Cnbc "Ron-Paul-a-Holics"

sync0s

Well-Known Member
If you want to talk Ron Paul, lets do it.

Explain to me how we'd be better off with the corporate monopolies Ron Paul's policies would allow. Tell how we'd be better off with the 50% unemployment that would have come along with letting all the banks fail. Tell me why we are better off not regulating the economy. Is the "free market" a sentient being that will look out for our best interests if we stop regulating it or are we better off setting up rules to insure the market works for us rather than all of us becoming slaves to the robber barons.

hint = "that's just mainstream media propaganda" is not the correct answer to those questions.
Interesting how you say he promotes monopolies, but our current government does not. Here's some examples how your wrong.

How about Sugar quotas? http://www.udel.edu/johnmack/frec424/sugar_quotas.htm http://www.fff.org/freedom/0498d.asp
Media monopoly http://hubpages.com/hub/thenewmediamonopoly
How about Enron and their control of energy in California http://www.mediastudy.com/articles/enron.html
Maybe the Marlboro Monopoly Act of 09 might help http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2009/06/marlboro-monopoly-act-2009
Seeing the website, maybe the prohibition of marijuana and the lumber industry might add to this list, up to you
City governments contracting garbage disposal companies http://www.planostar.com/articles/2011/05/27/flower_mound_leader/news/283.txt
Utility monopolies http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/2011/02/27/the-failure-of-u-s-politicians-to-open-electricity-and-other-energy-markets/

Now, Ron Pauls monopoly philosophies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C4gRRk2i-M (Listen to Professor Dominick T. Armentano's explanation of railroad attempts to fix rates and failing until they could convince the government to fix the rates for them)
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul380.html Fed monopoly (didn't list above) With this I'm not going to continue to list as I've spent some time searching the list above and now I'm temporarily burnt out lol. However, I would like to make the point that by Ron Paul's introduction of the Free Competition in Currency Act of 2009 is hard proof that he is anti monopoly
 

budlover13

King Tut
can you give us a rough range? i will go first.

i was a guinea pig for my wife, who is becoming a psychologist, when she started administering WAIS-IV tests (ie, IQ tests).

my score came back around 140, which is mensa smart. i told her she biased the test since she is my wife, so i would put it at closer to 125 (still damn good).

i showed mine, you show yours now.
Well, while i don't put much weight behind iq tests as i believe they are somewhat inaccurate, but both results were within 6(?) * it was quite a few lbs ago but i will see if i can obtain the records. They are mine after-all* points of each other. First was 155 and second was 161. THAT'S why i don't really believe in them as an accurate measure of intelligence. Because that puts me up in a rather elite group and i don't see that. i see common sense and logic, but near genius? No.
 

sync0s

Well-Known Member
Dan Kone, you just picked up this argument from another thread and dragged it over here. I'd like a response to this post then https://www.rollitup.org/politics/434114-truth-about-ron-paul-13.html#post5777261

I'm just curious why you completely disappeared on that thread and picked up the argument over here......

Oh yeah... arguing over IQ tests is only proving how stupid you are. You guys are avoiding the debate topics and exuberating your intelligence. It's a very alpha male style tactic, kind of like "I'm stronger than you so I'm telling you your wrong so shut up"
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
First was 155 and second was 161. THAT'S why i don't really believe in them as an accurate measure of intelligence. Because that puts me up in a rather elite group and i don't see that. i see common sense and logic, but near genius? No.
don't confuse intelligence with common sense, genius, or logic.

i personally make many bad decisions, almost self-destructive. but that is not to say that i don't rank high on an IQ test.

IQ tests measure things like spatial reasoning, memory, and other things. not all of these correlate to inventing the atomic bomb.

that you took two tests which came in so close is a good indicator that you are very intelligent in many ways. your measured responses and posts reinforce this suspicion.

don't discount yourself. you are likely among the 99.99th percentile in overall intelligence.

Oh yeah... arguing over IQ tests is only proving how stupid you are. You guys are avoiding the debate topics and exuberating your intelligence. It's a very alpha male style tactic, kind of like "I'm stronger than you so I'm telling you your wrong so shut up"
perhaps, but IQ tests have a valid purpose and are reliable predictors of one's mental capacities.

you can take one for free from a student learning to administer the test. it provides excellent insight into areas where you may excel and areas where you may not excel. there are many different types of intelligence, it is not just a Q&A exam.

if you can't find a free one, it only costs $25 - $40 to take one, and they can provide great insight as to where you excel and where you fall short with respect to various components of what we consider "intelligence".
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
Convince me please.
ok, but just a warning, I can not present a meaningful argument in sound bite/talking point form. I must go into a certain amount of detail to outline the logical flaws. I'll try and keep it as short as possible.

