TheBrutalTruth
Well-Known Member
No, water doesn't harbor the potential for life inside of it. Water is not a spermatoza or a egg. There is no genetic information in water.
Intelligent design
- Thread starter natrone23
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Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
So you're saying sperm and/or eggs must be present to produce life?What about asexual reproduction?What about plants?Bacteria has DNA...so do plants...they don't have sperm and eggs.Apparently you think only organisms that produce sexually can be counted as life forms? Do you think the argument for intelligent design is really supported when so many life forms are so inefficiently made?Being inefficient , they must evolve.Nature shows us, you fail to adapt, you die.So if a perfect god created us,and this perfect being makes no mistakes, why would this being not make everything perfectly suited to its environment to begin with?Why do we even evolve at all?
TheBrutalTruth
Well-Known Member
TheBrutalTruth
Well-Known Member
As far as the second portion of your comment, regarding the creation of humanity at the hands of a God/Gods/ or some other cosmic entity.
I have no proof of that either, thus am disinclined to believe it.
Though if we're going to ban unprovable theories from school, then both Evolution and Creationism/Intelligent Design should receive the same treatment. It'd actually free up the schools to have time to teach students how to add 1 + 1.
Of course, to actually turn out intelligent, well prepared young adults the schools would also have to stop trying to force electives down everyone's throat and return to the point where classes in Rhetoric and Logic were required to graduate.
cheef tomahawk
Well-Known Member
ya i saw it very good the crazy fundamentalists need to watch it might learn some real shit.
Tronica
Well-Known Member
micro evolution. the future. the evolution of the self thro intelligence and genetics.
no longer bound by the evolution of the species. you are your own evolution. neo humanity arises. the evolved become enlightened. new evolutions are reached. truth, freedom, happiness, godliness.
no longer bound by the evolution of the species. you are your own evolution. neo humanity arises. the evolved become enlightened. new evolutions are reached. truth, freedom, happiness, godliness.
CrackerJax
New Member
Since Darwin (and Wallace) introduced Evolution 150 years ago, and by the way, if it wasn't them it would have been someone else, every new discovery of nature in every aspect since has reinforced Evolution.
Intelligent design has a FATAL flaw in it. It sees or seeks perfection, but this is not how nature works at all. Humans are far from perfect by design. Most things aren't.....no, nature tends to just make do with what it has. Sometimes just being good is enough.
One could look at the human spinal cord. This is a HORRIBLE piece of engineering. If nature intended to seek perfection we would have two or three spines to carry our load. Almost every human will have back problems at some point in their life.
Intelligent design has yet another FATAL flaw. It cannot cover all the bases as evolution can and has since its discovery. When considering something to be taught as equal or better, you must have at LEAST the same amount of proof that the opposing explanation has. Intelligent design has more holes than swiss cheese.....Non valid
There's the crux of the biscuit, intelligent design isn't science...it's religion dressing up as science. it's people struggling to hold onto antiquated pre tech beliefs in the face of science actually explaining what would have been the churches role not so long ago. it's about POWER... and a desperation to hold onto it.
out.
Intelligent design has a FATAL flaw in it. It sees or seeks perfection, but this is not how nature works at all. Humans are far from perfect by design. Most things aren't.....no, nature tends to just make do with what it has. Sometimes just being good is enough.
One could look at the human spinal cord. This is a HORRIBLE piece of engineering. If nature intended to seek perfection we would have two or three spines to carry our load. Almost every human will have back problems at some point in their life.
Intelligent design has yet another FATAL flaw. It cannot cover all the bases as evolution can and has since its discovery. When considering something to be taught as equal or better, you must have at LEAST the same amount of proof that the opposing explanation has. Intelligent design has more holes than swiss cheese.....Non valid
There's the crux of the biscuit, intelligent design isn't science...it's religion dressing up as science. it's people struggling to hold onto antiquated pre tech beliefs in the face of science actually explaining what would have been the churches role not so long ago. it's about POWER... and a desperation to hold onto it.
out.
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
I never said water had genetic material.I said chemicals reactions occured, resulting in the conditions for life.Comets and asteroids diversified the chemical compounds of that water.Amino acids came to be...and through these chemical reactions, organic compounds were formed.These compounds evolved into life.I don't see how you can misinterpret what I'm saying.
