Berry Ryder - WTF let's SEED ONE again Doh!!

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EverythingsHazy

Well-Known Member
HighLowGrow said:
What about bringing more Berry Ryder pollen back in to the BKR? In other words, grow out several BKRs and hit them with fresh Berry Pollen.
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That's called backcrossing, and is used to make the new strain more like the parent you choose to backcross to. The labeling is kind of confusing, but it is considered a "bc1"... I don't know if that translates exactly into "f1" for purposes of then inbreeding (ei. bc1 x bc1 = f2?), tho. I know it doesn't just continue with the next number after where it was left off (the generation of offspring used to make the bc1 generation).

tekdc911 said:
(berry x akr ) x berry ? that would be a back cross ;)
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Posted when I was clicking Post Reply lol.
 
tekdc911

tekdc911

Well-Known Member
EverythingsHazy said:
That's called backcrossing, and is used to make the new strain more like the parent you choose to backcross to. The labeling is kind of confusing, but it is considered a "bc1"... I don't know if that translates exactly into "f1" for purposes of then inbreeding (ei. bc1 x bc1 = f2?), tho. I know it doesn't just continue with the next number after where it was left off (the generation of offspring used to make the bc1 generation).


Posted when I was clicking Post Reply lol.
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bc1 x bc1 is a F1 as far as i know ... all i know is the basics .... but i believe " poly hybrid " might be a better term until siblings start to be bred out


im just tossing this out there but its hard to beat the stability and hybrid vigor you get from F1's
plants are damn near 50/50 1/2 will look like mom and the other half will look like mom/dad
 
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EverythingsHazy

Well-Known Member
tekdc911 said:
have you heard of punnet squares ? reading up on that would help wrap your head around all of it
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tekdc911 said:
bc1 x bc1 is a F1 as far as i know ... all i know is the basics .... but i believe " poly hybrid " might be a better term until siblings start to be bred out
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Me? Yea, I've done a lot of reading on Punnet Squares, for plant breeding. I always thought of bc1's as f1's as well, but I wasn't sure if it was incorrect to label them as that, or to just label the next generation "f2" with nothing else there to show that the previous was a backcross.
 
tekdc911

tekdc911

Well-Known Member
EverythingsHazy said:
Me? Yea, I've done a lot of reading on Punnet Squares, for plant breeding. I always thought of bc1's as f1's as well, but I wasn't sure if it was incorrect to label them as that, or to just label the next generation "f2" with nothing else there to show that the previous was a backcross.
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lol punnet squares was for highlow.... that would be your call i guess on labeling ..... usually i name the cross out (AxB) x C or whatever until later on .... there is set in stone shit on labeling but it gets confusing a bit when the masses absorb the info then dish it back out .... old timers have there own lingo and the youngsters have their own ... but i think a F1 might be any cross now that i read a bit

this is from wiki
An F1 hybrid (or filial 1 hybrid) is the first filial generation of offspring of distinctly different parental types.[1] F1 hybrids are used in genetics, and in selective breeding, where it may appear as F1 crossbreed. The term is sometimes written with a subscript, as F1 hybrid.[2][3] The offspring of distinctly different parental types produce a new, uniformphenotype with a combination of characteristics from the parents. In fish breeding, those parents frequently are two closely related fish species, while in plant and animal genetics the parents usually are two inbred lines. Mules are F1 hybrids between horse and donkey. Today, certain domestic–wild hybrid breeds, such as the Savannah cat, are classified by their filial generation number.

Gregor Mendel focused on patterns of inheritance and the genetic basis for variation. In his cross-pollination experiments involving two true-breeding, or homozygous, parents, Mendel found that the resulting F1 generation were heterozygous and consistent. The offspring showed a combination of the phenotypes from each parent that were geneticallydominant. Mendel’s discoveries involving the F1 and F2 generations laid the foundation for modern genetics.
 
