Active Closed Loop system - pneumatic pump?

ICE9

ICE9

New Member
I've been in the extraction game for a while and was looking to start upgrading and maybe start building a closed loop system. I've researched for quite a bit on different setups and methods and whatnot and never could understand why people are using electrical pumps at all in the process of moving butane in a system.

Now I'm for sure not a chemist, but why are people paying like $2k for a explosion proof pump? I feel like thats overkill if you're only running like a pound at a time.

I've not seen this specific question answered, but why doesn't anyone use a pneumatic (air compressor powered) single diaphragm pump? I've seen small stainless ones for like $160 that are designed for acids and solvents. Is this just something people have overlooked because people are quick to adopt whatever method "works"? They're air powered so there's no chance of combustion.

Again, I'm for sure as hell not a chemist, but couldn't you just run a hose from your heated collection vessel to a condenser coil packed in ice or something and then another hose to the pump and then back to the column?

Or am I missing something? Will the pump not draw in the vapor purging off from the heated collection chamber? Am I way off base here? Comments? Snide remarks? :)
 
Fadedawg

Fadedawg

Well-Known Member
We used the Haskel EXT-420, which is pneumatic. A good choice, but you also have to pay for the compressor.
 
chemphlegm

chemphlegm

Well-Known Member
I have a closed loop Tamisium and never considered any pumps, hoses, compressors or condensers.
Extract, reclaim, enjoy.

advantage using an active closed loop with pumps and accessories or just a different method of extraction?
thanks guys?
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
ICE9 said:
I've been in the extraction game for a while and was looking to start upgrading and maybe start building a closed loop system. I've researched for quite a bit on different setups and methods and whatnot and never could understand why people are using electrical pumps at all in the process of moving butane in a system.

Now I'm for sure not a chemist, but why are people paying like $2k for a explosion proof pump? I feel like thats overkill if you're only running like a pound at a time.

I've not seen this specific question answered, but why doesn't anyone use a pneumatic (air compressor powered) single diaphragm pump? I've seen small stainless ones for like $160 that are designed for acids and solvents. Is this just something people have overlooked because people are quick to adopt whatever method "works"? They're air powered so there's no chance of combustion.

Again, I'm for sure as hell not a chemist, but couldn't you just run a hose from your heated collection vessel to a condenser coil packed in ice or something and then another hose to the pump and then back to the column?

Or am I missing something? Will the pump not draw in the vapor purging off from the heated collection chamber? Am I way off base here? Comments? Snide remarks? :)
Click to expand...
I worked as a researcher in an industrial chem lab. There was one refrigerator that was apparently not explosion-proof. Somebody set a benzene recrystallization into it. Some hours later, the refrigerator door was shot through a cinderblock wall. (Somebody had to re-prep a metric fuckton of intermediate substance.)

Explosion-proof appliances use non-sparking motors. With hydrocarbon-air mixtures, I consider the cost of an explosion-proof pump to be entirely warranted.
 
ICE9

ICE9

New Member
I understand why to use something like a explosion proof pump in a large scale application where you need to move a lot of liquid. But as far as just running like a pound of material for small scale productions, would it be just as effective to use a small pump that is basically just the end head component of one of those mechanical pumps that's driven by air so there isn't an electrical component involved in the first place?

image.jpg
This is kind of like what I was talking about, but there's other materials and whatnot. There are ones made entirely of polypropylene. I'm not trying to move like gallons of butane, just enough for a one pound column. I'm just curious if that would work or not and if it would be worth it for larger yields for product that will be used for like edibles or tinctures. I'm assuming it would kind of degrade the quality of the end product a little even though the yield would be higher since it would be stripping out like every drop, so it probably wouldn't be as good for dabbing. But I don't know if and what kind of added yield it would produce and whether it would be worth the effort/money. It's just a curiousity/idea I had that I figured smarter people than me would have the answer to, lol.
 
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Fadedawg

Fadedawg

Well-Known Member
chemphlegm said:
I have a closed loop Tamisium and never considered any pumps, hoses, compressors or condensers.
Extract, reclaim, enjoy.

advantage using an active closed loop with pumps and accessories or just a different method of extraction?
thanks guys?
Click to expand...
Aside from speed and volume, Passive is not a safe process without at least a vacuum pump to void the system of oxygen first.

Have you tried to do cotton candy without a vacuum pump?
 

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Fadedawg

Fadedawg

Well-Known Member
ICE9 said:
I understand why to use something like a explosion proof pump in a large scale application where you need to move a lot of liquid. But as far as just running like a pound of material for small scale productions, would it be just as effective to use a small pump that is basically just the end head component of one of those mechanical pumps that's driven by air so there isn't an electrical component involved in the first place?

View attachment 4066749
This is kind of like what I was talking about, but there's other materials and whatnot. There are ones made entirely of polypropylene. I'm not trying to move like gallons of butane, just enough for a one pound column. I'm just curious if that would work or not and if it would be worth it for larger yields for product that will be used for like edibles or tinctures. I'm assuming it would kind of degrade the quality of the end product a little even though the yield would be higher since it would be stripping out like every drop, so it probably wouldn't be as good for dabbing. But I don't know if and what kind of added yield it would produce and whether it would be worth the effort/money. It's just a curiousity/idea I had that I figured smarter people than me would have the answer to, lol.
Click to expand...
That pump appears to be a liquid pump. Do you have performance criteria on vapors?
 
chemphlegm

chemphlegm

Well-Known Member
Fadedawg said:
Aside from speed and volume, Passive is not a safe process without at least a vacuum pump to void the system of oxygen first.

Have you tried to do cotton candy without a vacuum pump?
Click to expand...
never made cotton candy, just oil, yours looks appealing. I used a vac chamber before I had the tami but never since.
what safety issues come with a passive system ?:o
 
Fadedawg

Fadedawg

Well-Known Member
chemphlegm said:
never made cotton candy, just oil, yours looks appealing. I used a vac chamber before I had the tami but never since.
what safety issues come with a passive system ?:o
Click to expand...
The one most often ignored is the need to vacuum the system down, to remove the oxygen, before injecting the LPG. Tami's original process was to float the atmosphere out with the LPG.

We also vacuum down our active systems at the end and back fill with N2, so that when we open we are below LEL.

Some passive recovery systems use a N2 boost, so that step could be easily incorporated, and as long as the vacuum pump is NEMA 7, Class I, Div I, you could also safely make cotton candy with a passive system.

I don't see innately unsafe features on the Tamisium, but have seen them and other passive systems operated unsafely.
 
chemphlegm

chemphlegm

Well-Known Member
I use gravity to inject/pour the room temp ntane through, as the tank is filling with solvent and concentrate there comes a point where no more ntane will move into the tank because of the back pressure, I bleed off the top(air) of the (cold) tank to the outdoor tube to make more room for the remainder of the solvent/concentrate which freely flows immediately after.

In recovery I warm the tank on a 90f pad while the recovery is chilled and reclaiming. The same pressure happens and I bleed it the same. If I'm really patient I lose less than 25g of ntane during the bleeding.
I suspect the pressure is the concern you mention? I've used the pressure gauge but never saw any high enough to cause me any concern, (of the rubber o ring blowing, hissing ntane out). If I did I think the chilled ntane would rest in the bottom of the recovery tank and not leak out anyways, but never happened so not sure. when its chilled the valve can be opened and no/little solvent exits(until warmed)
I'd be uncomfortable heating and building high pressures, but thats one beauty I found when I chose the system, no pressures, slight warm/cold to manipulate the solvent, etc.
 
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