So should we stop teaching science?Because science talks about a lot of THEORIES that we haven't conclusively proven yet, however, by teaching these children about science and scientific processes,they are learning how to take steps to come to a conclusion...proving the theory.So evolution is just a theory,but more and more proof that we are on the right path mounts as technology becomes more advanced.Science is not dogma, or religion...it is the act of proving or disproving a hypothesis,sorting out facts from fiction.A process of elimination.Using the process of elimination, we can say that most definitely, the world was not created in 6000 years,and dinosaurs and humans did not inhabit the earth at the same time.Science IS LOGIC!And when we see the evidence that shows us that A and B do in fact lead to C,we can then rule out other possibilityes based on their likelyhood.A and B do not equal GOD.
CrackerJax
New Member
There is another scenario which should be considered with Intelligent design. Many species can make every correct move to keep moving up towards species perfection and may very well end up at the top of a peak. Just like most things in life, it's up or out. But Intelligent design assumes there is only one peak for man, and nature has shown that there are many peaks and valleys.
You may find yourself at a peak but look around to see that there are other higher peaks and are unobtainable.
Evolution answers this nicely with "species yet to be named...in our case , the next model.
Humans are still evolving.....about 50000years ago most of the human population was lactose intolerant. This was a disadvantage. One can obtain many more calories from acow if one can drink its milk as opposed to using the cow only once for meat. Milk drinking societies with all other things being equal, will win out over the lactose intolerant.
Today, most people have developed a tolerance for milk after childhood. People who are lactose intolerant are an indicator to a past history. They missed the mutation.
That's not Intelligent design at play. That's evolution.
out.
You may find yourself at a peak but look around to see that there are other higher peaks and are unobtainable.
Evolution answers this nicely with "species yet to be named...in our case , the next model.
Humans are still evolving.....about 50000years ago most of the human population was lactose intolerant. This was a disadvantage. One can obtain many more calories from acow if one can drink its milk as opposed to using the cow only once for meat. Milk drinking societies with all other things being equal, will win out over the lactose intolerant.
Today, most people have developed a tolerance for milk after childhood. People who are lactose intolerant are an indicator to a past history. They missed the mutation.
That's not Intelligent design at play. That's evolution.
out.
ViRedd
New Member
Stoney sez ...
"I never said water had genetic material.I said chemicals reactions occured, resulting in the conditions for life."
Well, as a devout Evolutionist and a monkey's Aunt, Stoney, please describe in your own words how those various chemicals were formed, what those chemicals were ... and how they reacted to create life here on earth ... or anywhere else in the Universe. Thanks ...
Vi
"I never said water had genetic material.I said chemicals reactions occured, resulting in the conditions for life."
Well, as a devout Evolutionist and a monkey's Aunt, Stoney, please describe in your own words how those various chemicals were formed, what those chemicals were ... and how they reacted to create life here on earth ... or anywhere else in the Universe. Thanks ...
Vi
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
Gee, Vi, I did already, more than once, thanks.I don't think I can simplify my explanation any further, but let me try:Basically,unliving elements came together and chemical reactions formed....kinda like when you mix baking soda and vinegar...that's a REACTION.
Well,at the particular point in time that these various elements came together, conditions were right for amino acids to form...the LEGO's of life, if you will.A foundation was laid,metaphorically speaking.
Soon, strands of proteins formed.Eventually,single celled bacterias,yeasts, things of that nature formed.Through cell division, they replicated...as more of them came into being,their "territory "expanded,and they were introduced to slightly different environmental conditions...kind of like how different parts of the world today have different climates and species suited to those climates.That's because the bacteria had to either mutate, or ADAPT to the environment, or die.Ya with me still?
Eventually these organisms became more and more diverse and complex,and differed quite a bit from the original ancestor.Kinda like how you can look at the grandkids and see a family resemblance,but there are definite differences.
Somewhere along the line,brains formed.And central nervous systems..because, you see, these organisms were ADAPTING to their environment, and needed to have more complex bodies to,say, move the legs they now had,or the fins,operate the jaws.So these very basic and rudimentry brains and nervous systems served as an electrical system to run these larger bodies.As competition between these more complex organisms became more fierce,better and better brains were required,more efficient nervous systems,and instinct developed.You know..like fight or flight,nurturing of young,the need to eat, etc.
Since protein is essential in the development of higher brains,predators had to become more cunning,and abstract thought came into play.As in...knowing that running head on into a triceratops with its horn lowered at your soft T rex belly was not the best way to get the meat without sustaining injury.And the triceratops in turn needed to understand in its basic way that the T rex had vulnerabilities that might allow the Triceratops to escape...fight or flight.Survival of the fittest.Am I going too fast?
