purplelicious
Well-Known Member
Liquid silica is being made of potassium silicate, it is very high in ph. If you want to use silica a biogenic one like Azomite will have a neutral ph and it is great for microbes.
Silica and cannabis
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purplelicious
Well-Known Member
The reason for this is the si will literally travel to the site to attack mold.
purplelicious
Well-Known Member
Although you make a lot of valid points and true statements, it is just a beneficial element. The fact that liquid silica is made with potassium is the only problem with your evaluation of Si as not important. Biogenic Si is the inoculate carrier for microbial bacteria in soil. It attacks diseases like mold and PM directly, the plant mobilizes Si and sends it to the affected area and it crystallizes it so it can't spread. Biogenic silica on a microscopic level has holes in it like a strainer, these collect things like iron,copper,zinc,magnesium etc. and the microbes feed on theses and create root hormones. Si is very beneficial.
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churchhaze
Well-Known Member
I'm saying that nobody has provided evidence that Si does anything at all other than work as a medium for the roots to grow in (sand). All test results have been inconclusive. That's why wikipedia editors won't let you change the potassium silicate to the wikipidia page... Science > superstition.
The reality is that there is only some anecdotal evidence that silicates even make a difference, while no conclusive studies have been made about silicates.
Every time someone on RIU thinks they have conclusive results, they mention they also fed extra potassium, which throws the whole test in the trash. You can't go adding significant amounts of potassium to your grow while blaming the results on glass ions...
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churchhaze
Well-Known Member
What RIU members seem to forget is that 100 years ago, scientists were trying show that plants don't need the earth's crust to live. It took them years to learn which elements were essential, which were beneficial, and which did absolutely nothing, but they did learn they could grow in air if they really wanted...
And you don't think they ever considered silicon? the most abundant element after oxygen in the earths crust? They just never thought to check? Now the people testing setup deeply flawed experiments, and can't see why the results should be ignored...
I will not add silicon to my nutrient recipes until the howard resh's and hoaglands of the world suggest it.
And you don't think they ever considered silicon? the most abundant element after oxygen in the earths crust? They just never thought to check? Now the people testing setup deeply flawed experiments, and can't see why the results should be ignored...
I will not add silicon to my nutrient recipes until the howard resh's and hoaglands of the world suggest it.
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purplelicious
Well-Known Member
The soil water, or the "soil solution," contains silicon, mainly as silicic acid,concentrations on the order of those of potassium, calcium, and other major plant nutrients, and well in excess of those of phosphate. Silicon is readily absorbed so that terrestrial plants contain it in appreciable concentrations, ranging from a fraction of 1% of the dry matter to several percent, and in some plants to 10% or even higher. In spite of this prominence of silicon as a mineral constituent of plants, it is not counted among the elements defined as "essential," or nutrients, for any terrestrial higher plants. For that reason it is not included in the formulation of any of the commonly used nutrient solutions. The plant physiologist's solution-cultured plants are thus anomalous, containing only what silicon is derived as a contaminant of their environment. Ample evidence is presented that silicon, when readily available to plants, plays a large role in their growth, mineral nutrition, mechanical strength, and resistance to fungal diseases, herbivory, and adverse chemical conditions of the medium. Plants grown in conventional nutrient solutions are thus to an extent experimental artifacts. Omission of silicon from solution cultures may lead to distorted results in experiments on inorganic plant nutrition, growth and development, and responses to environmental stress.
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Gloomy Gus
Member
I know this is anecdotal, but...
Less than 15 days after adding silica powder to my nutrient solution my girls were noticeably thicker and stronger. The leaves began to have a leathery feel to them. Proceeding through the bloom period less support was required even though flower weight was more than usual. I started using silica for the first time when the plants were in week three. In week three I always increase the MKP by 50%. The amount of potassium in the potassium silicate is quite small with respect to the simultaneous increase in MKP. Those following this thread will recall that I also introduced DE hps lighting. I have a separate room with mogul based hps lamps. I introduced silica to that room at the same time. The same results were evident, PLUS, and this is a biggie... the room with the mogul based hps had a few plants with rust. The rust did not spread to the other plants. The plants that had the rust made it to harvest just fine.
Less than 15 days after adding silica powder to my nutrient solution my girls were noticeably thicker and stronger. The leaves began to have a leathery feel to them. Proceeding through the bloom period less support was required even though flower weight was more than usual. I started using silica for the first time when the plants were in week three. In week three I always increase the MKP by 50%. The amount of potassium in the potassium silicate is quite small with respect to the simultaneous increase in MKP. Those following this thread will recall that I also introduced DE hps lighting. I have a separate room with mogul based hps lamps. I introduced silica to that room at the same time. The same results were evident, PLUS, and this is a biggie... the room with the mogul based hps had a few plants with rust. The rust did not spread to the other plants. The plants that had the rust made it to harvest just fine.
purplelicious
Well-Known Member
I believe the reason for how it "messes with the taste" is simple. Potassium is in all liquid silicate formulas, this is great for early veg and early flower, as you are ending flower you cut back potassium and kick up phosphorus. The actual Si has no effect on taste so if you use biogenic Si it has no negative side effects. You literally can not overdose a plant on biogenic Si,a plant will take up as much Si as it needs and leave the rest.