My main beef with Ron Paul is that he's an extremist when it comes to economic issues. He is a free market purist. There has yet to be an industrialized country in the history of the word that has had an economic system to the right of where Ron Paul would like to take us.

Corporations are a business tool. Like a saw's purpose is to cut wood, the purpose of a corporation is to make a profit. The purpose of a corporation is not to look out for the best interests of the people or the planet, it's to make money at all costs.

I don't think that is a bad thing or that corporations are evil or any nonsense like that. I just believe that corporations are a tool with a specific purpose. Because of what corporations are they must be regulated in order to provide a net benefit to society. If they are not regulated, corporations will turn to any means to create a profit. That includes screwing over the people they are supposed to benefit.

The financial collapse is a perfect example of that. Financial corporations found a way to exploit a huge profit margins buy bundling bad mortgages together and disguising them as solid investments. They were not breaking the law by doing this because the laws that prevented them from screwing us all over were eliminated. That was a financial regulation we needed, but people preaching deregulation as a way to increase profits threw those regulations out without thinking about the long term consequences.

Ron Paul is a free market fundamentalist who believes that a good way to make a buck is to remove all the financial regulations that are designed to protect the people. Well he's right, that is a good way to make a buck. It's also extremely harmful to the people of this country.

Ron Paul believes that the free hand of the market will eventually sort everything out on it's own and therefor regulating it is unnecessary. He's right. It will. But the flaw in his logic is that he isn't thinking through the costs of letting the free market sort itself out.

He also doesn't think about who a free market would ultimately benefit. The eventual result of a free market are winners and losers. Unfortunately over a long enough time span, there are fewer winners scoring greater wins while everyone else suffers. The evidence of that is the lack of social mobility in America compared to European countries with more moderate mixed economies. If you look bad to 1880's America you see the result of a long period of time with two few economic regulations. We had the Rockefellers, JP Morgan, the Carnegies, and then we had the majority suffering so they could make extreme profits. Today we are not far from that. The wealthy control more now than they have since the time of the robber barons. The middle class is disappearing.

Back in the 1940s-1960s (the most prosperous time in our history) our economy was thriving. Back then when you got a certain amount of wealth, you paid a high tax rate that went to making our country great. People still made money. There were still rich people. The profit motive and capitalism worked fine. In fact with all the strict financial regulations and high tax rates we had back then, this country and capitalism worked even better than it does today because so much of that money went back to investing in our communities. Now our cities and infrastructure are falling apart, we are debating doing terrible things like cutting education, infrastructure spending, and health care for tax cuts to the people who need it least.

Ron Paul wants to take us in the opposite direction from the time in our history the country was most successful. I think that's wrong. I think capitalism is just great, but you can't let corporations just make money however they want because that hurts the people economic success is supposed to benefit. You see evidence of that today. Look at the stock market. It's almost completely recovered to pre-recession levels. But look how high the unemployment is. The corporations have recovered, but they've recovered in a way that does not employ Americans. They are not doing what we need them to do, employ people. We can regulate them in a way where it becomes more profitable to employ Americans or we can deregulate them even further to where they are making profits at the expense of the American people.

Some people will call me a socialist/communist/marxist for thinking this way. But I'd argue that my views are basically in line with the republican party in the 1950s-1970s. It isn't me moving to the left as much as the country moving too far to the right economically. It just isn't healthy or in our best interest to move too far to the right or left economically. An extreme free market purest like Ron Paul is not the answer.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
Interesting how you say he promotes monopolies, but our current government does not. Here's some examples how your wrong.
I'm not promoting status quo either. I think we should have a modernized version of the economic system we had under the Eisenhower administration.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Granted your right in the point that it may provide insight into areas where you excel and what not, it's very flawed and misleading because in order to quantify your IQ you must be able to define what intelligence is. http://www.personality-and-aptitude-career-tests.com/iq-test-scores.html

Anyways, this is a waste of time.
good point, but i would point out that there is a general consensus about what intelligence is.

philosophy of intelligence would posit that we define intelligence as that which is useful, more or less.

book smarts can be useful. so can street smarts. so can a good memory. so can good spatial reasoning. so can many other types of intelligence be useful.

but you fall short. not only is intelligence subjective, the tests are also inherently biased! however, just like a roll of the dice may yield various outcomes, with repetition over time you will see a clear pattern.

but, you probably know as i do, that intelligence does not really seem to matter on an internet forum :)

so i agree with you on your point that intelligence is subjective and impossible to quantify precisely. but we have enough empirical evidence to narrow it down to a fairly precise range.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
Dan Kone, you just picked up this argument from another thread and dragged it over here. I'd like a response to this post then https://www.rollitup.org/politics/434114-truth-about-ron-paul-13.html#post5777261

I'm just curious why you completely disappeared on that thread and picked up the argument over here......
Because the responses I was getting were "no! you're wrong!" "why am I wrong?" "I won't explain that to you! you're just wrong!"

