Is Gay Marriage Really That Big Deal?
- Thread starter joepro
- Start date
ccodiane
New Member
Nope......you're over my head.
ccodiane
New Member
..................*snap*
cleatis
Well-Known Member
I suppose that most of this is fair enough, however I would Imagine that it would cause a great deal of problems if everyone married in front of a judge wasn't really married.
But If religion defines marriage, thus the government has no right to stick their finger in it, then the government has no right to make any law that defines what marriage is either, in other words, then the government has no right or say to say who can marry who. So if this is all a matter of legality, then there really should be no law that says a man can't marry another man.
ccodiane
New Member
Marriage License Laws > Marriage License Requirements > By States
Some requirements set by state law can include:
6-The couple are not close blood relatives.
11-Consummation of the marriage by the act of sexual relations (only a few states require this).
Some requirements set by state law can include:
6-The couple are not close blood relatives.
- Close blood relatives cannot marry, although in some states, first cousins can marry. Of the states that allow first cousins to marry, a few also require that one of the cousins no longer be able to conceive children.
11-Consummation of the marriage by the act of sexual relations (only a few states require this).
- Most states consider a couple to be married when the ceremony ends. Lack of subsequent sexual relations does not automatically affect the validity of the marriage, although in some states non-consummation could be a basis for having the marriage annulled.
TheBrutalTruth
Well-Known Member
Sure why not, lets take the debate in the direction you're pushing it.
In that case why should the people that want to marry the same sex be pressing the government to define it that way?
Oh, wait, that's right, the government in its infinite wisdom decided that marriage benefits society so gave it tax breaks (I'm not saying they are wrong on it benefitting society, just wrong on giving it tax breaks.)
So, if they make it so that married people face the same hurdles as unmarried people, or unmarried people have the same benefits as married people then this entire debate is moot, because the real issue isn't the definition of marriage, but equal access to those tax benefits.
Seamaiden
Well-Known Member
cc, did you happen to bother to read your own link on power of attorney and attorney-in-fact? I don't think you did, or you would see how it actually disproves your assertion that it is a substitute, legally, for marriage. And yes, you do have to prove your assertions of "fact", not opinion, because you are making statements as to fact. Otherwise, it appears that you shot off your big mouf without knowing what the fuck you were talking about. And it doesn't just appear that way, it is that way.
Then you move on to show state marriage requirements, none of which is really pertinent to the very real question of the making of law that, despite being in violation of state or federal Constitution, despite violating rights afforded to all individuals via the Bill of Rights, would remove specific rights from specific individuals on the basis of sexuality. We are not legally allowed to discriminate against individuals on the basis of color (oh, except for you poor, hapless white guys), creed, religion, disability, or sexuality (in other areas, for instance, you'd better be prepared to rent to a gay, or face the consequences). Yet in this one regard we are.
I had SO much more for you, a definition of obfuscation (which is what you're doing when you post that inane stuff), pictures, stories, and more definitions. None of it will sway your opinion, but it proves my assertions and backs up my argument pretty fucking well. I am so good at this, as long as the browser doesn't crash.
Then you move on to show state marriage requirements, none of which is really pertinent to the very real question of the making of law that, despite being in violation of state or federal Constitution, despite violating rights afforded to all individuals via the Bill of Rights, would remove specific rights from specific individuals on the basis of sexuality. We are not legally allowed to discriminate against individuals on the basis of color (oh, except for you poor, hapless white guys), creed, religion, disability, or sexuality (in other areas, for instance, you'd better be prepared to rent to a gay, or face the consequences). Yet in this one regard we are.
I had SO much more for you, a definition of obfuscation (which is what you're doing when you post that inane stuff), pictures, stories, and more definitions. None of it will sway your opinion, but it proves my assertions and backs up my argument pretty fucking well. I am so good at this, as long as the browser doesn't crash.
Seamaiden
Well-Known Member
No, it is far, far more than just tax benefits. I guess I'll have to find that thread again.
ccodiane
New Member
cc, did you happen to bother to read your own link on power of attorney and attorney-in-fact? I don't think you did, or you would see how it actually disproves your assertion that it is a substitute, legally, for marriage. And yes, you do have to prove your assertions of "fact", not opinion, because you are making statements as to fact. Otherwise, it appears that you shot off your big mouf without knowing what the fuck you were talking about. And it doesn't just appear that way, it is that way.