HighLowGrow

HighLowGrow

Well-Known Member
tekdc911 said:
(berry x akr ) x berry ? that would be a back cross ;) and it would be back to F1/hybrid/cross
when you breed siblings with siblings its to stabilize what ever traits youre after ..... when you back cross its going to bring the percentage of berry like plants up ... prolly way up
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This is what I was thinking and made sense. It's exactly what I want.

I happen to have a Berry in the room at the perfect age to start spraying. Today I started misting two small lower branches with TMist. I'll hit a BKR with this pollen and see what those seeds produce. That's ok if it starts me over at F1. I really like AKR and really really like Berry Ryder.
 
tekdc911

tekdc911

Well-Known Member
HighLowGrow said:
This is what I was thinking and made sense. It's exactly what I want.

I happen to have a Berry in the room at the perfect age to start spraying. Today I started misting two small lower branches with TMist. I'll hit a BKR with this pollen and see what those seeds produce. That's ok if it starts me over at F1. I really like AKR and really really like Berry Ryder.
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but until you start narrowing traits down its still gonna be around 50/50 bkr/br
.... F1's are really stable like that then as you go along and make selections it starts scattering out and giving a wider variance plant to plant F3 is kinda random mash up and then as you go further into selection it starts narrowing back down .... traits are more stable but at a certain point you start to lose the hybrid vigor ( disclaimer**** just my opinion o_O )

if you want the berry hairs then you need pollen from a berry that has the trait and cross it with a BKR that has the same trait ..... to do this correctly you'll wanna grow out alot of BKR's till you find just that right one ( prolly easier to grow out a multi pot and pollenate them all so you dont miss anything special ):D then repeat when crossing the siblings
 
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diystealthgrower

diystealthgrower

Well-Known Member
HighLowGrow said:
@bf80255 Running a few PPF4 crosses. Amnesia and WW. All turned out fems. The WW is a small lil feller.
First pic...my PP(F4) great color and great smell! maybe i won't fuck it up next time and get better results next round.

Second & Third- Pic...WW x PP..looking pretty damn good growing single stick cola style

4th pic....Amnesia x PP...fuckin monster..had to put in its own tent.. what a beast...smell is fantastic..will be helluva producer.
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EverythingsHazy

Well-Known Member
tekdc911 said:
"An F1 hybrid (or filial 1 hybrid) is the first filial generation of offspring of distinctly different parental types.[1] F1 hybrids are used in genetics, and in selective breeding, where it may appear as F1 crossbreed. The term is sometimes written with a subscript, as F1 hybrid.[2][3] The offspring of distinctly different parental types produce a new, uniformphenotype with a combination of characteristics from the parents. In fish breeding, those parents frequently are two closely related fish species, while in plant and animal genetics the parents usually are two inbred lines. Mules are F1 hybrids between horse and donkey. Today, certain domestic–wild hybrid breeds, such as the Savannah cat, are classified by their filial generation number.
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The part I bolded is what was getting me confused. Is Berry Ryder considered "distinctly different" from a hybrid that is already half Berry Ryder? Especially if the new hybrid hasn't been inbred for very many generations by the time of the backcrossing.

Also, in regards to @HighLowGrow and adding Berry Ryder pollen to his BKR strain, it is important to note whether or not the BR pollen is from the same plant that was used to make the initial cross, or if it is from another Berry Ryder plant. If it is from a different plant from the same strain, it isn't still considered a backcross is it? Technically the new pollen donor isn't one of the parents. It just shares a lot of the genes as one of the parental lines.
 
bf80255

bf80255

Well-Known Member
HighLowGrow said:
Ok then. Sounds like the fix might be to:

1. Reverse a BKR as normal and collect some pollen.
2. Grow out several BKRs.
3. Hit your selected plant or plants with the pollen. Now these seeds would be F2s.

4. Now grow out the F2s and this is where I get stuck.

Does the process start all over. As in - Do I grow out an F2 plant and reverse it to collect the pollen.

Grow out several F2s.

Hit the selected plant or plants with the pollen. Now these seeds would be F3s.


