Advice Needed- New Grow Tent Cooling

Catoblepas

Active Member
Hi all,

I'm pretty new to this site, but already I've found it extremely helpful for learning about the basics of growing.
Me and my flatmate have taken the plunge and spent around £250 on a grow tent setup, but I'm having real problems with temperatures...

The setup is as follows:

DS60 Tent (60x60x120)
250w HPS Lamp with wing reflector
4" Inline extractor fan with a 4" CF running at around 190 M3/h

I have the CF mounted at the top of the tent with the lamp lowered around the middle above the proposed plant area. The extractor fan is setup next to the CF and blowing the air via ducting out of the tent.
Heres where the problems begin...
I dont have anywhere to vent the air from the tent, so its just being blow into the room its in, the temperature outside the tent is around 75-78f which is pretty good as far as im aware. However inside I cannot get it below like 88f which is not good.

Any tips on what I can do ? We're pretty broke now so spending more cash is probably a no go.

Any help is greatly appreciated !

Cato
 

hoagtech

Well-Known Member
Go to your local hardware store and buy some ducting. Find a way to circulate your air even if it means blowing into the room it's attached to and opening a window. You can't just leave problems like not having a place to ventilate to. Solve it.
 

Catoblepas

Active Member
I'm slightly confused.

There is ducting inside the tent from the fan to the outside of the tent, which is right near a window that is always open. I just cant run ducting from the tent to outside the window.
The temps outside the tent are low, which means the air coming out of the tent should not be affecting the air being sucked into the tent via negative air flow should it ?
 

monty Python

Active Member
A 5 inch fan would help mate if you think you might be able to swap it back at the hydro store. But ofc that would have a knock on effect on ducting size etc. See if they have a high powered 4inch ?

It is a bit of an awkward situation, you need to expell that stale air away mate.

You say the window is always open 24/7 ? And as the tents all set up in the room its not too visible to the public im guessing/hoping ?

Im thinking... you could maybe try this, get an old speaker a rip its insides out, attach your ducting into the back of it and sit it on the window shelf pointing outwards. Stealth speaker. Dont think it would look suspicious at all, just sit some cd cases on top of it and other shit round about it to help it blend in.Its about the only thing i can think of.

I take it when you say you and your flat mate, yous are renting and cant go drilling holes in walls no ?
 

Catoblepas

Active Member
Thanks for the quick reply !

Yeah its rented, we cant be drilling no holes im afraid.
Yeah the issue is stealth, at the moment its fairly hidden and just a black box, ducting on show just makes it too obvious.

So you think simply because the air isn't being pushed away from the tent its making hotter inside even though temps outside the tent are low ? I mean theres no hot air being allowed to leak inside the tent, its all coming out of the top vent.

Not sure about swapping it, was bought online and its all opened/set up now.
 

monty Python

Active Member
Is you tent all zipped up mate ? Zip it all up close all the ports and velcro flaps and turn it on. Tent sides should suck in a good bit. Then open one velcro vent and see how the temps are {open the vent most opposite your extraction side, which is usually the left one}. Also, dont be having your thermometer in direct light.

Yeah the issue is stealth, at the moment its fairly hidden and just a black box, ducting on show just makes it too obvious.
Not trying to be funny... but did you not consider this when deciding to grow ?

Also, how long have you been monitoring the ambient temps ? The heat will gradually build up after a few hours never mind going a full 18/6 mate. Youl prob find after a good few hours the temps will hit mid 90s. Worry about gettng the hot air out, then your intake if need be.
 

Catoblepas

Active Member
Yep its all zipped, and yeah with the vents all tightened and velcro patch put in place the sides suck in, when i take the velcro off it drops the temps a bit but still high 80's.
I cant figure out why its not sucking the 75f air from outside the tent more to be honest.
 

monty Python

Active Member
I cant figure out why its not sucking the 75f air from outside the tent more to be honest.
Not quite sure i follow... but it is... and then its meeting the heat off your light. Remember, 75f is already the ideal temp to be growing mj, never mind the added heat from the light.
 