Then you move on to show state marriage requirements, none of which is really pertinent to the very real question of the making of law that, despite being in violation of state or federal Constitution, despite violating rights afforded to all individuals via the Bill of Rights, would remove specific rights from specific individuals on the basis of sexuality. We are not legally allowed to discriminate against individuals on the basis of color (oh, except for you poor, hapless white guys), creed, religion, disability, or sexuality (in other areas, for instance, you'd better be prepared to rent to a gay, or face the consequences). Yet in this one regard we are.
I had SO much more for you, a definition of obfuscation (which is what you're doing when you post that inane stuff), pictures, stories, and more definitions. None of it will sway your opinion, but it proves my assertions and backs up my argument pretty fucking well. I am so good at this, as long as the browser doesn't crash.
Seems like Dave has bolstered your ego a little too much.
You're not as adept at logic as you give yourself credit. And you; attack , attack, attack. Now you sound like Med.
Racism is a right because it cannot be alienated from your
"humanness", it cannot be separated from what might collectively be called "humanity". In the U.S., we all have a right to pursue happiness, as this right is legally granted us by the Framers. I think all normal, reasonable people would agree that the ability to like and dislike, regardless of reason, whomever we choose, is part of that pursuit (of happiness).
States rights, hun. 'Nuff said.
ccodiane
New Member
The Constitution of the United States of America
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility and marriage for all, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Why didn't the Supreme Court take up this travesty of justice right after Roe V Wade? Activist judges my ass; they should be doing MORE!
PS- So a Muslim can be a practicing Muslim, but they can't engage in arranged marriage, an integral part of their belief system for many? Liberty my ass!
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility and marriage for all, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Why didn't the Supreme Court take up this travesty of justice right after Roe V Wade? Activist judges my ass; they should be doing MORE!
PS- So a Muslim can be a practicing Muslim, but they can't engage in arranged marriage, an integral part of their belief system for many? Liberty my ass!
ccodiane
New Member
"PROVE IT! Or do I have to spoon-feed you that, too!"
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1164545966081&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE
Salam, Tesneem.
Thank you for trusting us with your inquiries. Your question touches on the nature of marriage in Islam, and whether it should emanate from one-to-one contact or spring up from a relationship arranged by others apart from the couples themselves.
With this question you are also discussing the concept of consent especially with regard to marriage. Actually, this has been one of the issues that explain clearly the status of women in Islam, since those who maintain that Islam discriminates against women use this point to validate their argument that marriage in Islam is an arranged relationship and women are the victims of this "impromptu marriage" since it implies, according to them, dragging a female into a contract without her consent.
So, the points I want to clarify here are: To what extent does Islam allow a one-to-one relationship between males and females? And, if there are certain requirements for a marriage to be Islamic, does that make all Islamic marriages arranged relationships devoid of consent and love, and therefore fragile?
Though in regulating social relationships, Islam lays a great emphasis on decency and exhorts its adherents to steer clear of obscenity and lewdness, it does not prevent them from getting to know one another, sharing resources and possibly proposing marriage. This takes place in different kinds of social settings like a coeducational setting and a work setting.
Thus in Islam, males and females are allowed to socialize and interact with one another as long as they do not deviate from taqwa (piety and fear of Allah) which guides every action and relation in Islam, be it among Muslims or between Muslims and non-Muslims. Taqwa is the yardstick for us to explain the difference between an Islamic relationship and a non-Islamic one, and it serves as the basis for the choice of a partner in Islam.
(money quote)
Since it is illogical for two people to be thrown together without knowing anything about each other and be expected to successfully relate and intimate, Islam recommends that the suitors see each other before going through with marriage; not only that, they are also allowed to look at each other to be sure of what attracts them to each other.
But the point here is that with taqwa the above-mentioned ruling is not absolute, thus making an Islamic relationship different from a non-Islamic one. Allowing the couple to see each other is by no means a call towards establishing a free-style courtship whereby the couple spend time together privately and get to know each other in a very deep way that leads to pre-marital affairs and illicit sexual intercourse, which we all know the consequence of. Even the act of looking at each other should not be a lustful one, for the basic rule that governs the male-female interaction and intermingling in Islam is "lowering the gaze," another demonstration of taqwa.