I'm the type who will keep bringing up points until I get a legitimate answer.

Oh yeah... arguing over IQ tests is only proving how stupid you are. You guys are avoiding the debate topics and exuberating your intelligence. It's a very alpha male style tactic, kind of like "I'm stronger than you so I'm telling you your wrong so shut up"
Agreed. Besides, I'd win that one :twisted:

but by saying that I just contradicted myself proving I'm stupid :dunce:
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
Granted your right in the point that it may provide insight into areas where you excel and what not, it's very flawed and misleading because in order to quantify your IQ you must be able to define what intelligence is. http://www.personality-and-aptitude-career-tests.com/iq-test-scores.html

Anyways, this is a waste of time.
IQ tests can provide false results. I happen to be very good at test taking so I get ridiculously high scores on IQ tests, but that doesn't translate into anything meaningful at all.

I do believe in full spectrum apptitude testing though. I went here and found it much more accurate than IQ test numbers. http://www.jocrf.org/testing_centers/index.html

IQ testing would only work if there were only one type of intelligence. But there is not. People can be very smart in some areas and not so much in others.
 

txhazard

Well-Known Member
I don't know why people intend on generalizing groups so much. This is what propels racism and other bigotry so much. I'm a big supporter of Ron Paul. First thing I did when I saw that post was began searching it. You can't take the words of one and plaster it as the words of many, that's just ignorance and it's exactly what your preaching against. Thus making you both hypocrites.

Anyways, links on the statement please, I can't find. What I did find was a news article blaming Ron Paul for hijacking an airline and claimed his real name was D.B. Cooper... weird.

Also, how can you be infallible, when just about every one of your colleagues considers you a joke?
That cooper joke...made my night.
 

sync0s

Well-Known Member
Because the responses I was getting were "no! you're wrong!" "why am I wrong?" "I won't explain that to you! you're just wrong!"

I'm the type who will keep bringing up points until I get a legitimate answer.



Agreed. Besides, I'd win that one :twisted:

but by saying that I just contradicted myself proving I'm stupid :dunce:
I believe my referenced post at the very least proves that I was not merely saying "no, you're wrong." However, I understand now. Back to the debate:

Dan Kone said:
The financial collapse is a perfect example of that. Financial corporations found a way to exploit a huge profit margins buy bundling bad mortgages together and disguising them as solid investments. They were not breaking the law by doing this because the laws that prevented them from screwing us all over were eliminated. That was a financial regulation we needed, but people preaching deregulation as a way to increase profits threw those regulations out without thinking about the long term consequences.
People always try to take this market bubble and blame it on deregulation. It annoys me, because it's completely opposite of the truth:

"The dominant policy conclusion that can be drawn from the findings of this paper is that the existence of subprime loan products alone may not merit primary blame for the problems currently being experienced in the housing and mortgage markets. Rather, political and regulatory actions and economic conditions -- which led to a disruption in traditional flows of credit into the market and permitted not only new instrument designs, but also weaker underwriting standards, to flow in great volumes into the void – may be deemed complicit, if not dominant in precipitating the subsequent series of adverse events." http://today.uci.edu/pdf/subprime_lending_08.pdf

Plenty of charts, statistics, and evidence in this well written paper to prove the point. Thank you to the University of California Irvine
 

budlover13

King Tut
don't confuse intelligence with common sense, genius, or logic.

i personally make many bad decisions, almost self-destructive. but that is not to say that i don't rank high on an IQ test.

IQ tests measure things like spatial reasoning, memory, and other things. not all of these correlate to inventing the atomic bomb.

that you took two tests which came in so close is a good indicator that you are very intelligent in many ways. your measured responses and posts reinforce this suspicion.

don't discount yourself. you are likely among the 99.99th percentile in overall intelligence.



perhaps, but IQ tests have a valid purpose and are reliable predictors of one's mental capacities.

you can take one for free from a student learning to administer the test. it provides excellent insight into areas where you may excel and areas where you may not excel. there are many different types of intelligence, it is not just a Q&A exam.

if you can't find a free one, it only costs $25 - $40 to take one, and they can provide great insight as to where you excel and where you fall short with respect to various components of what we consider "intelligence".

@UB: i agree.

@syncOs: You saw us have an intelligent, informative, polite, educated, well worded, non-offensive discussion. i saw no arument regarding iq. Lack of comprehension & observation skills is the reason nobody sees the big picture imho. Just saying.

@Dan: Referencing post #47, DAAAAAMNN!!! LOL! WOT!!! ;)
It's 12:47 am here and i will read and respond tomorrow. Thank you for opening the discussion with me though.

And good night to all.
 

DelSlow

Well-Known Member
Ron Paul for president? Sure, why not. It would be nice to have a president that doesn't scoff at the idea of legalizing cannabis.