Catoblepas

Active Member
Is you tent all zipped up mate ? Zip it all up close all the ports and velcro flaps and turn it on. Tent sides should suck in a good bit. Then open one velcro vent and see how the temps are {open the vent most opposite your extraction side, which is usually the left one}. Also, dont be having your thermometer in direct light.

Not trying to be funny... but did you not consider this when deciding to grow ?

Also, how long have you been monitoring the ambient temps ? The heat will gradually build up after a few hours never mind going 18/6 mate. Youl prob find after a good few hours the temps will hit mid 90s.
Well I didn't think hot air being blown over the top of the tent would affect the inside, since the temps outside are low I don't understand how its affecting the inside.
So you're saying the only way to cool it down is to vent the hot air around the top of the tent to a window or door ?
 

monty Python

Active Member
But the temps outside arent that low, thats the thing.

Yes, the only way to cool it is to find somwhere to blow the used air out to, be that a chimney, another seperate room, a window...

I dunno mate, someone may come along and help more, think of somthing i havent etc.

Extractions your most important part of indoor growing im afraid mate.
 

Catoblepas

Active Member
I appreciate all the help I can get, honestly !

Im just puzzled as to why it would alter the temperatures inside the tent by taking warm air thats outside it somewhere else, providing the temps outside aren't too hight. I mean the air coming out of the tent isn't so hot its making the room hot and therefore air being sucked in is already hot as it is. Even if I took ducting from the top of the tent to say outside a window, is that going to drop my temps inside to low 80's ?
Trying desperately to think of other things to try :sad:
 

Catoblepas

Active Member
put ducting towards the window now, left it on for an hour or so and its 95f.
Will an intake fan help enough ?
 

pazuzu420

Well-Known Member
You can make a pretty stealthy window box that will allow you to vent that hot air out of the room and out that window. There are plans for planter boxes and such around but I would just go with some heavy curtains with piece of plywood or other material that covers the whole window with a hole for you vent and paint it dark colored. Open window slightly and the cover with any luck you own't notice from outside.

The following selection was pulled from the Urban Garden Magazine...

We asked two experienced growers (Dan from Oregon and Fred from The Netherlands) to face off with their different opinions on how to calculate your fan requirements. Whose method do you think is best?
Dan’s Method – Calculating By Room Volume

You will find many calculations on the web for sizing a fan for ventilating indoor gardens; however, what many of these calculations fail to take into consideration is the friction loss on carbon filters and increased temperatures from HID lights. So here’s my calculation method, which you can use as a guide for sizing an exhaust fan for a growing area. Keep in mind that this calculation will give you the lowest required CFM (Cubic feet of air per minute) required to ventilate the indoor garden.
Step 1 – Room Volume

First the volume of the room needs to be calculated. To calculate, multiply length x width x height of growing area. For example: a room that is 8′ x 8′ x 8′ will have a volume of 512 cubic feet.
Step 2 – CFM Required

Your extraction fan should be able to adequately exchange the air in an indoor garden once every three minutes. Therefore, 512 cubic feet / 3 minutes = 171 CFM. This will be the absolute minimum CFM for exchanging the air in an indoor garden.
Step 3 – Additional factors