As regards the concept of consent, it is very essential in the Islamic marriage. It should not occur to us that Islam pays less attention to this point. Not at all. So according to your question, the fact that Islam puts certain moral restrictions on male-female interaction does not rule out consent from the integral parts of marriage. When a girl reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent, the Prophet (peace be upon him) gave her the choice, either to accept the marriage or to choose to invalidate it. (Ahmad)
This hadith is enough proof that Islam does not approve of the practice whereby two people are thrown into marriage without their consent. In another version of this hadith, the girl said "Actually I accept this marriage but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them.)" (Ibn Majah)
In another hadith, the Prophet made clear that ladies should not be married without being consulted first. Abu Hurairah quoted the Prophet as saying, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her, and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." (Al-Bukhari)
So the notion of "arranged marriage" that you referred to in your question is by no means a tool of discriminating against women or forcing them into building a matrimonial home not of their choice. Though I am not saying here that such practice does not exist; it does, both in Muslim countries and non-Muslim countries. What I am trying to say here is, according to the teachings of Islam, the female has the right to have a say in marriage proposals she receives. So if by the phrase "without the marriage been arranged" you mean marrying a female without her consent, I would say that Islam does not approve of that, and if it happens, the female has the right to annul the marriage, as we have learned from the aforementioned hadith.
A main objective of the Islamic type of an "arranged marriage" is to have the family involved in the choice of a marriage partner, and there is no doubt that this helps a lot in strengthening the marriage, for this certainly gives an indication that with the involvement of the family in this case, the choice of a partner is based not on romantic notions, but rather on a careful, objective evaluation of the compatibility of the couple.
The last point I want to wrap up my answer with is love and its role in Islamic marriages. Without going into too many details, for this needs a separate handling, I would just say that the concept of love in Islam is completely unique: It is based on the same ingredient mentioned above, i.e. taqwa; love without piety leads to mischief .
Love is not abhorred in Islam, on the contrary, it is one of the necessary factors that strengthen faith, as Allah says in the Qur'an what means:
*{Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults}* (Aal `Imran 3:31)
This shows that love in Islam has a divine characteristic in the sense that it is solely for Allah and shrouded with sublimity and majesty. When a Muslim loves something, it is for Allah's sake and that is the main objective which makes love leads to trustworthiness, truthfulness, and fairness.
In the context of male-female relationships, the love recognized by Islam is the one that leads to marriage; that should be the goal. Thus, the love should not be a means of satisfying carnal desires or material whims. So, for love to have a healthy atmosphere where it would properly grow and be normally expressed, it should be covered by the protection of Islamic law.
In a nutshell, love in Islam is a divine gift from Allah the Almighty, and in legislating marriage, love is one of the things He mentioned as ingredients for strengthening the marital bond:
*{And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in peace and tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts)}* (Ar-Rum 30:21)
I hope this answers your question.
Should you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to write to us. Thank you and sorry for this late reply.
Salam
Useful Links:
Man and Woman: Before Marriage?
Marriage Is the Prophet's Sunnah
Distinguishing Culture From Religion Concerning Marriage
Parents Opinion in Marriage
Women and Men in Islamic Marriage
Obedience Within Loving Marriages
Marriage Priorities
How Should a Muslim Marriage and Reception Be?
Bonds of Love and Mercy
Qualities to Look for in a Spouse
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1164545966081&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE
Salam, Tesneem.
Thank you for trusting us with your inquiries. Your question touches on the nature of marriage in Islam, and whether it should emanate from one-to-one contact or spring up from a relationship arranged by others apart from the couples themselves.
With this question you are also discussing the concept of consent especially with regard to marriage. Actually, this has been one of the issues that explain clearly the status of women in Islam, since those who maintain that Islam discriminates against women use this point to validate their argument that marriage in Islam is an arranged relationship and women are the victims of this "impromptu marriage" since it implies, according to them, dragging a female into a contract without her consent.
So, the points I want to clarify here are: To what extent does Islam allow a one-to-one relationship between males and females? And, if there are certain requirements for a marriage to be Islamic, does that make all Islamic marriages arranged relationships devoid of consent and love, and therefore fragile?
Though in regulating social relationships, Islam lays a great emphasis on decency and exhorts its adherents to steer clear of obscenity and lewdness, it does not prevent them from getting to know one another, sharing resources and possibly proposing marriage. This takes place in different kinds of social settings like a coeducational setting and a work setting.
Thus in Islam, males and females are allowed to socialize and interact with one another as long as they do not deviate from taqwa (piety and fear of Allah) which guides every action and relation in Islam, be it among Muslims or between Muslims and non-Muslims. Taqwa is the yardstick for us to explain the difference between an Islamic relationship and a non-Islamic one, and it serves as the basis for the choice of a partner in Islam.
