sixstring2112
Well-Known Member
i seen it last night,although i dont really like his music he was entertaining last night.
Testing Timber's prototype=4000k/660nm and my finger on the flower trigger:)
- Thread starter PSUAGRO.
- Start date
The Dawg
Well-Known Member
I First Saw Don Hoe Sing This Song On the Mike Douglas Show
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
I will get the cxb source(distributor) tomorrow and if reflector holders are on all the units sent..........doubt the cobs are dirty or fake, not asking that,lol
I don't like fat Asian poodles like you do, but like they say " you made your flea ridden bed and now you will have to sleep in it"Hark What's That Faint Sound, That's The Fat Lady Warming Up
Lets make this quick so I don't get any nightmares of yellow flags being thrown around me................NFL is a brutal bitch sometimes
Round 2 Day 15 of 14/10 from seed under timber's cxb 3590 4000k & osram 660/730nm flower trigger(322w)=== with my "3" god/blue diesel girls
........I babied the shit out of the straggler, raised temps/ raised rh(clear cup)/ turned off the circulation fan / very light feeding and we still have this sad state of affairs^^^. She will yield crap with this light schedule, no room for errors @ 12/12,13/11,14/10 from seed. If I can't take three girls full term I probably shouldn't be giving out growing advice..........seriously
.........it's going to be 80f+ on wed 
................I bet Froggy is running his AC in mid- October in NY, crazy. Let's put some money on when I run out of head room this time........haha@Greengenes707 time to reopen a thread, want to see some super frosty buds again!
@The Dawg YOU ARE THE GREATEST GROWER I HAVE EVER SEEN, the dirt under you fingernails has more talent than me, I wake up every day and hope to attain your growing prowess........thanks................ fucking Eagles
be safe and happy growing RIU
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Hi guys. cool stuff. Are these sphere numbers good news, or bad news? They are a bit under the performance we had hoped for, arent they? I think theoretically, my cxbs should be pumping out 164 lumens/watt at 48w, or something of the sort, right? Ive been absent and forgotten most of this stuff. If the numbers were to be explained to a five-year-old, or lednoob, how would you put it?
Stephenj37826
Well-Known Member
I would put it jurry is still out. We don't know a few important pieces of information yet. Once we have ambient temp data as well as AC voltage we can make a more clear assessment of these readings. @PSUAGRO. Is working on getting these last details.
Thanks again for helping us all.
nogod_
Well-Known Member
Hard to say...although it is very nice that PSUAGRO took the time to organize this when he really didn't have to.
Unanswered Q's:
-does the ppf/w number include driver losses?
Edit: also, if so what were those losses? Could be as little as 5% and as much as 10%
-what kind of efficiency penalty did this passively cooled fixture suffer from being run in a room with no air movement whatsoever?
-what would the numbers be if we were able to average out 50 samples of each color temp instead of 4?
It is still possible that high operating temperatures really hurt the cxa/cxb line. We will have a better idea of how to answer that part when we get Stephen's numbers back as his fixture has air moving through the heatsinks inside the case.
Things that we learned for sure:
-you get penalized 8% at that power (50w) using relectors
-there is a lot of green in the 3000k/4000k spectrums that isnt really represented accurately in the spd graph(although power and operating temp do influence this to some degree if I'm not mistaken).
It is *possible* that your chip efficiency can hit 164lum/w if you are keeping them very cool and it turns out that high temps really hurt these particular emitters.
This test is not definitive but as has been mentioned before its nice to have data. If you are running a Timber kit in a sealed room in the summer in Phoenix, I would say expect this performance. If not, I would say wait for more data before jumping to any conclusions.
Unanswered Q's:
-does the ppf/w number include driver losses?
Edit: also, if so what were those losses? Could be as little as 5% and as much as 10%
-what kind of efficiency penalty did this passively cooled fixture suffer from being run in a room with no air movement whatsoever?
-what would the numbers be if we were able to average out 50 samples of each color temp instead of 4?
