an alternative view of libertarianism

[ViRedd]

Well Joe ... what would be really cool is if you would point out the flaws in the posts you don't agree with so we can get your perspective on things.


Undertheice and Dave's posts fall right in with my belief systems, but alternate viewpoints, especially if well thought out, are always welcome. I mean, its one thing to say you disagree ... its another to say WHY. So ... have at it.
Vi

 

[undertheice]

thanks vi, i try to make my posts literate and it's nice to know they are appreciated.

i try not to take political discussions too seriously, but many of the views i run across seem so narrow that it leaves me troubled as to the current state of liberal thought. it's not that i believe med and his ilk are actually trying to destroy the freedoms that so many seem to take for granted. i'm sure that most of the followers of the left are sincerely concerned about the plight of those less fortunate than themselves and honestly believe that a forced redistribution of wealth is the only way to relieve that suffering. i too once leaned in that direction and committed my share of semi-legal acts to further what seemed to be a noble cause. i look back and am embarrassed; not by my actions, but by my naive belief in the righteousness of the ideology behind them. i have spent far too much time witnessing first hand the intellectual and emotional slavery created by the false benevolence of the welfare state and have come to believe that the freedom to fail or even to die striving for something better is more important to the human spirit than even simple survival.

i'm just smart enough to realize that a great deal of the vitriol i spew on the left has its roots in my disillusionment and sense of betrayal, but we are all betrayed every day. we see betrayal from the left and from the right and unless we remain suspicious of our leaders' motives we leave ourselves open to be even more easily betrayed. i know perfectly well that i won't live long enough to see the next real step forward on the path toward the sort of more perfected society i believe this system makes possible. i doubt my great grandchildren will live in a society where government institutions will be needed for nothing more important than making sure the trash is picked up on time, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make the sacrifices today for a freer tomorrow. i just hope i'm not around to watch us fall into the slavery of that orwellian nightmare that is the socialist's wet dream.

by the way - (raises hand) i so swear.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

It's laughable that a thread promising a 'treatise' on Libertarianism devotes the introductory paragraph to the Republican party. I will address each paragraph one by one.

With the rise of the Bushites, a particularly nasty ideological virus was unleashed on America. The Grover Norquist wing of the Republican party took over, the people who hate government and want to "starve the beast" to the point where it can be "drowned in a bathtub". That beast, of course, is popular government programs they don't like, such as Social Security and Medicare. As the party of the corporations and the rich, the Bush Republicans have come down with a chronic case of Libertarianism.

Grover Norquist was co-author of the Contract With America. His influence wained as the new Congressional leadership turned it's back on the mandate which resulted in that leadership. It was here that I left the party. The 1992 New York Republican Primary was the last time I participated in any party primary. By 1996, I was so disgusted by Republican betrayal that I voted for Ralph Nader in the general election. By the time President Clinton's second term was coming to a close, Republicans had been chastened by voters in the wake of the Impeachment and lost considerable leverage in both Houses of Congress. It was then that Governor G. W. Bush and his advisers (notably Karl Rove) began a close association with Norquist.

What does the Republican party have to do with the Libertarian party? Granted, there are Libertarian-leaning Republicans. There are Libertarian-leaning Democrats, as well.

 

[joepro]

If we could just see one historical example of working libertarianism -- ONE! -- maybe you could prove your point.

.

Who is Gandhi in 1977, indias libertarian populist moment?
do I please you, VI?

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Libertarianism is the idea that government is by its very nature a bad thing, and that people should be socially and economically free to pursue anything they want without government interference. Of course, the Bushites aren't so fond of that social part of libertarianism, but they eat up that laissez-fair capitalism part. Their every initiative is designed to protect and enrich the wealthiest members of society at the expense of the poorest and hardest working.

Libertarianism is a political philosophy which prioritizes individual liberty and minimizes the role of the state. Libertarian is an antonym of authoritarian. Libertarianism calls for strict interpretation of the Constitution as the supreme law of the land. What the fuck do 'Bushites' have to do with the Libertarian Party?

Notable Libertarian Democrats inlcude:
Markos “Kos” Moulitsas, founder of the Daily Kos. The Case for the Libertarian Democrat
Libertarians for Obama Libertarians for Obama
Camille Paglia Camille Paglia
Maurice Robert "Mike" Gravel About Us
Dennis Leary Leary Foundation

 

[ViRedd]

Undertheice ...

