True HP Aero For 2011

[DIYer]

So are TB's $160 AA nozzles

5-80 microns is the ideal range with the bulk of the droplets being between 30 and 80. No nozzle puts out a single droplet size

your splitting hairs, not growing um, lol

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Holy Crap that was a lot of reading! I finally got done catching up on the thread (read all 2,065 posts). I didn't want to join in before reading up on everything so I knew exactly what was going on with everybody.

I'm gonna be starting to build my setup here real soon, it's all drawn out on paper and I just need to finish gathering up a few of the components. For the most part, I've decided on all of my components and have received most of them or already had them readily available to me. I can't tell you how nice it is to run a hardware store

Really, the only parts I'm still largely debating over are the nozzles. I could very well order nozzles from work, but they are the Arizona Mist nozzles and I'm not sure what diameter orifice they have, nor the flow rates. Not to mention I have no idea what size the water droplets would be.

I'm kinda tempted to get a few nozzles from HERE. Someone on here posted to that site, but from what I remember nobody actually went through with purchasing them. They have a nice orifice to flowrate to psi chart on there. I can't attest to it's accuracy, and I sure wouldn't take their word for it, but at least that gives you some ballpark figures. They say that they can achieve 50 microns (although who knows how true that is). Even though I will have solenoids, the anti-drip feature does seem interesting to try in the interest of getting a little more control. I'd haveta get them and take some measurements to see how the anti-drip affects flow rate/droplet size. However, I'm only getting three nozzles (three nozzles in my chamber) and maybe a backup, so I should be able to get them and just experiment. Best part is, I can remove the anti-drip feature if need be since it unthreads.

I'm very on the fence with this one. I know Atomizer and others have found proven nozzles, but listening to TB's and other's problems with quality and such, I'd rather avoid problems if I can. The largest drawback that's making me unsure is the fact that if I use proven nozzles, that's one less variable I'd have to iron out myself. It's not like I can't go back and change out/tweak/try out other nozzles once I get the system working with proven ones.

Decisions, decisions!

Welcome Doctor, it's refreshing to hear you have enough enthusiasm in this to have done the homework. There's plenty more if you follow the threads this one attempts to summarize . I've read it all and still have plenty more to learn, so it's non-stop, but sooner or later you just have to dig in, and get your hands dirty, be prepared for a few surprises despite all your dilligence and have fun most of all.

So I see you are planning on running 3 nozzles, what is your chamber going to be made of/volume? To be honest you need to decide on the nozzles somewhat as an extension of the chamber, because the air volume will dictate the maximum flowrate of the nozzles you need (everything is interconnected and only your mist timings can be a buffer to smooth it all out). I still advocate the biocontrols more than any other brand. I definitely had a few duds, but tree farmer told that was to be expected. They also were happy to replace my bad ones, and it's only my own laziness keeping that from happening at this point. If you have seen the proof tree farmer shows in his pics, you should be quick to follow his lead, as far as you should be concerned his and Atomizer's advice will always supercede mine. I can only post my logic and experiences, and have my own road to go down -as we all do. Just keep in mind the basic principles, and don't veer too far off track or try to re-invent the wheel before you have tried to follow the path that has been proven to work first. Look forward to hearing from you and your build.

 

[Atomizer]

What about thee micron range? It's only rated at 31-40, or am I reading this wrong?

Thats the filter

 

[Atomizer]

So are TB's $160 AA nozzles



your splitting hairs, not growing um, lol

If you run the Hago at 550psi, the mist will be similar to the mist in the pic, except the Hago wont project it as far. It uses 20psi air and 7psi water pressure.