It is still possible that high operating temperatures really hurt the cxa/cxb line. We will have a better idea of how to answer that part when we get Stephen's numbers back as his fixture has air moving through the heatsinks inside the case.
Things that we learned for sure:
-you get penalized 8% at that power (50w) using relectors
-there is a lot of green in the 3000k/4000k spectrums that isnt really represented accurately in the spd graph(although power and operating temp do influence this to some degree if I'm not mistaken).
It is *possible* that your chip efficiency can hit 164lum/w if you are keeping them very cool and it turns out that high temps really hurt these particular emitters.
This test is not definitive but as has been mentioned before its nice to have data. If you are running a Timber kit in a sealed room in the summer in Phoenix, I would say expect this performance. If not, I would say wait for more data before jumping to any conclusions.
The Dawg
Well-Known Member
Oh Look How Cute Your Little One's Are Making A Happy Face And ChitI will get the cxb source(distributor) tomorrow and if reflector holders are on all the units sent..........doubt the cobs are dirty or fake, not asking that,lol
I don't like fat Asian poodles like you do, but like they say " you made your flea ridden bed and now you will have to sleep in it"
Lets make this quick so I don't get any nightmares of yellow flags being thrown around me................NFL is a brutal bitch sometimes
Round 2 Day 15 of 14/10 from seed under timber's cxb 3590 4000k & osram 660/730nm flower trigger(322w)=== with my "3" god/blue diesel girls
View attachment 3806482 View attachment 3806483 View attachment 3806484 View attachment 3806485 View attachment 3806486 ........I babied the shit out of the straggler, raised temps/ raised rh(clear cup)/ turned off the circulation fan / very light feeding and we still have this sad state of affairs^^^. She will yield crap with this light schedule, no room for errors @ 12/12,13/11,14/10 from seed. If I can't take three girls full term I probably shouldn't be giving out growing advice..........seriously
View attachment 3806492 View attachment 3806493 .........it's going to be 80f+ on wed
@Greengenes707 time to reopen a thread, want to see some super frosty buds again!
@The Dawg YOU ARE THE GREATEST GROWER I HAVE EVER SEEN, the dirt under you fingernails has more talent than me, I wake up every day and hope to attain your growing prowess........thanks................ fucking Eagles
be safe and happy growing RIU
Whistle Blows Yellow Flag Come's Out Of Pocket And The Mike Goes Hot We Have A Penalty Being Assed For Illegal Light Formation As You Can Only Used The 12 x 12 Schedule For The Party Cup Comp
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PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
Alright , got some more info on the tests........ where nice enough to answer some??...... I'm on my phone again so bear with me.
From Nick
"System watts is power at the wall, LEDs + Meanwell.
They are warmed up in a big warehouse with no air movement, ambient is low
70s. We warm them up outside the sphere then put them in the sphere and
take some initial measurements. If there is a large delta between the two
initial measurements we continue to let it warm up until it reaches
equilibrium. We don't like to let it warm up in the sphere because it is
fully enclosed and can easily go overtemp if left in there too long.
PPF numbers by definition are integrated from 400-700 nm, which is why I
include radiant flux. Radiant flux is measured from 380-800 nm.
TMP is not connected, those numbers are arbitrary. We connect thermocouples
to our units when we are doing UL testing, but we don't do it when we shoot
stuff in the sphere."
Again, after telling him to dumb it down for us non-sphere owning folks
"
The sphere has a UL power supply as we are also a UL certified testing
facility. You can run any voltage you want, we always run on 120VAC for the
sake of consistency. In the regular data file it shows the voltage, current
and watts. In my experience this power supply always represents the worst
case scenario.
You'll see every batch of test data says 150F, that is not the temperature
in the sphere. The 150F is just what it happens to spit out if you don't
have a thermocouple plugged in. We run the fixtures outside the sphere room
to get them up to operating temp, then we quickly move them into the sphere
and only have them on long enough to capture the data point. The whole test
takes a minute or two and it's a 2 meter diameter sphere, so it doesn't
really get warm in there. If I had to guess I would say ambient is high 70s
to low 80s inside the sphere.