I think I'm off about the pollen. I still haven't done my reading.
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I would suggest you then grow out about 10 females from the F2 population to get an idea of what that lot will throw and then select towards plants that exhibit the desired phenotype with full sibling crosses using only reversed females for pollen and by the F4 they should start getting pretty stable + uniform.

So lets say u find a super frosty baby shit pheno you love in the original 10 females u grow, Ideally you would have CS'd that individual and collected pollen, then grow a few more and look for the plants that you like and pollinate them with that special girls pollen. You will probably need to pollinate all of the ones you grow out and at least 10-20 to have the best chance of getting another one like the original "special" girl but if you successfully pollinate and get seeds off of a similar plant youll have a really great start for your F3 with a lot more genetic diversity (avoids inbreeding depression) than if you had just selfed a nice plant.

each subsequent generation will be a new F so
P1 X P1 produces F1 seeds
F1 is the initial cross, F2 is F1 brother X F1 sisters progeny
F3 is F2brother X F2 sisters progeny etc etc

The F stands for Filial-
Filial-
of, relating to, or befitting a son or daughter:
filial obedience.
2.
noting or having the relation of a child to a parent.
3.
Genetics. pertaining to the sequence of generations following the parental generation, each generation being designated by an F followed by a subscript number indicating its place in the sequence.

then you get into backcrossing and all that other crazy shit haha
 
bf80255

bf80255

Well-Known Member
HighLowGrow said:
What about bringing more Berry Ryder pollen back in to the BKR? In other words, grow out several BKRs and hit them with fresh Berry Pollen.
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You can find really strongly berry leaning phenos if thats what your after in the F2 and F3 but they will be homozygous for the traits your after unlike the berry ryder so they will be much more valuable breeding stock, reintroducing more berry genes would esentially be performing a berry ryder backcross, which is not to say thats a bad thing just not what your after. when breeders do this kind of backcross theyll usually cross the berry to the akr in hopes of getting 1 or 2 valuable traits (like resin production or terpene aroma) but keeping the overall strain relatively similar to the berry strain by backcrossing 2 or 3 times and selecting towards that unique trait.

by making cross on top of cross on top of cross you lose all the genetic stability of your line thats the point of inbreeding is to purge the line of shitty traits and maintain the beneficial traits within that line. If you reintroduced the berry all the work youd done up till that point will basically have been a wash because the old berry is from a less refined line.(not necessarily but a rule I like to follow)
 
HighLowGrow

HighLowGrow

Well-Known Member
So i need to stop and rethink this over. Ok I'm done. lol

Bare with me here. I took Berry pollen and dusted an AKR. Now I have BKR F1 seeds which I am growing out a few now.

Let's start over....

F1

1. I have fem BKR F1 seeds. Now I need to grow out 11 or so (in a tote HLG - hit up bf80255) and hit one of these with TMist.
2. Take that pollen and dust all 10 plants. At this point I have 10 seeded plants. I will take notes until harvest.

Now I have 10 lots of seeds. Now in those 10 plants I find one that is overly "Frosty" and just love the thing. These seeds are F2

F2

Now I have a lot of F2 seeds from the "Frosty" plant.

Now I need to grow out 11 or so and hit one of these with TMist.
Take that pollen and dust all 10 plants. At this point I have 10 seeded plants. I will take notes until harvest.

Now I have 10 lots of seeds. Now in those 10 plants I find one that has black hairs and frosty and just love the thing. These seeds are F3

F3

Now I have a lot of F3 seeds that include black hairs and is frosty.


Say I want to stop there. I have the frosty buds with black hairs. Now what?
___________________________________________________

Basically everything after "F1" is a question because I don't know what I am talking about, but I am getting excited. I just used 10 plants for simple minds like mine.

Am I close???
 
HighLowGrow

HighLowGrow

Well-Known Member
A Berry I have going. Started to mist with TMist. Aborted today. Cool growth up top. I did nothing to the top. It must have a name.