Unfortunately, the minimum CFM needed to ventilate a indoor garden is never quite that simple. Once the grower has calculated the minimum CFM required for their indoor garden the following additional factors need to be considered:
  • Number of HID lights: add 5% per air-cooled light or 10-15% per non-air cooled light.
  • CO2: add 5% for rooms with CO2 enrichment
  • Filters: if a carbon filter is to be used with the exhaust system then add 20%
  • Ambient temperature for hot climates (such as Southern California) add 25%; for hot and humid climates (such as Florida) add up to 40%.
An Example
In our 8’ x 8’ room we have 2 x 1000w air cooled lights, and we plan to use a carbon filter. We also plan to use CO2 in this room. The ambient temperature is 90 °F (32 °C), however, we will be using air from another room that is air-conditioned. Here’s the minimum required CFM to ventilate the room:
1) Calculate the CFM required for room (see above).
2) Add 10% (for 2 air cooled lights).
3) Add 5% of original CFM calculation (for CO2).
4) Add 20% of original CFM calculation for the carbon filter.
5) Air is coming from an air-conditioned room so no need to add any other percentages.
6) CFM = (171CFM) + (171CFM x 10%) + 
(171CFM x 5%) + (171CFM x 20%) + ( 0 )
= 231CFM.
This is the absolute minimum CFM required to ventilate your room.
The next step might seem to match the closest fan to this CFM. However, for this example I’d choose a six inch fan with a CFM of around 400 or more, and a 6 inch carbon filter to match. The extra CFMs may seem a bit excessive (calculations on most indoor gardening websites would recommend a 4” fan and a 4” carbon filter) but it’s always better to over-spec since we need to compensate for air resistance in ducting too.
Also, as we are using a carbon filter we will need to match the fan with the filter so that the fan that will neatly fit onto the filter.
Note: If all the variables are kept the same and we changed the room size from 8’ x 8’ to a 12’ x 12’, then the minimum required CFM would be 519 CFM.
The All-Important Inflow!

An intake port can be anything from a gap under the door to an open window – even a hole in the wall. The best place for an intake port is diagonally opposite from your exhaust fan; that way, air has to pass across the entire room – very efficient. You can put a piece of screen over the opening to keep insects and animals out, a piece of A/C filter to keep dust out, or a louvered shutter or backdraft damper that opens when the fan turns on and closes when it turns off. You can also use a motorized damper. This gets installed in-line with your ducting and is plugged into whatever device controls your exhaust fan. When your fan turns on, it allows air to pass. When your fan shuts off, it seals completely, preventing CO2, air, etc. from passing. You can get creative with these devices and use one fan to control two rooms, etc.
One additional note about intake ports: you will see much better results from your exhaust system if you install a second fan to create an active (as opposed to passive) intake system. Normally, when your exhaust fan sucks air out of your room, air is passively going to get sucked back into the room. By installing a second fan on the intake side, you will reduce the amount of negative pressure created in the indoor garden, thereby cutting down greatly on the amount of work the exhaust fan has to do and allowing much more air to pass through. If you’re not sure or you don’t want to spend the money, start out with just an exhaust fan. If it’s not performing as well as you thought it would, try adding an intake fan – you’ll smile when you see the difference!
Fred’s Method – Calculating By Wattage

Hello there. First off, I’m used to working with Celsius, not Fahrenheit, but I’ve done my best to provide formulas for both. My method for calculating fan requirements does not cover active cooling with air conditioning systems or cool-tube designs. We’re talking about everyday grow chambers here, totally enclosed for air-flow control, with no large amounts of radiant heat into or out of the box. Your mileage may vary some for these reasons.
Right then, let’s get started:
1) Start at the beginning and design this right! Before you even buy or cut anything for your new project, determine the highest temperature that your intake air will ever be when lights run. Call this T (inlet).
2) Use these formulas to determine the difference in temperature you can tolerate. 80 °F (27 °C) is just about the optimal for growing most plants. You can go up to 76 °F (30°C) if you have to, but aim for 80 °F (27 °C).
Tdiff = 27 °C – T (temperature of inlet air)
3) Add up wattage for all power sources in your indoor garden. Lights, pumps, heaters, humidifier, radio, coffee maker, whatever! Add it ALL up and call it Watts. If it is on for more than three minutes and uses more than a watt, add it up. This will make your number worst-case and therefore a conservative value.
4) Compute the absolute minimum fan power you will need using the following formulas. Fan power is measured in the amount of air (cubic feet) shifted per minute. The formula below is the minimum fan rating you must have to achieve your temperature goals. You will have to increase fan power to compensate for duct constriction, small inlets, carbon scrubbers, screens, or other items that block airflow.
CFM = 1.75 x Watts / Tdiff (in Celsius)
If you prefer to work in Fahrenheit, try this formula:
CFM = 3 x Watts / Tdiff (in Fahrenheit)
5) Get at least this fan power or don’t come and ask questions! If you are going to have more than one fan, they should be mounted side-by-side rather than inline if you want to add their different CFM ratings. For inline fans, use the lowest air-flow rating of all fans in the path. A fan on the inlet and a fan on the exhaust of the box are considered inline fans. Fans just circulating air inside the indoor garden should not be counted for airflow but must be included in your initial wattage calculations.
Ok, to see these formulas in action we’re going to have to do a little number crunching:
An Example
Ok, let’s say you have 2000 watts in a 8 foot by 8 foot room with an 8 foot ceiling height.
So what amount of air do I need to move to keep the room at 82°F (28°C)? My incoming air temperatures are 68°F (20°C) during the lights on period.
Tdiff = 28 – 20 = 8°C
For Celsius the formula comes out at:
CFM = 1.75 x 2000 / 8 = 438 CFM
For Fahrenheit we get the following:
Tdiff = 82 – 68 = 14°F
CFM = 3 x 2000 / 14 = 429 CFM
Here’s a quick look-up chart to show some further examples:
Watts