Gloomy Gus
Member
Are you sure the Si in azomite is soluble? Is all azomite the same? Is azomite ok to use in hydro? May I assume azomite will work in soil (outdoor)?
Chester da Horse
Well-Known Member
Please stop
You have been provided with excellent scientific peer reviewed literature via some well written contributions to this thread. These support silica utilisation by plants.
You can lead to the horse to the information, but if it is stubbornly incredulous or scientifically illiterate, that horse shall trod a flat earth.
On a constructive note, can anyone comment on availability of silica from azomite/other volcanic rock dusts in a sterile hydroponic medium? I'm not sure if the absence of soil microbiota (due to hydrogen peroxide use) would limit the uptake...
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
I had a link to scientific field tests using elements labeled as "beneficial" versus essential. Si was mentioned. Can't find it but Dr. Chalker says this about seaweed extracts. It's all about sales.
5) Marketing: “Manufacturers’ claims for the benefits of these products go beyond what is
substantiated by the research.” “The number of products now on the market seems to outnumber the
published papers.”
These researchers’ conclusions say it all – seaweed extracts are aggressively marketed with little regard
for objective, scientific research.
Moments ago just found a couple, here's one from the U. of Utah regarding effects on crops under drought stress conditions. Notice how the corn and rice treated with Si under drought stress look so much better than the control group? (page 56) http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2373&context=etd
5) Marketing: “Manufacturers’ claims for the benefits of these products go beyond what is
substantiated by the research.” “The number of products now on the market seems to outnumber the
published papers.”
These researchers’ conclusions say it all – seaweed extracts are aggressively marketed with little regard
for objective, scientific research.
Moments ago just found a couple, here's one from the U. of Utah regarding effects on crops under drought stress conditions. Notice how the corn and rice treated with Si under drought stress look so much better than the control group? (page 56) http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2373&context=etd
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Has to a be in a soluble salt form that the plant can uptake. Like all organics, if the organics don't contain essential salts or can not eventually be converted into usable soluble salts, aka chemicals, then they are useless.
Why are you so enamored with azomite or volcanic rock dusts? Your statement suggests that either a vendor or forum member is yanking your chain.
UB
tightpockt
Well-Known Member
I dont know...ever since i've been using silica my PM issues and thrip issues have gone away.churchhaze said:
churchhaze
Well-Known Member
I don't see how I'm beating a dead horse. The subject of silica pops up in many threads. What you're really trying to say is that I'm acting like a gadfly. Also, I don't think being skeptical of a non-essential, non-beneficial element in any way makes me like the Roman Catholic Church. What I'm saying about potassium silicate is true regardless of whether silicon does anything or not. You can not supplement such a large amount of potassium, alter the pH, and then go telling everyone how great silica improved their stems...
Gloomy Gus
Member
Has anyone tried doing a foliar application of potassium silicate against established mold, mildew, or fungus?
churchhaze
Well-Known Member
In CHAPTER 3 MATERIALS AND METHODS where they describe how they setup the tests,
Either PlantTuff or AGRIC?
This is actually one of the best variable-controls I've seen in a silicates study, yet how muddy. Why did they use commercial products in their "materials and methods" rather than making a control with calcium silicate vs calcium carbonate? It was clear they had to estimate the release in peat moss based on past experience, and even made a citation to back up that estimates. Still, best study I've seen on silicates yet.. Thanks.
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Observe & Report
Well-Known Member
How about your controls?
Gloomy Gus
Member
Dang. Let's not get so emotional, folks.
One thing for sure, I have started using potassium silicate in two different rooms with slightly different conditions. The plants are noticeably thicker and stronger. For me, that alone is enough to justify the use.
One thing for sure, I have started using potassium silicate in two different rooms with slightly different conditions. The plants are noticeably thicker and stronger. For me, that alone is enough to justify the use.
Observe & Report
Well-Known Member
One thing for sure, I have started waving a dead chicken over my plants in two different rooms with slightly different conditions. The plants are noticeably thicker and stronger. For me, that alone is enough to justify the use.
purplelicious
Well-Known Member
This is the anomaly of Si in hydro. It is definitely in the azomite and no it is not 100% soluble. Chemically, azomite is a hydrated sodium calcium aluminosilicate (HSCAS) containing other minerals and trace elements which the National Research Council recognizes to be essential. HSCAS is listed in the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations (21 CFR 582.2729) as an anti-caking agent that is generally recognized as safe.
In the vast majority of silicates, including silicate minerals, the Si occupies a tetrahedral environment, being surrounded by 4 oxygen centres. In these structures, the chemical bonds to silicon conform to the octet rule. These tetrahedra sometimes occur as isolated SiO44− centres, but most commonly, the tetrahedra are joined together in various ways, such as pairs (Si2O76−) and rings (Si6O1812−). Commonly the silicate anions are chains, double chains, sheets, and three-dimensional frameworks. All these such species have negligible solubility in water at normal conditions.
So it is not soluble, biogenic Si is also non caking and it won't clog drip emitters, I'm not sure about azomite on that. Plants can't overdose on Si, will always just take what it needs. Aluminosilicate is a main ingredient in azomite, you can see it is basically sodium,calcium and silica with minerals and trace elements.