Abortion, if you object does that mean you want to control women's uteri

desert dude · Dec 1, 2012

UncleBuck said:
i believe women should have complete autonomy and liberty over their bodies, whereas you believe in imposing arbitrary authoritarian morality on them.

and one of us calls ourselves a libertarian, but it's not who you would think based on the above description.

Libertarians have as much disagreement about abortion as everybody else. Some are completely against abortion, some completely support it no matter what, and some are like me, supportive but cognizant of the fact that at some point in the process there are two sentient beings involved, a viable baby and a woman deciding to abort.

Can you bring yourself to just say it, you support abortion-on-demand all the way up to 40 weeks gestation and beyond? If you can't bring yourself to say it, then you must agree with me. I can't say it. I believe that abortion should not be allowed after the baby is a viable human being. That is the point of this thread.

Standard disclaimer: there are situations where I would support a late term abortion, e.g. medical experts have determined that the women will die without an end to the pregnancy.

desert dude · Dec 1, 2012

UncleBuck said:
and desert dumb, you never told me what the punishment would be for women who refuse to yield autonomy of their bodies to your moral authoritarianism after 12 weeks, nor have you told me how the government would go about monitoring every fetus in existence within our borders.

Standard laws as existed before Roe V Wade. Not so complicated, really.

UncleBuck · Dec 1, 2012

desert dude said:
Libertarians have as much disagreement about abortion as everybody else. Some are completely against abortion, some completely support it no matter what, and some are like me, supportive but cognizant of the fact that at some point in the process there are two sentient beings involved, a viable baby and a woman deciding to abort.

Can you bring yourself to just say it, you support abortion-on-demand all the way up to 40 weeks gestation and beyond? If you can't bring yourself to say it, then you must agree with me. I can't say it. I believe that abortion should not be allowed after the baby is a viable human being. That is the point of this thread.

Standard disclaimer: there are situations where I would support a late term abortion, e.g. medical experts have determined that the women will die without an end to the pregnancy.

so libertarians disagree about how much liberty people should be given?

so does everybody else.

UncleBuck · Dec 1, 2012

desert dude said:
Standard laws as existed before Roe V Wade. Not so complicated, really.

so if a woman goes against your moral authoritarianism (which you call liberty, LOL) and has an abortion at 12 weeks and a day, what punishment does she get and what punishment does the doctor get?

how shall we punish women for exercising autonomy over their bodies and defying your moral authoritarianism? and how do we get government to monitor every pregnancy in the nation?

cannabineer · Dec 1, 2012

desert dude said:
My rationale is not reasoned, it is a simple statement that at some point it is no longer moral to abort a fetus. I could support the 20 week limit for similar reasons. I have thought about the solo viability point as a reasonable cutoff as well.

What I cannot get my head around is the hard core position that abortion of a fetus at any point during gestation is just peachy.

Ron Paul tells a story of watching a late term abortion when he was in training to become an obstetrician. The doctor removed a fetus that was moving, and gasping for air and placed it in a bucket to die. Just the description seems absolutely horrifying. RP said that experience cemented his position against abortion.

Thanks for the plain reply. We agree in principle. The problem is where to draw the line. My reservation with your early numbers is that with the way pregnancies are counted: not many women are aware of being pregnant until week six or so, as it's counted from last menstruation. By week twelve, how many women are sure they're pregnant? Some are spectacularly barfingly aware, but not all. Women need some reasonable amount of time to be sure of the pregnancy and come to terms with a hard choice ... and engage the machinery of the healthcare system. Jmo. cn

desert dude · Dec 1, 2012

UncleBuck said:
so if a woman goes against your moral authoritarianism (which you call liberty, LOL) and has an abortion at 12 weeks and a day, what punishment does she get and what punishment does the doctor get?

how shall we punish women for exercising autonomy over their bodies and defying your moral authoritarianism? and how do we get government to monitor every pregnancy in the nation?

As I said in multiple posts, the 12 week suggestion is merely a suggestion.

Please propose a different gestational period, Buck? 30 weeks, 35, 39, 39.999, 1299...?