 

[tree farmer]

do you think a 4x4 trey for the top in a pvc frame or wood strapping with 4 ft legs and then wrap the inside of the frame with reflective material and have the bottom be another 4x4 trey for drainage would do well? I have a 4x8 tent that id eventually like to turn the whole thing into hp aero but using half of it now to figure out the best chamber size. the 5 gallon buckets stacked worked but not good enough, a trash can did ok but again not good enough. any reccomendations? thanks

i guess it could work but i dont really know what type of rig you got going now. it takes a bit of work to get a 4x4 chamber filled correctly with hydraulic nozzles from my experience. it can be done but large chambers can present some problems. id only personally try large chambers with AA nozzles but i have no idea how mant plants you want to run and how much light your using and if your doing DTW. i personally like solid containers because i like to control the chamber temps, and drainage, and root growth patterns and im not sure how all these factors can be controlled properly in a non solid container. i guess it could be made to work but i have never tried it so cant offer much useful advise.

 

[dickkhead]

i guess it could work but i dont really know what type of rig you got going now. it takes a bit of work to get a 4x4 chamber filled correctly with hydraulic nozzles from my experience. it can be done but large chambers can present some problems. id only personally try large chambers with AA nozzles but i have no idea how mant plants you want to run and how much light your using and if your doing DTW. i personally like solid containers because i like to control the chamber temps, and drainage, and root growth patterns and im not sure how all these factors can be controlled properly in a non solid container. i guess it could be made to work but i have never tried it so cant offer much useful advise.

I'm running solar storm led and plan on doing 2-4 plants in that area. U might be right about the sealed container. It is dtw btw. Thanks for your input tf

 

[Mike Young]

i saw the roots that you finished with mike and saw how they mushroomed out at the top and choked out the bottom portion. you can train your roots to avoid this by extending the JG tubing and placing the nozzles real low to begin with so the roots from the get go drop down to the bottom of the container. once they have spread out along the bottom you then can shorten the tubing and lift the nozzles up higher and face them slightly away from the netpot and the roots will start to crawl the walls and fill the whole space of the container rather than bunch up along the net pot. i know this has worked with me but im not certain it will work exactly the same for you since your nozzles are different than an impingment nozzle that throws mist everywhere but even with your nozzles the roots will definatly follow the misters down if they are kept low from the getgo. might have to face the nozzles upward slightly if the nozzles arent filling the whole space with mist evenly while they are down low. also im not quit sure how it would work with those bags that colapse but if your going to a solid one piece container then no problem.

Thanks! My new temporary chamber is 17 cu ft, one plant, plenty of room for root growth, and plenty of room to keep the nozzles from coming in contact with the roots. I will be playing with nozzle placement as the fuzzies start to develop. Any insight on how long it will take roots to transform, and have you ever taken a well established plant from a DWC (or other) & put it in one of your rigs? I imagine the roots are going through somewhat of a shock right now, and that I shouldn't expect to see them fuzz up immediately. I'm treating em like babies though & overwatering by about double the on time I was used to. I can't wait to see how big I can get this thing.

 

[Mike Young]

I'm running solar storm led and plan on doing 2-4 plants in that area. U might be right about the sealed container. It is dtw btw. Thanks for your input tf

You want to turn the entire footprint of your rig into an aero chamber? Are you planning on droppin in Mission Impossible style on a rope to tend to your plants? I'm just clownin. I would divide the 8' length into 2 chambers 3' x 4' leaving you a 2' isle down the middle. As for the building of the chambers themselves... I could probably think up a dozen different ways to do it, and that's a modest number. Building a chamber is easy. Holding up a plant, aiming nozzles & drainage are the real things to think about.

 

[tree farmer]

Thanks! My new temporary chamber is 17 cu ft, one plant, plenty of room for root growth, and plenty of room to keep the nozzles from coming in contact with the roots. I will be playing with nozzle placement as the fuzzies start to develop. Any insight on how long it will take roots to transform, and have you ever taken a well established plant from a DWC (or other) & put it in one of your rigs? I imagine the roots are going through somewhat of a shock right now, and that I shouldn't expect to see them fuzz up immediately. I'm treating em like babies though & overwatering by about double the on time I was used to. I can't wait to see how big I can get this thing.