Like you, I was once in the socialist camp. I was young and naive. I actually voted for McGovern! ... Ugh! Then, I read Atlas Shrugged and it was all libertarian from that point forward.

I used to think like Med. I honestly believed that the Democrat Party was the best bet for the average Joe and the less fortunate. They are paper thin and so transparent though. Take for example their constant mantra of being for the poor. Then they turn right around and block any chances of the United States becoming energy self sufficient. The people who are suffering the most from $4.50 per gallon gasoline and the higher heating oil and food costs are the very people the Democrats pretend to support ... the poor.

Vi

 

[hom36rown]

I already posted this in the "a challenge" thread, but its probably more suited for this one, so I'll just repost it:

I have a question for all you libs...libertarians thats is......you guys dont believe in any market regulation at all, or is some ok? What about regulations on outsourcing so were not supporting communism? Is the minimum wage a bad thing? Wouldnt the middle class disappear without market regulation? Whats to stop monopolies? It seems to me you guys dont trust the governments, why do you trust the corporationions...do you think they would act ethically if there were no regulations....arent regulations just to keep the corporations from exploiting the working class...whats wrong with that....thanks in advance for your guys answers
__________________

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Now, I love science fiction as much as the next guy (and believe me, I comprehend Heinlein; I'm just able to separate fiction from reality), but it is not a good basis for a religion or economic system. If we could just see one historical example of working libertarianism -- ONE! -- maybe you could prove your point.

Successful Libertarian country? How about the REPUBLIC OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (1776-1912)? Democracy has existed in America since the days of the French Revolution. Fortunately, the Republic was strong enough and this form of mob rule was relegated to the shadows at the federal level. The War Between the States ended the concept of Federalism with General Lee's surrender at Appomattox Courthouse, thus striking a fatal blow to the Constitutional Republic. President Lincoln appropriated powers no previous President had wielded. The great emancipator used his war powers to dictate, by proclamation, a blockade; to suspend the writ of habeas corpus; to spend money without congressional authorization; and to imprison 18,000 suspected Confederate sympathizers without trial. After Reconstruction, a progressive era began which sowed the seeds for direct democracy with political groups such as the People's Party. The concept of Inititive and Referendum was advocated. But it was not until 1912, under the leadership of President Woodrow Wilson, that democracy was advocated as a viable system of federal government in the United States. Wilson viewed the United States Constitution as outmoded and favored a parliamentary system for the United States. Many Constitutional safeguards fell along the wayside thanks to Woodrow Wilson. Frankly, I am amazed the Electoral College survived this democratic onslaught. "Democracy is the road to socialism." Karl Marx.

Libertarianism is neither a religion nor an economic model. It is a POLITICAL philosophy which accommodates a wide variety of the components required in a viable society. One could say that the Libertarian philosophy accommodates complete religious freedom as well as a vibrant economic climate. It is no more of a religion than Democrat-ism or Republican-ism. Same thing goes for economic systems.

On Heinlein: All literature, including science fiction; organizes, distills and conveys ideas to the reader. Literature helps us interpret reality. You most obviously do NOT comprehend Heinlein. Watching Starship Troopers on videotape does not imply comprehension of Heinlein. Maybe you should re-read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, assuming you've read it previously. Try reading out loud to yourself. Perhaps hearing it as you read will help.

Here's a fantasy for you: Social Security. A fucking ponzi scheme which will collapse under its own weight in a matter of years only to be replaced by yet another series of bloated and inefficient entitlement programs.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

I already posted this in the "a challenge" thread, but its probably more suited for this one, so I'll just repost it:

I have a question for all you libs...libertarians thats is......you guys dont believe in any market regulation at all, or is some ok? What about regulations on outsourcing so were not supporting communism? Is the minimum wage a bad thing? Wouldnt the middle class disappear without market regulation? Whats to stop monopolies? It seems to me you guys dont trust the governments, why do you trust the corporationions...do you think they would act ethically if there were no regulations....arent regulations just to keep the corporations from exploiting the working class...whats wrong with that....thanks in advance for your guys answers
__________________

Libertarian Party | LP.org | The Party of Principle

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Med is unable to distinguish between science fiction and fantasy. Science fiction is a form of fiction that draws imaginatively on scientific knowledge and speculation in its plot, setting, theme, etc. Examples include works by Isaac Asimov, Robert A. Heinlein, and Philip K. Dick.

