Herm?/Pollen Collection
- Thread starter GrowinDad
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GOLDBERG71
Well-Known Member
You don't want pollen from a hermie! You want pollen from a female. That takes chemicals and must start before you flip timers. The other way would be to wait longer to chop your plants. As a last ditch effort many plants if not pollinated late in flower will produce a few pollen sacs or naners. This happens only LATE in flower. If it happens earlier in flowering phase that's a hermie and you want to avoid it. Or you'll be passing in that trait. You don't want a crop of hermies do you?
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Not a herm DAD......reveg is it....
Not necessarily!
That is a very popular myth in reality!
Selfing even if it's from a herm will not bring out (better then 98% of the time) or increase any traits! It is an exact copy of the mother no mater how it self's!
That is called an S1 seed....It IS better to treat a bud and "bag it" for the seeds....This too is selfing and will create S1 seeds...The pollen will be NO different from the herming as your actually forcing the plant TO herm by chemical means.......
Understand that?
Even if a plant herms FROM genetic predisposition.....There are chances that those seeds will not ALL herm as the genetics are "kinda" unstable and throwing differing pheno's......You are most likely dealing with herming F1's or F2's.....The bigger the F#....the more chance the seeds will all herm as this brings out more and "purer" genetic "traits or single trait differing Pheno's....
If the plant hermed the biggest chance it did it is from environmental situations......There are pheno's that herm and that is from a trait passed from the actual breeding of the strain......I could go on and on for pages about S1's, F1's, F2's etc and pheno progression/expression, plant stability and hosts of details on this topic.....Not today. This is not Canna plant genetics 101/102....
Just thought I might remove some more myth from the playing table.
Doc
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GOLDBERG71
Well-Known Member
Myth or not you won't catch me using a herm for anything. And my suggestion remains the same don't use it. I have a favorite saying "if you start with shit it will always be shit."
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with you on that..BUT for one point. If it is a strain that I have run before and it's a clone from a mother that did not herm,,,,,Then the seeds from the enviro caused herming will NOT herm if grown porperly!...I don't have the time or space to run 12+ seeds from an unknown strain that hermed to find the one's that don't!
The strain would have to something VERY special to bother with that...........
Doc
Besides, mushrooms grow in shit and I don't find them shitty at all.......My plants use a lot of bat shit and they sure ain't shit!!!! LOL, just fun'in.....
GOLDBERG71
Well-Known Member
I understand what your saying about a herm and chemicals. I'm not buying it. A hermie does what it does by genetics. When using CSILVER it basically prevents hormones or something (I can't remember) from reaching the flowers. By preventing that reaction within the plant they produce female pollen. That pollen is female pollen. Not hermie pollen. It's been a long time since I read about it. So I can't recall the terms. And I have no use for F1 F 15 or S 115. I've read about it and unless your a super breeder or cataloging genetics for most of us it's irrelevant
GOLDBERG71
Well-Known Member
I'll argue about the shrooms. They grow in shit and SURELY TASTE LIKE SHIT. SO THEY MUST BE SHIT LOLI have to agree with you on that..BUT for one point. If it is a strain that I have run before and it's a clone from a mother that did not herm,,,,,Then the seeds from the enviro caused herming will NOT herm if grown porperly!...I don't have the time or space to run 12+ seeds from an unknown strain that hermed to find the one's that don't!
The strain would have to something VERY special to bother with that...........
Doc
Besides, mushrooms grow in shit and I don't find them shitty at all.......My plants use a lot of bat shit and they sure ain't shit!!!! LOL, just fun'in.....
GOLDBERG71
Well-Known Member
I have the space to run 12+ seeds from a strain that hermied. I JUST WOULDN'T USE THEM. I'd also would have pulled any herm before it had a chance to spread its pollen. And if i created seeds that showed that tendency they would be chucked as soon as a realized it.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
LOL,,,yeah you do need to like them first!
And there's the rub.....This is the not true part......Back to the S1 and how their done and the part about where the hermie came from....(environmental problem)
Known non herming mother = 100% NO passing of any "increased" herming trait.....Genetically improbable.
Doc
Ok maybe more like 98%
EDITED imposs to improb too!
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GOLDBERG71
Well-Known Member
Whats not true a hermie is decided genetically? By selfing you're increasing the odds of recessive genes showing up. So I'd say the error comes from believing one of the parents or in this case the parent did not have a genetic predisposition towards hermie traits. You just never noticed it. Or it took that many generations for you to use a seed that got those recessive traits. Remember you're only using less than 12 seeds. You could easily miss the hermie traits in the previous grows. It comes from somewhere and the genes is the only possibility.