As primates evolved,and our brains grew because of the protein we got from meat we supplemented our diets with,our brains began to have the capacity for more forethought and insight.Tool making happened,making our lives a bit easier, allowing us a brief respite from constant survival mode..in essence, creating new chemical pathways in our brains where the seeds of higher thought took root.Soon our loose packs became clans, and tribes, and we began to form basic opinions on what was good for the herd and what was detrimental, or our definitions of "right" and "wrong".As we became more and more civilized and leisure was not so rare, we began to develop art, philosophy,and sought meanings to things we could not explain.Hence, religion.And because we are afraid of the unknown, and don't want to comprehend nothingness,we designed a "purpose" for it all to comfort us in the dark.
As we came into technology, we saw(well some of us did) that blind faith in fairytales with no evidence to prove them was a hindrance to our developement...and as we see in nature,if you do not adapt, you die.
We began to truly question the truth of things, and come up with rational explanations for the things we could not understand.Slowly,the superstition of the past gave way to enlightenment,for those who were willing to think critically.We had reason.
Now, as a proud member of the blind unquestioning Creationists, YOU tell ME what evidence you have that points to the earth being created in 6000 years by an insane invisible tyrant with a magic wand who visits plagues upon his children and sacrifices his son to a bloodthirsty mob so he can hold it over their heads for 2000 years?And if your god exists, and "loves" his children so much,why does he punish them for the mistakes of Adam and Eve, and visit suffering upon the most innocent without batting an eye?I'd say that would make him one hell of an abusive father, and he should have his parental rights revoked.
Well,at the particular point in time that these various elements came together, conditions were right for amino acids to form...the LEGO's of life, if you will.A foundation was laid,metaphorically speaking.
Soon, strands of proteins formed.Eventually,single celled bacterias,yeasts, things of that nature formed.Through cell division, they replicated...as more of them came into being,their "territory "expanded,and they were introduced to slightly different environmental conditions...kind of like how different parts of the world today have different climates and species suited to those climates.That's because the bacteria had to either mutate, or ADAPT to the environment, or die.Ya with me still?
Eventually these organisms became more and more diverse and complex,and differed quite a bit from the original ancestor.Kinda like how you can look at the grandkids and see a family resemblance,but there are definite differences.
Somewhere along the line,brains formed.And central nervous systems..because, you see, these organisms were ADAPTING to their environment, and needed to have more complex bodies to,say, move the legs they now had,or the fins,operate the jaws.So these very basic and rudimentry brains and nervous systems served as an electrical system to run these larger bodies.As competition between these more complex organisms became more fierce,better and better brains were required,more efficient nervous systems,and instinct developed.You know..like fight or flight,nurturing of young,the need to eat, etc.
Since protein is essential in the development of higher brains,predators had to become more cunning,and abstract thought came into play.As in...knowing that running head on into a triceratops with its horn lowered at your soft T rex belly was not the best way to get the meat without sustaining injury.And the triceratops in turn needed to understand in its basic way that the T rex had vulnerabilities that might allow the Triceratops to escape...fight or flight.Survival of the fittest.Am I going too fast?
As primates evolved,and our brains grew because of the protein we got from meat we supplemented our diets with,our brains began to have the capacity for more forethought and insight.Tool making happened,making our lives a bit easier, allowing us a brief respite from constant survival mode..in essence, creating new chemical pathways in our brains where the seeds of higher thought took root.Soon our loose packs became clans, and tribes, and we began to form basic opinions on what was good for the herd and what was detrimental, or our definitions of "right" and "wrong".As we became more and more civilized and leisure was not so rare, we began to develop art, philosophy,and sought meanings to things we could not explain.Hence, religion.And because we are afraid of the unknown, and don't want to comprehend nothingness,we designed a "purpose" for it all to comfort us in the dark.
As we came into technology, we saw(well some of us did) that blind faith in fairytales with no evidence to prove them was a hindrance to our developement...and as we see in nature,if you do not adapt, you die.
We began to truly question the truth of things, and come up with rational explanations for the things we could not understand.Slowly,the superstition of the past gave way to enlightenment,for those who were willing to think critically.We had reason.
Now, as a proud member of the blind unquestioning Creationists, YOU tell ME what evidence you have that points to the earth being created in 6000 years by an insane invisible tyrant with a magic wand who visits plagues upon his children and sacrifices his son to a bloodthirsty mob so he can hold it over their heads for 2000 years?And if your god exists, and "loves" his children so much,why does he punish them for the mistakes of Adam and Eve, and visit suffering upon the most innocent without batting an eye?I'd say that would make him one hell of an abusive father, and he should have his parental rights revoked.
misshestermoffitt
New Member
For those of you who believe in the invisible guy in the sky, do you also believe that as a child he like to pull the wings off of flies? It would seem right up his alley.