I like Gary Johnson too.

If neither is on the ballot, I guess I'll go with Obeezy or I just won't vote.
 

deprave

New Member
The financial collapse is a perfect example of that. Financial corporations found a way to exploit a huge profit margins buy bundling bad mortgages together and disguising them as solid investments.
And they couldn't of done it without the Federal Reserve.
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
Bring the troops home, President Paul can and will do that.
Stop funding every tin pot dictator around the world, President Paul can do that.
He could end corprate welfare let them sink or swim, proping them up only perpetuates the problems with them.
As for not bailing out buisness causing a depression, a depression is only a matter of time,
easy money is what caused the current problem I fail to see how more easy money is a good idea.
Nearly everything else he wants to do he knows will have to come from congress.
He wants to have the debate on all the things progressives worry about.
Corpratism, monopolies ect. we can have those debates, Dr. Paul works closely with Kacinich and others on many things.
Dr. Paul hasn't lied or flip-floped on anything (save the death penalty at the federal level, no longer supports) For 30 odd years he has called it as he has seen it.
I can't believe Progressives will not support Him and will vote in Obama again even after following Bush policies his whole first term.
Some of us on the right are reaching out to you anti-war, anti-monopoly, anti-patriot act progressives and all we get is hate.
Obama and all the D's save a few (Like Kacinich) are nothing but GD Neo-Cons there isn't a dimes worth of diffrence between the D's and the R's.
Help us try to save our civil liberties (I prefer Rights, liberties imply they can be taken away) Help us get out of all thes wars.
We need you guys.
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
People always try to take this market bubble and blame it on deregulation. It annoys me, because it's completely opposite of the truth:
I believe that the facts prove you incorrect.

The reason banks could give out these subprime loans to people who couldn't afford them was they had the ability to sell them off.

The only reason people would buy these bad loans is because they were bundled up in a way people didn't understand what they actually were and given an AAA rating to make them appear to be a safe investment.

The only reason these bundled junk loans were given an AAA rating is because we deregulated the sector of the market in charge of watching over them when we passed the commodities futures modernization act. Rather than having regulators decide which of these bundles should be given what rating, we let Wall St regulate itself. The result of deregulation was what is expected. The deregulated industry found a way to make a profit without any regard to the long term effects of what they were doing. It didn't matter as long as they were making a profit.

Basically, by deregulating this part of the financial services industry, we made it legal for people to buy up junk loans, bundle them up into something no one understood, and them lie to people telling them they were a safer investment than they really were. This gave banks the ability to hand out as many bad loans as possible without any risk to them.

Now that single act of deregulation in itself was enough to cause the housing trouble. But it was another act of deregulation that led us to the brink of a great depression.

It's one thing to have wall st stock market investment banks fail, it's another entirely to have our commercial banks fails. Well unfortuntely we deregulated banking as well. We got rid of the great depression era safe guard which successfully stopped us from having that problem for 60 years.

We got rid of the regulations preventing commercial banks from engaging in risky Wall St gambling activities when we repealed Glass Steagal. So thanks to deregulation all our commercial lending institutions where heavily invested in these deregulated fraudulent subprime mortgages. This pushed all our banks to the brink of collapse. If we did not bail them out we would have had he exact same event we had that led to the great depression.

Now you can spout off all the rhetoric about the invisible hand of the free market correcting itself all you want. That doesn't change the actually facts of what happened. Deregulation brought us to the brink of a great depression. Depressions are the cost of having free market trading. IMO that isn't worth it. I'll take fair trade over free trade any day.

"The dominant policy conclusion that can be drawn from the findings of this paper is that the existence of subprime loan products alone may not merit primary blame for the problems currently being experienced in the housing and mortgage markets.Rather, political and regulatory actions and economic conditions -- which led to a disruption in traditional flows of credit into the market and permitted not only new instrument designs, but also weaker underwriting standards, to flow in great volumes into the void – may be deemed complicit, if not dominant in precipitating the subsequent series of adverse events." http://today.uci.edu/pdf/subprime_lending_08.pdf
lol. what load of crap. They are isolating the effects of the defaulting loans themselves without factoring in the effects it had on the economy as a whole, job loss, the run on the banks, the drop in consumer confidence, the financial institutions collapsing, etc.

Sure if you isolate one effect you can make the claim that the subprime mortgages didnt' cause the recession. But you'd have to be extremely gullible to believe the effects of those loans defaulting didn't cause the problem.

Come on now....
 

Dan Kone

Well-Known Member
@Dan: Referencing post #47, DAAAAAMNN!!! LOL! WOT!!! ;)
It's 12:47 am here and i will read and respond tomorrow. Thank you for opening the discussion with me though.
Sorry man. Too long winded, I know. But not everything can be summed up into a paragraph. At least not by me.
 
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