i usually go from a lp cloner to an HP rig and it usually takes a week for them to start transitioning over to the finer mist. the roots dont ever really become HP roots they just grow new HP roots off the DWC or lp aero roots and engulf the whole mass. i posted a pic in aerojunkies AA thresd of a really sad looking dwc plant that i put in the AA test rig and it only took about 2 weeks to overtake the dwc roots completly. your right in keeping them a little wet through the transition otherwise those nice dwc roots will brown up before then become engulfed. you might also expieence some things that look like nute def. issues as you lower the nute strength to the HP levels. the plant will usually just grow out of it as it gets going. sometimes it takes a couple weeks though and sometimes a couple days. have never really figured it out just know it happens. this is why having a HP cloner would be ideal.(something on the long list of things to do)

 

[Trichy Bastard]

i usually go from a lp cloner to an HP rig and it usually takes a week for them to start transitioning over to the finer mist. the roots dont ever really become HP roots they just grow new HP roots off the DWC or lp aero roots and engulf the whole mass. i posted a pic in aerojunkies AA thresd of a really sad looking dwc plant that i put in the AA test rig and it only took about 2 weeks to overtake the dwc roots completly. your right in keeping them a little wet through the transition otherwise those nice dwc roots will brown up before then become engulfed. you might also expieence some things that look like nute def. issues as you lower the nute strength to the HP levels. the plant will usually just grow out of it as it gets going. sometimes it takes a couple weeks though and sometimes a couple days. have never really figured it out just know it happens. this is why having a HP cloner would be ideal.(something on the long list of things to do)

Well, I am thinking this aerolife rig is going to be a perfect hp cloner if nothing else... I'm about to try to start proving it to myself in the next few days...

 

[DoktorD1313]

Welcome Doctor, it's refreshing to hear you have enough enthusiasm in this to have done the homework. There's plenty more if you follow the threads this one attempts to summarize . I've read it all and still have plenty more to learn, so it's non-stop, but sooner or later you just have to dig in, and get your hands dirty, be prepared for a few surprises despite all your dilligence and have fun most of all.

So I see you are planning on running 3 nozzles, what is your chamber going to be made of/volume? To be honest you need to decide on the nozzles somewhat as an extension of the chamber, because the air volume will dictate the maximum flowrate of the nozzles you need (everything is interconnected and only your mist timings can be a buffer to smooth it all out). I still advocate the biocontrols more than any other brand. I definitely had a few duds, but tree farmer told that was to be expected. They also were happy to replace my bad ones, and it's only my own laziness keeping that from happening at this point. If you have seen the proof tree farmer shows in his pics, you should be quick to follow his lead, as far as you should be concerned his and Atomizer's advice will always supercede mine. I can only post my logic and experiences, and have my own road to go down -as we all do. Just keep in mind the basic principles, and don't veer too far off track or try to re-invent the wheel before you have tried to follow the path that has been proven to work first. Look forward to hearing from you and your build.

Whew, got a little busy there for a few days, but back on track.

I plan on using a rubbermaid brute 32 gallon garbage can.. That'll give me ~121 liters of chamber volume, so I think I can hit the 1ml/100 liters mark using 3 nozzles spaced evenly on the side walls about 6" below the lip of the can. I only plan on growing 1 plant at a time (at least at first) so that should be plenty of growing room.

I really do know what you mean about reinventing the wheel. Thanks for the friendly reminder! There's so much proven information/methods/components (as displayed by tree grower/atomizer and the rest) to spend time redesigning and experimenting things they've pretty much perfected. I think I am just going to go with proven nozzles (probably biocontrols), especially since hearing multiple people voice that the nozzles I was contemplating over are so prone to clogging.

So if I use the three biocontrols, and my math is correct... Theoretically I'd need a .5 second burst to deliver the 1 ml/100 L.

One thing I do want to ask about, does anybody know what size internal orifice their solenoids have? I found a relatively inexpensive valve with fast response time made with a nylon body and stainless internals. However, the internal orifice is only 2.5mm in diameter and I'm afraid that will be too small to get a proper flow rate? Maybe I'm just paranoid, but even at 100psi I'm wondering if that's too much constriction in the flow. My gut feeling tells me yes. (Although with 1/4" FPT inlet/outlets, you'd think it would have some decent flow?)