I don't understand praying, at first god had to pay attention to 2 people, and he still was laying down on the job where that "tree of knowledge" thing was concerned.
If a woman today said she was a pregnant virgin and God knocked her up, you'd shred her yourself Vi, and don't say you wouldn't.
Could it be, that since there is life here, there may be life elsewhere? Maybe there was another planet much like this one, where fat rich guys got ahead and everyone else got fucked. Maybe they eventually blew themselves up. Maybe a meteor from their world crashed here with a little piece of bacteria on it. I know, that's way more far fetched than some invisible dude saying, poof, here's my ant farm......
I don't understand praying, at first god had to pay attention to 2 people, and he still was laying down on the job where that "tree of knowledge" thing was concerned.
If a woman today said she was a pregnant virgin and God knocked her up, you'd shred her yourself Vi, and don't say you wouldn't.
Could it be, that since there is life here, there may be life elsewhere? Maybe there was another planet much like this one, where fat rich guys got ahead and everyone else got fucked. Maybe they eventually blew themselves up. Maybe a meteor from their world crashed here with a little piece of bacteria on it. I know, that's way more far fetched than some invisible dude saying, poof, here's my ant farm......
ViRedd
New Member
"Basically,unliving elements came together and chemical reactions formed...."
And from where did those "non-living elements" come from, Stoney?
And no, I don't think it took 6000 years to form the earth because I have no evidence to give you to prove that as fact. Just like you have no evidence that life came from chemical reactions between "non-living elements."
Here's facts I DO believe in ... You and I are both taking our beliefs based upon FAITH.
Vi
And from where did those "non-living elements" come from, Stoney?
And no, I don't think it took 6000 years to form the earth because I have no evidence to give you to prove that as fact. Just like you have no evidence that life came from chemical reactions between "non-living elements."
Here's facts I DO believe in ... You and I are both taking our beliefs based upon FAITH.
Vi
NewGrowth
Well-Known Member
Vi's right, science knows very little and the reactions produced in a lab with "possible early pre-life earth atmosphere". These reactions only produced carbons that could be building blocks for simple life. No life was produced. So really the origin of life is still a mystery.
I personally don't believe it can be explained logically with our current understanding of the universe. Many spiritual scriptures point clearly but to know one's source it must be experienced. Spirituality has been skewed and Religious institutions have destroyed our ability to examine that which we do not understand. Faith is an error, open your mind to all possibilities for this is the only way to examine something so dynamic.
Intelligent Design is religious crap however and religion does not mix with science. Spirituality does but it requires a very open mind. Look at studies done on the human mind and consciousness with the Dali Lama. They have produced incredible results. Look at Masaru Emoto's this mix of science and spirit can provide profound conclusions.
Intelligent Design is a dressed up religious preaching however trying to prove humans existed with dinosaurs and the earth is 6-12k years old, thats a fairy tale with our current understanding of logic reason and science.
I thought this discussion was going to end up with a bunch of Jesus banter, I'm glad it has not.
I personally don't believe it can be explained logically with our current understanding of the universe. Many spiritual scriptures point clearly but to know one's source it must be experienced. Spirituality has been skewed and Religious institutions have destroyed our ability to examine that which we do not understand. Faith is an error, open your mind to all possibilities for this is the only way to examine something so dynamic.
Intelligent Design is religious crap however and religion does not mix with science. Spirituality does but it requires a very open mind. Look at studies done on the human mind and consciousness with the Dali Lama. They have produced incredible results. Look at Masaru Emoto's this mix of science and spirit can provide profound conclusions.
Intelligent Design is a dressed up religious preaching however trying to prove humans existed with dinosaurs and the earth is 6-12k years old, thats a fairy tale with our current understanding of logic reason and science.
I thought this discussion was going to end up with a bunch of Jesus banter, I'm glad it has not.
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
Make up you mind? You do realize that science isn't decided by majority opinion. In spite of what some people think, there is no big debate going on in the scientific community. Evolution is currently the only scientific theory that explains the diversity of life.
For those folks that still don't get it, Evolution doesn't say anything about the origin of life. It explains the diversity of life.
Just like Newtonian mechanics explains how matter moves, not where it originated from.
Just like General Relativity explains gravity, but does not explain the origin of gravity.
In non-scientific terms, you can learn a great deal about music just by listening to an orchestra, without knowing where or how any of the instruments are made.