Fantasy is fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements. In other words, magic. Fantasy is Lewis Carroll, Stephen King, and J. K. Rowling.

There is overlap between the two genres. Star Wars comes to mind. However, Heinlein never wrote fantasy. If Libertarianism is science fiction, then Social Democtrat-ism is pure fantasy.

 

[VTXDave]

Chill out dave. I don't like libertarians and you don't like me. That was made obvious in your rants, so fuck you too, oh and your high and mighty attitude.

I don't believe I ever said I don't like you Med and I don't believe I've ever told you "Fuck you"...Why do you insist upon telling me to fuck off in a consistent manner? I've attacked your author if you've read my posts; not you.

 

[VTXDave]

Some may exhibit kind giving ways, but that is always from their excesses, not their survival money. A poor man that gives a nickle is worth more in the eyes of the lord than a millionair that gives thousands.

Some of those children I have cared for, I did so for over 4 years. This was back when my gross yearly income was 40k/year...gross. I was raising an entire household on that. I drove a 1979 beat up Jeep Wagoneer because that was all I could afford...Please tell me how you think I'm some sort of elitist with "excesses" when I scratched my way up from poverty to earn a good living and give back to others. I'd be willing to bet your author had a more privileged upbringing than I.

 

[VTXDave]

And another thing Med. I gave those children something money can't buy; I gave them a "family". I showed these children what it means to sit at the table together for meals and discuss current events of their day. I gave them an idea of what a normal family is like. I simply didn't shell out cash and have someone else care for them, I took them in, gave them a bed and a place in the family. You seemed to have missed that point. When their "liberal" parents felt they were too much to handle, I became their father. I took them to their court appointments, their piss tests, there probation appointments. Money can't buy that shit. That's typical liberal ideology; let's get a program started and have the government do the work and we can tax the citizenry for it. My 40K didn't go far (I lived in South Lake Tahoe, California...high cost of living), but my kids ate well and were loved.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

And another thing Med. I gave those children something money can't buy; I gave them a "family". I showed these children what it means to sit at the table together for meals and discuss current events of their day. I gave them an idea of what a normal family is like. I simply didn't shell out cash and have someone else care for them, I took them in, gave them a bed and a place in the family. You seemed to have missed that point. When their "liberal" parents felt they were too much to handle, I became their father. I took them to their court appointments, their piss tests, there probation appointments. Money can't buy that shit. That's typical liberal ideology; let's get a program started and have the government do the work and we can tax the citizenry for it. My 40K didn't go far (I lived in South Lake Tahoe, California...high cost of living), but my kids ate well and were loved.

Typical. Another selfish and greedy Libertarian. We should all hang our heads in shame.

 

[VTXDave]

Here's where the truth comes out. If you can't see this, there is no hope for you.


Your closing line sums it all up: "I want to be a human being who associates with those who wish to associate with me." Well, you don't get that luxury -- nobody does. You're a part of a society. That society includes lots of people you don't want to associate with, but must -- the illiterate single mom, the HIV-positive junkie, the man working two McJobs to feed his family, the homeless guy you ignore on your way to the office, the pregnant teenage girl, the illegal aliens you employ to keep labor costs down -- you are not an island, Mr. Libertarian, and you need us and government far more than we need you.
BTW. I do not wish to associate with you. Your holier that thou attitude exudes elitism. Anyone that states everyone has an equal chance in this society is fucking crazy. You may be one of the lucky ones that worked his ass off, got an education and got somewhere. For every one like you, there are thousands that did the same and are nowhere. I've witnessed hundreds of hard working individuals that always had to struggle to keep their head above water, and some of those have sunk or are sinking at present. So just for your information, I was one of the above. No-one ever gave me a goddamn cent, no trust fund, no inheritance, no lottery wins, just hard ass work and bills to pay. So go on with your braggadocio, you aren't fooling me, you got fucking lucky.