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Whew, got a little busy there for a few days, but back on track.

I plan on using a rubbermaid brute 32 gallon garbage can.. That'll give me ~121 liters of chamber volume, so I think I can hit the 1ml/100 liters mark using 3 nozzles spaced evenly on the side walls about 6" below the lip of the can. I only plan on growing 1 plant at a time (at least at first) so that should be plenty of growing room.

I really do know what you mean about reinventing the wheel. Thanks for the friendly reminder! There's so much proven information/methods/components (as displayed by tree grower/atomizer and the rest) to spend time redesigning and experimenting things they've pretty much perfected. I think I am just going to go with proven nozzles (probably biocontrols), especially since hearing multiple people voice that the nozzles I was contemplating over are so prone to clogging.

So if I use the three biocontrols, and my math is correct... Theoretically I'd need a .5 second burst to deliver the 1 ml/100 L.

One thing I do want to ask about, does anybody know what size internal orifice their solenoids have? I found a relatively inexpensive valve with fast response time made with a nylon body and stainless internals. However, the internal orifice is only 2.5mm in diameter and I'm afraid that will be too small to get a proper flow rate? Maybe I'm just paranoid, but even at 100psi I'm wondering if that's too much constriction in the flow. My gut feeling tells me yes. (Although with 1/4" FPT inlet/outlets, you'd think it would have some decent flow?)

Sounds all good and I think your logic is sound. I tend to think as long as the orifice on the nozzle is smaller (and you only have one nozzle per solenoid) that you'll be fine. I can't remember the orifice size off the top of my head, but it's a needle hole and definitely smaller than your solenoids pass through. They have 2 types, make sure you get the "ultra low flow" rated one.

P.S. if it's possible to aim all of your nozzles slighlty at the same sideways angle, you might get to take advantage of getting a "swirling vortex effect".

 

[Mike Young]

I'm no atomizer, but if your nozzles is .016" and your solenoid 2.5mm you should be able to run 6 nozzles before you start to see an issue.

 

[Atomizer]

You could work it out using the Kv value from the solenoid spec sheet. Suffice to say, you can pass a fair amount of water through a 2.5mm hole pretty rapidly when its under pressure.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

You could work it out using the Kv value from the solenoid spec sheet. Suffice to say, you can pass a fair amount of water through a 2.5mm hole pretty rapidly when its under pressure.

<------^ ^ ^ He's an Atomizer~~!

And quite right sir- especially after a few beers! lol...

 

[DoktorD1313]

Sounds all good and I think your logic is sound. I tend to think as long as the orifice on the nozzle is smaller (and you only have one nozzle per solenoid) that you'll be fine. I can't remember the orifice size off the top of my head, but it's a needle hole and definitely smaller than your solenoids pass through. They have 2 types, make sure you get the "ultra low flow" rated one.

P.S. if it's possible to aim all of your nozzles slighlty at the same sideways angle, you might get to take advantage of getting a "swirling vortex effect".

Thanks for the tip on the nozzles, in my tired mind I was actually calculating using the larger 0.08 oz/sec nozzles, so using the lower flow nozzles should give me even more control over the misting cycle.

I'm no atomizer, but if your nozzles is .016" and your solenoid 2.5mm you should be able to run 6 nozzles before you start to see an issue.

You could work it out using the Kv value from the solenoid spec sheet. Suffice to say, you can pass a fair amount of water through a 2.5mm hole pretty rapidly when its under pressure.

Trichy, Mike, and Atomizer, thanks for the confirmation on the solenoid specs. That puts my mind to ease, I'm going to go ahead and and place my order then. I think the only part I have left to get is the pump! Just for the sake of noise concerns, I'm going to go with the Aquatec 8800. Since the aquatec is a booster pump, will a small primary pump (such as a small pond pump) be necessary for it to operate correctly? I'm not too familiar with booster pumps so I wasn't sure if a small gravity feed from my reservoir would suffice or if that a primary pump would be necessary. If my memory serves me correctly, nobody using an aquatec 8800 ever mentioned having to use a primary pump in conjunction with it.