So please stop confusing the origin of life issue which have multiple competing hypotheses to the ToE.
TheBrutalTruth
Well-Known Member
Not a question of not teaching science, unlike many of the scientific theories Evolution has no proof testing.
Einstein's Theory of General Relativity when put forth included tests that could be conducted to determine if it was valid or not. It also explained anomalies in the orbit of Mercury that were not explained by Newtonian Physics.
Evolution on the other hand, has no such tests, and attempts to validate it have failed, or were proven to be fraudulent.
New York Moth Study - Fraudulent test where Moths that were coated in Coal Dust (and then taped to trees) were given as evidence of evolution. The moths had gone from being light colored to being dark colored, according to the evolutionists, instead it was revealed a little bit of water would show that the Evolutionists had fed the public bullshit.
Experiments towards trying to get life to arise out of the supposed mixture of chemicals that existed in primordial Earth's environment. Failed.
And even if Comets, Asteroids and other intrastellar and interstellar bodies do have viable genetic material (material that comes from previously living entities, such as bacteria) you still fail to show where the life comes from.
Evolution is a crock of bullshit at best, and a bogus pseudo-religion at worst.
Besides, if I must believe something, I'd sooner believe that humanity are the descendants of Angels, and thus are nothing more than fallen angels, than believe that we are the descendants of apes. At least being the descendants of Angels imposes a higher standard on us than being nothing but a bunch of Animals.
If we are nothing but Animals then all we're obligated to do is fuck, eat, shit, and sleep, instead of using our intelligence to better our lot in life.
Then again, I'd sooner be accused of being a Republican than a Democrat for the same reason. Democrat's just want everyone to do nothing but fuck, eat, shit and sleep with government feeding them at the trough.
Suet, Monkeys, Suet!
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
You are very wrong. Many of Einstein's predictions still haven't been verified. One of GR famous predictions of light being affected by gravity wasn't verified until Sir Arthur Eddington's photos of the 1919 eclipse, but that was only a very small part of the theory.
In much the same way, there have been many verifications of evolution. The predictions have been made and verified using genetic analysis. In fact, since DNA was discovered, there was a great opportunity for science to falsify evolution since if the theory of common ancestory was incorrect, the genes shared between various species would be more random. Instead we find that plants and animals closely related in the evolutionary phylegenetic tree will share the appropriate percentage of genetic material that can be predicted based on how they're related.
As for your complaint about the peppered moth. The pinning of moths you refer to was only for the purpose of taking a picture that ended up being used in textbooks, the science wasn't based on the picture but the actual melanism of the moth.
Another common criticism involves well-known pictures of moths resting on trunks, used in many textbooks. These photos were prepared (dead moths pinned to branches), which has been conflated into the idea that all the studies were staged, ignoring the point that professional photography to illustrate textbooks uses dead insects because of the considerable difficulty in getting good images of small, relatively fast moving, animals, and that the studies actually consisted of observational data rather than using such photographs. The photographs in Michael Majerus's 1998 book Melanism: Evolution in Action are unstaged pictures of live moths in the wild, and the photographs of moths on tree-trunks, apart from some slight blurring, look no different than the "staged" photographs.[19]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
medicineman
New Member
about 50000years ago most of the human population was lactose intolerant.
How in the mind of Minolta could a mammal be lactose intolerant, as they suckle at birth?? I call Bullshirt. Do you expect that humans 50000 years ago were born with teeth to chew up on their lessor endowed species. 50,000 years ago there were no humans, just upright walking monkeys. The stone age didn't end untill about 6,000-2,500 BC, which corelates with the ID theory, that intelligence (IE Soul) was introduced to Species either upgraded or introduced by an outside influence. The Bigfoot would be an example of evolution in monkeys (Simians). Humans are a separate breed altogether. Look how having forsaken their creator they have run rampant in the world creating havoc and destruction. How many monkeys (simians) can you say did/do that?
How in the mind of Minolta could a mammal be lactose intolerant, as they suckle at birth?? I call Bullshirt. Do you expect that humans 50000 years ago were born with teeth to chew up on their lessor endowed species. 50,000 years ago there were no humans, just upright walking monkeys. The stone age didn't end untill about 6,000-2,500 BC, which corelates with the ID theory, that intelligence (IE Soul) was introduced to Species either upgraded or introduced by an outside influence. The Bigfoot would be an example of evolution in monkeys (Simians). Humans are a separate breed altogether. Look how having forsaken their creator they have run rampant in the world creating havoc and destruction. How many monkeys (simians) can you say did/do that?