There's nothing in the plant that doesn't come from its DNA
Sativied
Well-Known Member
1. Bisexual infloresence.
2. The staminate flowers will open (like an umbrella) and expose 5 anthers, which shortly after (usually within 24 hrs) will unload their pollen.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Um, ok sure thing.........Time to reread on Mendelian genetics....and selfing......There IS almost no increase in genetic drift by selfing! BUT THIS is MAINLY effected by ENVIRONMENTAL forces on the plant! You end up with an EXACT copy of the "mother" in every way - Clone OR S1 ..... and the environmental factors are what will MAINLY effect any genetic drift in plants....and YET the "mother" plant MUST have the genetic trait recessed from it's lineage! This means to herm it has to have that trait in it's gene's.....I'll bet I can make any strain YOU run herm and without chems! I can self that herming plant and get with 98% probability that the resulting seeds will not herm if grown in a PROPER environment!!
Here, this it taken from Principles Of Genetics by Snustad and Simmons.....
Genetic drift refers to random changes in the genetic composition of a population. It is one of the evolutionary forces that cause biological evolution, the others being selection, mutation, and migration, or gene flow.
Drift occurs because the genetic variants, or alleles, present in a population are a random sample of the alleles that adults in the previous generation would have been predicted to pass on, where predictions are based on expected migration rates, expected mutation rates, and the direct effects of alleles on fitness.
An important way in which different plant populations are not equal is in their reproductive systems. With self-fertilization (selfing), or asexual reproduction, genetic hitchhiking becomes very important. In the extreme cases of 100 percent selfing or 100 percent asexual reproduction, hitch-hiking will determine the fates of most alleles.
Thus, as a new mutation spreads or is eliminated by selection, so too will most or all of the other alleles carried by the individual in which the mutation first arose. This is called a selective sweep, and the result is a significant reduction in genetic variation.
Which alleles will be swept to fixation or elimination cannot be predicted in advance, so the loss of variation reflects a small Ne. Consistent with this expectation, most populations of flowering plants that reproduce partly or entirely by selfing contain significantly less genetic variation than populations of related species that do not self-fertilize.
So then, the actual mutations in plant genetics come mainly from actual plant breeding and NOT from asexual reproduction!
I'll let you know something......Lots and Lots of the seeds you "buy" as what ever they say,,,,,,are actually S1's (Not to mention that all S1's are fem [theoretically])
Some of the most respected breeders sell S1's.....Breeders you most likely haven't heard of yet and if you did.....their strains are priced out of many peoples league..I know several that only sell S1's..The availability of some of these "craft or boutique" breeders strains is rare and waiting for availibilty is the norm....
Several of these breeders are taking a stance on this topic attempting to get people to understand that S1's are "more" stable then any P1xP1 crossing!!! AND I'm not even going to start on F# genetic shifting! That is WHY they sell S1's!
Doc
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GOLDBERG71
Well-Known Member
So are you telling me every time you self a mom and plant those seeds that if you put them ALL together including the mom they would be identical. The exact same shape the exact same smell and the exact same taste? Because they're all grown in the same room in your house you could be assure the environment was equal? I've selfed and can tell you I haven't had those results. It's obvious they are close but I've still found different phenos some I've liked better others I havent liked at all.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Your taking it too far! But that is an exaggerated example of environment effecting growth....in all ways....each plant has the same genetic potential it's up to you to get the plant to reach those potentials....
They are genetically identical! (Not physically) Just like a clone.....
I might take the time to ask, "How are you judging or differentiating these "pheno's" that your finding as having differing "traits"?"
If you want to see some genetic shifting and clear trait separation and expression in phenotypes....Try some high F# seeds like 4 or 5 and above! One would use seeds from these runs to find and improve the specific trait one was attempting to express in further breeding, if one was patient enough to do a breeding program so long and tedious. One would have to have real dedication to building the breed with the exact traits he was intending......It can be a long process to be exact in the goal achievement...
A good example is OG kush.....That was a project to enhance several specific traits.....Some of the cross's along the way have become well respected strains in their own right.....it was not a cross P1xP1 = F1 and done job!
I'm sticking to answering these questions because I hope some will understand better.
NOT to argue with you!
Please don't "feel" that way....
With all politeness I say maybe you could read or explore the topic I have pointed out some more...