 

[hammer21]

Hello Dok no you do not need a pump for a 8800 the 8800 will work fine by itself.
the nozzles that you where looking at will work just need a suction strainer before the pump stainless and try 0.12 to 0.15 orfice sizes and would order some plastic nozzles to try and compare. Just remember keep your nutes clean and sealed from dust and debris. One more thing what ever nutes you use do some tests mix some nutes and put them in a blender and see what happens also take your nutes put in a glass jar over night and see what happens.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Thanks for the tip on the nozzles, in my tired mind I was actually calculating using the larger 0.08 oz/sec nozzles, so using the lower flow nozzles should give me even more control over the misting cycle.





Trichy, Mike, and Atomizer, thanks for the confirmation on the solenoid specs. That puts my mind to ease, I'm going to go ahead and and place my order then. I think the only part I have left to get is the pump! Just for the sake of noise concerns, I'm going to go with the Aquatec 8800. Since the aquatec is a booster pump, will a small primary pump (such as a small pond pump) be necessary for it to operate correctly? I'm not too familiar with booster pumps so I wasn't sure if a small gravity feed from my reservoir would suffice or if that a primary pump would be necessary. If my memory serves me correctly, nobody using an aquatec 8800 ever mentioned having to use a primary pump in conjunction with it.

The 8800 is probably the cream of the crop, nice choice! It's just called a booster pump because it's main purpose is to boost the pressure for r.o. systems or r.v. water pressure. All these pumps are similar and can handle around an 8 foot draw if I remember correctly. They push alot more than they can pull, but a few feet of gravity is no issue.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Hello Dok no you do not need a pump for a 8800 the 8800 will work fine by itself.
the nozzles that you where looking at will work just need a suction strainer before the pump stainless and try 0.12 to 0.15 orfice sizes and would order some plastic nozzles to try and compare. Just remember keep your nutes clean and sealed from dust and debris. One more thing what ever nutes you use do some tests mix some nutes and put them in a blender and see what happens also take your nutes put in a glass jar over night and see what happens.

Even if you can keep the nozzles from clogging, who knows if they have the throw and mist to really grow plants. The bios are well proven and I still like his decision and logic to follow tree farmers suggestions. Compare the mist to what? He doesn't have any experience growing plants to know what's to look for. I will say one thing- those nozzles you sent me aren't anything like the bios, and I doubt they'd do much but humidify the chamber after understanding things a little better. I bet if you would have tried some proven nozzles you would be happy too. I also think Mike should try them again. The thing is, we imagine this fine floating mist as the right mist, but it's actually a little different that grows the plants better. The red cloudtops are a little too fine and light too, so it really leaves the bios as the best choice in my book after running a full circle. Just buy more than you need, they do have quite a few duds. Luckily they are happy to trade them out for free. Based on my experience almost half were bad (I think I just got unlucky), but even with the price, it's worth having success after all the rest we put into it.

 

[DoktorD1313]

Hello Dok no you do not need a pump for a 8800 the 8800 will work fine by itself.
the nozzles that you where looking at will work just need a suction strainer before the pump stainless and try 0.12 to 0.15 orfice sizes and would order some plastic nozzles to try and compare. Just remember keep your nutes clean and sealed from dust and debris. One more thing what ever nutes you use do some tests mix some nutes and put them in a blender and see what happens also take your nutes put in a glass jar over night and see what happens.

I'm going to pass on the stainless nozzles I was looking at before, I'm just going to opt for the proven biocontrol nozzles and order a few extra just in case I get a few that are broken/defective.

As far as nutes go, I'm going to use the GH flora series since they sound like a pretty well tested line and have gotten some decent praise both on this thread and other threads. Hopefully I don't have any problems with them, but I can't see that I will.