You and I are gonna dance tomorrow Med. But right now, I'm a little wiped after putting my grandma in the ground today. Put your best shoes on because I expect a stellar performance.

Or if you don't like to dance, I'd accept a cage match between you and I. You live in Vegas, set it up. I'll ride down.

 

[Parker]

I've witnessed hundreds of hard working individuals that always had to struggle to keep their head above water, and some of those have sunk or are sinking at present. So just for your information, I was one of the above. No-one ever gave me a goddamn cent, no trust fund, no inheritance, no lottery wins, just hard ass work and bills to pay. So go on with your braggadocio, you aren't fooling me, you got fucking lucky.

You should be mad. This is why I do not keep backing the very same people who put you, as well as others, in the same spot.

 

[medicineman]

You and I are gonna dance tomorrow Med. But right now, I'm a little wiped after putting my grandma in the ground today. Put your best shoes on because I expect a stellar performance.

Or if you don't like to dance, I'd accept a cage match between you and I. You live in Vegas, set it up. I'll ride down.

Well first, sorry about your grandma, those are hard to let go of. Now about the dance, I was never very good at dancing, but I'll look at your posts. 3rd I'm a little too old for a cage match, but wish we could have gotten together in my prime, I once sent a 6,3 220lb man 6ft up in the air and backwards to land on his ass out cold. That may be the result of running that 8lb sledge or never being beat in arm wrestling in a bar untill I passed 45, and the guy that beat me was 23 and 215 lbs of nothing but muscle. Yes dave I would have welcomed a cage match back then, but sadly, in my present state, you'd probably dust me pretty quick. Oh, and I never lost a fight except one time when a 300lb latin type blindsided me as I was bending over to get a pack of smokes out of the machine. who knows, it may have been a good fight back in the day. I take it you're the biker type,(Ride down) Well from your posts, I'd have to assume you were one of the better ones. Your charitable ways are very good and I applaud you, but I don't agree with your political views and that's my story.

 

[medicineman]

And another thing Med. I gave those children something money can't buy; I gave them a "family". I showed these children what it means to sit at the table together for meals and discuss current events of their day. I gave them an idea of what a normal family is like. I simply didn't shell out cash and have someone else care for them, I took them in, gave them a bed and a place in the family. You seemed to have missed that point. When their "liberal" parents felt they were too much to handle, I became their father. I took them to their court appointments, their piss tests, there probation appointments. Money can't buy that shit. That's typical liberal ideology; let's get a program started and have the government do the work and we can tax the citizenry for it. My 40K didn't go far (I lived in South Lake Tahoe, California...high cost of living), but my kids ate well and were loved.

No Dave I didn't miss those points and I am remiss in not applauding you, that was some right stuff to do. My wife is the charitable one in my family, she volunteers and I go along and do whatever it takes. In the end it is a very worthwhile endeavor as you always feel better about yourself when you give. My contentions are that we should all be sharing the wealth that abounds on the planet. There are people that live on less than 2.00 a day, while CEOs make multi million dollar salaries plus multi million dollar bonuses for firing workers and growing the bottom line, (streamlining). This is criminal in my view.

 

[medicineman]

I don't believe I ever said I don't like you Med and I don't believe I've ever told you "Fuck you"...Why do you insist upon telling me to fuck off in a consistent manner? I've attacked your author if you've read my posts; not you.

No, you refraind from using the words (Fuck You) but the intent was the same.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

No, you refraind from using the words (Fuck You) but the intent was the same.

There are losers in every economic system. Democrats do not wish to change this. Democrats simply wish to dictate who the losers are in the name of 'fairness' and 'social justice.' Libertarians are staunchly opposed to this plunder of the hardworking/successful. And Med has the unbelievable gall to label Libertarians as greedy. In truth, Med makes little distinction between Republicans and Libertarians. Claiming that permissiveness is all that separates the parties.

By dismissing Libertarians as greedy you put yourself above us in your mind, thereby permitting yourself to dismiss the party out of hand. That is your approach to everyone you disagree with. Unsubstantiated slurs are all you have in your arsenal. Can't you see why open-minded people don't take your rationale seriously?

Please see my entire response here: https://www.rollitup.org/politics/71725-go-19.html