The book I quoted from is a good place to start....BTW, I used to breed and still work with some other breeders. I intend to return to some "craft" breeding for my shops as I recently built a new place to do just that (and personal runs)..
Doc
GOLDBERG71
Well-Known Member
I'm judging by growth patterns. By that I mean some grow straight up. Other grow more bushy. Bud size and shape. Side branch growth. Bud density. And the obvious taste and effect. I get what you're saying. All grow from the same selfed seeds. I just think selfing is the same as M/F breeding. Those 2 parents genes aren't changing. But Yao Mings parents can have a million babies and there won't be another Yao. Now I agree that supplying both sets of genes will bring more uniformity but still think the recessed genes that aren't showing in the single parent can and will be expressed in a certain %. I look at those differences as phenos. It sounds like you would over look the difference and blame the environment. And believe me I'm not trying to argue with you. I think it's interesting. I've got better things to do than argue with some dude I don't know. I can easily avoid this. I've read up on selfing and f1s. Not a lot but enough to understand the basics. But no book or philosophy can change what I see. Even though they are genetically identical they don't all express identical.
GOLDBERG71
Well-Known Member
As a matter of fact if you want to take it private so we don't keep hijacking this poor guys thread we can continue it there. I'm always open to being enlightened and or debating.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
@GOLDBERG71
That's cool....PM me if you like!
BTW the last sentence with "expressing differently". That is correct.....generally due to an outside influence and care must be taken when classing for breeding programs....
Lets go back to that OG breeding program and some of the resulting strains if you will...
I've run several and am REALLY fond of one......It begins from beans as a "classic" OG style plant. Short and bush's evenly with a round shape.....As you clone and grow the clones out.....If you treat it in growing in differing ways it will "adapt" or "shift" as you might describe it. Shockingly small environmental changes you would not notice easily (unless your really looking for them) can and do make the plant actually appear as a "genetic shift". A common one for me to see is for it to adhere to a more Sativa type rendition of it's self when growing out. Taller, bud structure is more Sativa like but, not really (I have not had a change in quality per say) but physically appears different then the mother or other clones......This is not a "genetic" shift but an environmental based shift.....
It's very easy to not understand that and say "genetic shift"....see what I mean here...
I continued again for those following this as stopping abruptly and leaving you out in the cold would not have been fair.
So now you have a "closure" of sorts
Doc
That's cool....PM me if you like!
BTW the last sentence with "expressing differently". That is correct.....generally due to an outside influence and care must be taken when classing for breeding programs....
Lets go back to that OG breeding program and some of the resulting strains if you will...
I've run several and am REALLY fond of one......It begins from beans as a "classic" OG style plant. Short and bush's evenly with a round shape.....As you clone and grow the clones out.....If you treat it in growing in differing ways it will "adapt" or "shift" as you might describe it. Shockingly small environmental changes you would not notice easily (unless your really looking for them) can and do make the plant actually appear as a "genetic shift". A common one for me to see is for it to adhere to a more Sativa type rendition of it's self when growing out. Taller, bud structure is more Sativa like but, not really (I have not had a change in quality per say) but physically appears different then the mother or other clones......This is not a "genetic" shift but an environmental based shift.....
It's very easy to not understand that and say "genetic shift"....see what I mean here...
I continued again for those following this as stopping abruptly and leaving you out in the cold would not have been fair.
So now you have a "closure" of sorts
Doc
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GrowinDad
Well-Known Member
I am satisfied, although I need to google bisexual infloresence????
FWIW, and I should have stated.. Herm would have been 100% environmental from heat stress most likely, not a genetic disposition. These plant were clones off of a fine mama. Same thing I have been running for a few cycles in my tent (Dr. Krippler Kripple Shock - happy wiith it).
FWIW, and I should have stated.. Herm would have been 100% environmental from heat stress most likely, not a genetic disposition. These plant were clones off of a fine mama. Same thing I have been running for a few cycles in my tent (Dr. Krippler Kripple Shock - happy wiith it).
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
At any rate DAD.....If you do wish to get some seeds from a clone.....Use a fresh clone from a mother not revegged....
Do the CS chemical method
Here I'll link you to help so I don't have to type so much..
http://www.growweedeasy.com/how-to-make-feminized-marijuana-seeds
Do the CS chemical method
Here I'll link you to help so I don't have to type so much..
http://www.growweedeasy.com/how-to-make-feminized-marijuana-seeds