CFM

Tdiff (Fahrenheit)


701613150928150543215075625015052501884400602040013394002405600120156002258100015189*100014221100025012Remember, Tdiff shows how much your temperatures will rise above your inflow air temperature for a given wattage and air movement.
* Just a humorous example. 1000 watts of light with a PC computer fan (15 CFM) – temperatures rise 189°F according to this formula!
If you are adding any carbon scrubbers or extensive ductwork, this is where you add to the fan size to account for air pressure losses. You have to move this many CFM, or the numbers don’t come out right. Exactly how much these items diminish your airflow depends on your exact configuration and is beyond the scope of this introductory article!
What to do when your outside temperatures are higher than your maximum allowed indoor garden temperatures:
You have a few choices:
1) Stop growing for a while ’til things cool off, or try running your grow lamps at night when inlet air will be cooler.
2) Reduce your lighting to drop the heat load. Not good if the incoming air is already over critical when it arrives in the box. Might be possible if the inlet air temperature is lower but you are running too many lights to keep up with the cooling.
3) Use active air conditioning.
 

pazuzu420

Well-Known Member
It is always better to go with a slightly larger fan and tone it down with a variable speed controller. As this will give you adequate ventilation as well as the ability to not have the fan blasting 24hrs a day. They put those packages with the smallest equipment possible for the exhaust and is commonly the first thing upgraded in those package deals.
 

Catoblepas

Active Member
Thanks for the advice guys.

Ive moved the tent to test in a more open environment.
So far in the lounge with the ducting around 1m away from the tent, and a small fan blowing air through the lower duct Im getting temps of around 82-83f with the thermometer at the base of the tent, right underneath the light it goes up to around 86f.
How does this sound ? If not i think im going to go with an air cooled hood :(
 

Lanternslight

Active Member
I feel like the best way to keep the heat from the light is to air cool that baby or just get a sealed hood, which is basically the same as pictured above. Although it has a big piece of glass rather than the tube. I got a small room window AC on sale @Target relatively cheap. Cools the whole room so it chills the tent I have too. You can find these little window fans too. Around the fan section of Target or whatever home store you might be close to, I have heard friends that take their ducting and put it on these to vent outdoors and it not be noticeable.
 

Catoblepas

Active Member
Ok guys I'm nearly there !

So with the new setup (moved ducting and put a fan blowing air into tent) Its down to low 80's in the day and at the moment 79 at night which is all good.
However the fan blowing air into the tent is creating more than the extractor so the tents blowing up.

I'm aware this now means hot air will escape out of any gaps in the tent and with it any smell, but does it completely nullify the carbon filter or just hinder it slightly ? I could live with a tiny bit of a smell for the sake of keeping temps down, but if its going to mean major smell issues Im guessing I need a larger extractor fan to create more suction ?
 
Top