back money that we certainly owed to her, but I know it caused great distress for her to have to ask. She was however afraid that if she stopped having her energy cleansed she would die, and she wanted have as much time to spend with her family as she could. When she finally passed we discovered that she had sold her grave plot, something she was adamant about paying for herself, in order to continue these treatments. My grandma had dedicated the last years of her life to maintaining an energy that never existed.

We see a lot of talk about energy in pseudoscience. We are told Chi is a life energy, ghosts are spiritual energy, psychics can sense negative energy, and crystals can focus healing energy. The problem with these statements is they hold no meaning scientifically and reveal a lack of scientific understanding by those who speak them. Ironically, this sort of language is often used successfully by proponents of pseudoscience to gain a sense of legitimacy.

Energy is a technical term that means only one thing, the ability to do work, a measurable work potential. Energy can be used, it can be stored, but it can not be imprinted onto a house, or felt from negative thoughts. It is not some sort of ghostly cloud that moves around and does things. If ever you hear the word energy being used, replace it with the phrase "ability to do work" and see if it still makes sense. If not, then it's probably a meaningless statement.


Correct use:

These batteries have no energy.
These batteries have no ability to do work.


Incorrect use:
This old house is giving off a lot of demonic energy.
This old house is giving off a lot of demonic ability to do work.

Does this mean that people should always use the term energy in a technical context? Of course not. It's true that it is sometimes helpful to use a word like energy as a sort of placeholder term for a concept you are trying to describe. Someone may say that when they try to focus mental energy into their hands they feel their fingers tingle. This may be useful to help them convey their experience, but just remember, using the term energy in this way does nothing to lend the idea validity.

When making statements about how the world works, anyone who repurposes a word has an obligation to define that word. If they fail to do so, then they are probably trying to take advantage of the general public's understanding of energy to be a science term. They mean to use the word to create a technical sounding framework. Ghost hunters, for example, not only talk about ghost energy, they attempt to detect and measure this energy as if it were quantifiable. New-agers often claim that crystals can amplify energy. These people are obviously not using energy in a colloquial sense, but as a means to skip over the mechanics of their theory.

In pseudoscience energy becomes a catchall term to cover anything that can't be explained; however, in science energy is precisely defined, so it doesn't make much sense to hijack this word to describe something vague. It's a way of talking without giving you any real information. When someone says they can sense spiritual energy, they are really saying "I can sense something that I can't really describe or explain". When someone says god is energy, they are in essence saying "god is something I can't really define or explain". When someone says something like this, they really aren't saying much at all. We are left with begged questions. Is ghost energy subject to entropy? Does spiritual energy follow the laws of thermodynamics? What characteristics distinguish 'bad' energy from 'good' energy? These are just a few of the questions it would seem need to be answered before we could believe these ideas reflect reality.

Another claim we often hear to justify nonsense is that everything is energy. While there is scientific truth to this on some levels, it becomes a meaningless statement unless further context is offered. Without some elaboration, it makes as much sense as saying everything is volume. We hear this statement being made in defense of many different pseudoscientific ideas, including the law of attraction, morphic resonance, hive-mind thoery, pantheism, ESP, and many others. The majority of these ideas would require radically different sets of undiscovered fundamental laws, in other words, they conflict with each other. They can't all be true, yet they all use this same platform from which to launch their unsupported nonsense without bothering to distinguish themselves beyond the idea that everything is energy. It becomes a shorthand way of saying "my pet thoery is supported by science". Remember, in strict technical terms, energy is a measurement of work potential.

When someone is trying to explain a scientific concept, and misuses such a basic scientific word as energy, that person probably doesn't know what they are talking about. This is a huge red flag that should help you spot pseudoscience. I only wish I had been old enough and aware enough to explain this to my grandma, though I like to think she would be happy that it motivated me to learn a valuable lesson myself, and pass it on to others.
Fucking... amazing. Thank you so much.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
Even if they don't charge money, it may still do more harm than good... teaching someone that meditation will help you get over cancer (or any other sickness or disease) rather than seeking medical attention is never a good thing. Meditation is good, don't get me wrong, but it can be bad if you don't teach people the right way to go about it, and teach people the truth about it. Meditation may be good for a healthy, positive, optimistic outlook on life... but it doesn't do any better than any other placebo.
...for sure, but a very good portion of the illnesses out there are caused by the mind. The root, the real reason is to create wellness in the mind. Mind over what? I know it's not that simple. I think that people in countries that have practiced meditation for longer than the west has have longer life spans as compared. I should verify that, could be wrong.

Maybe the point is that you don't get into it looking for a cure (though you are but not in the immediate sense).
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
The Chaser's war on the Law of Attraction.

[video=youtube;usbNJMUZSwo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usbNJMUZSwo[/video]

It's sort of the Aussie version of The Man Show with a skeptical slant. I love near the end of this bit when they try to walk out of stores without paying for items because "we believe we own them."
 
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