10_13_15.JPG10_13_15a.JPG10_13_15b.PNG
 
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EverythingsHazy

Well-Known Member
HighLowGrow said:
So i need to stop and rethink this over. Ok I'm done. lol

Bare with me here. I took Berry pollen and dusted an AKR. Now I have BKR F1 seeds which I am growing out a few now.

Let's start over....
F1

1. I have fem BKR F1 seeds. Now I need to grow out 11 or so (in a tote HLG - hit up bf80255) and hit one of these with TMist.
2. Take that pollen and dust all 10 plants. At this point I have 10 seeded plants. I will take notes until harvest.

Now I have 10 lots of seeds. Now in those 10 plants I find one that is overly "Frosty" and just love the thing. These seeds are F2

F2

Now I have a lot of F2 seeds from the "Frosty" plant.

Now I need to grow out 11 or so and hit one of these with TMist.
Take that pollen and dust all 10 plants. At this point I have 10 seeded plants. I will take notes until harvest.

Now I have 10 lots of seeds. Now in those 10 plants I find one that has black hairs and frosty and just love the thing. These seeds are F3

F3

Now I have a lot of F3 seeds that include black hairs and is frosty.


Say I want to stop there. I have the frosty buds with black hairs. Now what?
___________________________________________________

Basically everything after "F1" is a question because I don't know what I am talking about, but I am getting excited. I just used 10 plants for simple minds like mine.

Am I close???
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Once you find a plant with all the traits you are looking for, you can just keep selfing it for several generations until the strain is stable and all of its offspring are the same pheno.

What main monogenetic traits (ones that are either on or off, such as purple or green) do you want the new strain to have?

Start by trying to stabilize those traits. Then you can move on to ones that are controlled by multiple genes, such as overall plant structure and potency.

From what your said, it sounds like you want a plant that is a mix between BR and AKR, leaning on the BR side, that has a small amount of pistils, and smells like one of your bkr's.

That's 3 things. From what you've said about the pistil formation and density, it may be a simple trait to stabilize, especially since you say it is more like the BR than the AKR, and that's what you want to be dominant anyway. You also don't have a single chosen smell preference, which means you don't have to redo the entire stabilizing process that you did for the pistil formation, for the smell as well. if you do come across one smell that stands out, you can always do a few generations of selfing, or backcross and work your way up again. Just make sure you don't undo your previous work in your backcross, by choosing a plant that will scramble the pistil formation and berry Ryder dominance. Try to use a plant from the closest generation that is as close to the other parent as possible, to save time.


I would personally take your bkr f1's and grow out a small bunch like you are doing. Then find the one with the best pistil structure, and cross it with a pure BR (try to save some of this pollen for the next one or two generations as well, so you don't introduce new genes in when you backcross to BR, since not every BR is the same).

All of those offspring will be f1 bkr's ((BR x AKR) x BR), but unlike your current batch of f1's they should be 75:25 BR:AKR instead of 50:50.

Grow out a small bunch of these new f1's, and see if they are BR dominant enough for you. If not, cross the one with the most desirable pistil structure, with the stored BR pollen from the last cross. Basically repeating the last step. This time, the new f1's will be 87.5/12.5 BR/AKR.

When you are happy with the Berry Ryder dominance in the f1's, cross two f1's together, or self one.
This is when (f2) you should see a lot of variation.

((BR x AKR ) x BR)) x ((BR x AKR) x BR)) = f2 *different phenotype a will show up here.

Select your favorite f2 with a small amount of pistils, and self it.

At this point (f3), you should have pretty uniform pistil production on all the offspring. The other traits will all be varying still, tho.

What you'll want to do here, is pick the offspring that smells the best,!-'d self it, cross it with another offspring that has the same smell, or cross two different ones, if you like multiple smells and don't have a preference which makes it to the final strain. This will create your f4's.

Then just continue inbreeding until you hit f7 or so, and your strain will be very stable. You can get decent stability for some traits sooner than f7, but for the plants to be almost completely uniform, you'll want to try to get to at least f7.
 
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