Punishment... same as manslaughter, maybe. What do you think?

desert dude · Dec 1, 2012

cannabineer said:
Thanks for the plain reply. We agree in principle. The problem is where to draw the line. My reservation with your early numbers is that with the way pregnancies are counted: not many women are aware of being pregnant until week six or so, as it's counted from last menstruation. By week twelve, how many women are sure they're pregnant? Some are spectacularly barfingly aware, but not all. Women need some reasonable amount of time to be sure of the pregnancy and come to terms with a hard choice ... and engage the machinery of the healthcare system. Jmo. cn

OK, I can agree with your objections. As you said, we agree in principle.

UncleBuck · Dec 1, 2012

desert dude said:
Punishment... same as manslaughter, maybe. What do you think?

LOL.

"liberty means punishing women with jail time for manslaughter if they defy my moral authoritarianism and exercise autonomy over their own bodies"

desert dude · Dec 1, 2012

UncleBuck said:
LOL.

"liberty means punishing women with jail time for manslaughter if they defy my moral authoritarianism and exercise autonomy over their own bodies"

Please propose a different gestational period, Buck? 30 weeks, 35, 39, 39.999, 1299...?

UncleBuck · Dec 1, 2012

desert dude said:
Please propose a different gestational period, Buck? 30 weeks, 35, 39, 39.999, 1299...?

i am not prepared to impose moral authoritarianism onto others, unlike you.

i don't happen to believe that women are too dumb to make that decision on their own, like you clearly believe them to be.

desert dude · Dec 1, 2012

UncleBuck said:
i am not prepared to impose moral authoritarianism onto others, unlike you.

i don't happen to believe that women are too dumb to make that decision on their own, like you clearly believe them to be.

So, you support a woman's right to toss her new born into the dumpster?

UncleBuck · Dec 1, 2012

desert dude said:
So, you support a woman's right to toss her new born into the dumpster?

when did i say that?

desert dude · Dec 1, 2012

UncleBuck said:
when did i say that?

Just trying to pin you down on the matter. I want the words to flow from your mind to your fingertips and onto the internet. You support an abortion all the way up to the point where the baby's head is "crowning" in the woman's birth canal. If you can't say that, if it is too morally painful for you then you agree with me in the matter.

FlyLikeAnEagle · Dec 1, 2012

Funny how conservatives fight for unborn children yet have no problem letting them starve, denying them healthcare, and sending them off to war once they are born.

UncleBuck · Dec 1, 2012

desert dude said:
Just trying to pin you down on the matter. I want the words to flow from your mind to your fingertips and onto the internet. You support an abortion all the way up to the point where the baby's head is "crowning" in the woman's birth canal. If you can't say that, if it is too morally painful for you then you agree with me in the matter.

you seem to have this notion that women are dumb, ruthless killers and would never exercise their liberty or autonomy responsibly without you there to impose your moral authoritarianism upon them.

desert dude · Dec 1, 2012

UncleBuck said:
you seem to have this notion that women are dumb, ruthless killers and would never exercise their liberty or autonomy responsibly without you there to impose your moral authoritarianism upon them.

So, you can't say it, you agree with me and several others here that at some point in the gestational period a fetus becomes a baby and deserves legal standing and protection from being murdered.

UncleBuck · Dec 1, 2012

desert dude said:
So, you can't say it, you agree with me and several others here that at some point in the gestational period a fetus becomes a baby and deserves legal standing and protection from being murdered.

i never agreed with you.

if the mother chased the fetus down a dark alley and shot it (in "self defense", of course), i'm sure you would finally defend the mother as a rational human who doesn't need your morality imposed upon her.

cannabineer · Dec 1, 2012

UncleBuck said:
i never agreed with you.

if the mother chased the fetus down a dark alley and shot it (in "self defense", of course), i'm sure you would finally defend the mother as a rational human who doesn't need your morality imposed upon her.

I have the silliest vision of the mother being towed by the umbilicus ... cn

fdd2blk · Dec 1, 2012

UncleBuck said:
i never agreed with you.

if the mother chased the fetus down a dark alley and shot it (in "self defense", of course), i'm sure you would finally defend the mother as a rational human who doesn't need your morality imposed upon her.

you forgot to say "authoritarianism".

UncleBuck · Dec 1, 2012

fdd2blk said:
you forgot to say "authoritarianism".

i like turtles.

Abortion, if you object does that mean you want to control women's uteri

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