(money quote)
Since it is illogical for two people to be thrown together without knowing anything about each other and be expected to successfully relate and intimate, Islam recommends that the suitors see each other before going through with marriage; not only that, they are also allowed to look at each other to be sure of what attracts them to each other.
But the point here is that with taqwa the above-mentioned ruling is not absolute, thus making an Islamic relationship different from a non-Islamic one. Allowing the couple to see each other is by no means a call towards establishing a free-style courtship whereby the couple spend time together privately and get to know each other in a very deep way that leads to pre-marital affairs and illicit sexual intercourse, which we all know the consequence of. Even the act of looking at each other should not be a lustful one, for the basic rule that governs the male-female interaction and intermingling in Islam is "lowering the gaze," another demonstration of taqwa.
As regards the concept of consent, it is very essential in the Islamic marriage. It should not occur to us that Islam pays less attention to this point. Not at all. So according to your question, the fact that Islam puts certain moral restrictions on male-female interaction does not rule out consent from the integral parts of marriage. When a girl reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent, the Prophet (peace be upon him) gave her the choice, either to accept the marriage or to choose to invalidate it. (Ahmad)
This hadith is enough proof that Islam does not approve of the practice whereby two people are thrown into marriage without their consent. In another version of this hadith, the girl said "Actually I accept this marriage but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them.)" (Ibn Majah)
In another hadith, the Prophet made clear that ladies should not be married without being consulted first. Abu Hurairah quoted the Prophet as saying, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her, and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." (Al-Bukhari)
So the notion of "arranged marriage" that you referred to in your question is by no means a tool of discriminating against women or forcing them into building a matrimonial home not of their choice. Though I am not saying here that such practice does not exist; it does, both in Muslim countries and non-Muslim countries. What I am trying to say here is, according to the teachings of Islam, the female has the right to have a say in marriage proposals she receives. So if by the phrase "without the marriage been arranged" you mean marrying a female without her consent, I would say that Islam does not approve of that, and if it happens, the female has the right to annul the marriage, as we have learned from the aforementioned hadith.
A main objective of the Islamic type of an "arranged marriage" is to have the family involved in the choice of a marriage partner, and there is no doubt that this helps a lot in strengthening the marriage, for this certainly gives an indication that with the involvement of the family in this case, the choice of a partner is based not on romantic notions, but rather on a careful, objective evaluation of the compatibility of the couple.
The last point I want to wrap up my answer with is love and its role in Islamic marriages. Without going into too many details, for this needs a separate handling, I would just say that the concept of love in Islam is completely unique: It is based on the same ingredient mentioned above, i.e. taqwa; love without piety leads to mischief .
Love is not abhorred in Islam, on the contrary, it is one of the necessary factors that strengthen faith, as Allah says in the Qur'an what means:
*{Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults}* (Aal `Imran 3:31)
This shows that love in Islam has a divine characteristic in the sense that it is solely for Allah and shrouded with sublimity and majesty. When a Muslim loves something, it is for Allah's sake and that is the main objective which makes love leads to trustworthiness, truthfulness, and fairness.
In the context of male-female relationships, the love recognized by Islam is the one that leads to marriage; that should be the goal. Thus, the love should not be a means of satisfying carnal desires or material whims. So, for love to have a healthy atmosphere where it would properly grow and be normally expressed, it should be covered by the protection of Islamic law.
In a nutshell, love in Islam is a divine gift from Allah the Almighty, and in legislating marriage, love is one of the things He mentioned as ingredients for strengthening the marital bond:
*{And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in peace and tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts)}* (Ar-Rum 30:21)
I hope this answers your question.
Should you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to write to us. Thank you and sorry for this late reply.
Salam
Useful Links:
Man and Woman: Before Marriage?
Marriage Is the Prophet's Sunnah
Distinguishing Culture From Religion Concerning Marriage
Parents Opinion in Marriage
Women and Men in Islamic Marriage
Obedience Within Loving Marriages
Marriage Priorities
How Should a Muslim Marriage and Reception Be?
Bonds of Love and Mercy
Qualities to Look for in a Spouse
ccodiane
New Member
You're "homo"? And I don't hate you, I just think you're ignorant, and therefore, don't much enjoy your company. You're probably just young though......
ccodiane
New Member
It would definitley be an insult; to homosexuals. A blithering fool among their ranks isn't helping the cause, dude.
ccodiane
New Member
Oh............................