The inherent disadvantage of the COB is the thermal load in a very small
area. One of these guys should mount each COB on a nice phase change CPU
cooler or liquid cooler, that's about the only way to pick up some
efficiency. Or you can run twice as many COBs and run them at even lower
drive current. "
From Dan, equipment sent in
"AllCOBs tested were 36V CD bin 80 CRI (CXB3590-000N0H-CDxxG) ----- all brand new
Reflector holders were present on all COB kits
CXB distributor......all are received by us in Cree factory packaging from authorized Cree distributors and/or Cree directly - absolutely ZEROquestion of legitimacy and genuine quality
MW driver shipped was the HLG-185H-C1400B for the COBs and HLG-185H-C700A for the Oslons
Reflector used is the F13838 Angelina-XW
The component breakdown is the exact same as listed on our website.
COB and reflector holders - IDEAL 50-2300AN and 50-2303CR
Relectors - Angelina-XW F13838
Meanwell - HLG series (we used 185H-C1400B and 185H-C700A for tests)
All components used in the test were brand NEW......."
Big thanks again to both of them for doing this for us!!
Back to avoiding yellow jackets.........pure evil imo, lol
From Nick
"System watts is power at the wall, LEDs + Meanwell.
They are warmed up in a big warehouse with no air movement, ambient is low
70s. We warm them up outside the sphere then put them in the sphere and
take some initial measurements. If there is a large delta between the two
initial measurements we continue to let it warm up until it reaches
equilibrium. We don't like to let it warm up in the sphere because it is
fully enclosed and can easily go overtemp if left in there too long.
PPF numbers by definition are integrated from 400-700 nm, which is why I
include radiant flux. Radiant flux is measured from 380-800 nm.
TMP is not connected, those numbers are arbitrary. We connect thermocouples
to our units when we are doing UL testing, but we don't do it when we shoot
stuff in the sphere."
Again, after telling him to dumb it down for us non-sphere owning folks
"
The sphere has a UL power supply as we are also a UL certified testing
facility. You can run any voltage you want, we always run on 120VAC for the
sake of consistency. In the regular data file it shows the voltage, current
and watts. In my experience this power supply always represents the worst
case scenario.
You'll see every batch of test data says 150F, that is not the temperature
in the sphere. The 150F is just what it happens to spit out if you don't
have a thermocouple plugged in. We run the fixtures outside the sphere room
to get them up to operating temp, then we quickly move them into the sphere
and only have them on long enough to capture the data point. The whole test
takes a minute or two and it's a 2 meter diameter sphere, so it doesn't
really get warm in there. If I had to guess I would say ambient is high 70s
to low 80s inside the sphere.
The inherent disadvantage of the COB is the thermal load in a very small
area. One of these guys should mount each COB on a nice phase change CPU
cooler or liquid cooler, that's about the only way to pick up some
efficiency. Or you can run twice as many COBs and run them at even lower
drive current. "
From Dan, equipment sent in
"AllCOBs tested were 36V CD bin 80 CRI (CXB3590-000N0H-CDxxG) ----- all brand new
Reflector holders were present on all COB kits
CXB distributor......all are received by us in Cree factory packaging from authorized Cree distributors and/or Cree directly - absolutely ZEROquestion of legitimacy and genuine quality
MW driver shipped was the HLG-185H-C1400B for the COBs and HLG-185H-C700A for the Oslons
Reflector used is the F13838 Angelina-XW
The component breakdown is the exact same as listed on our website.
COB and reflector holders - IDEAL 50-2300AN and 50-2303CR
Relectors - Angelina-XW F13838
Meanwell - HLG series (we used 185H-C1400B and 185H-C700A for tests)
All components used in the test were brand NEW......."
Big thanks again to both of them for doing this for us!!
Back to avoiding yellow jackets.........pure evil imo, lol
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nogod_
Well-Known Member
Ok so not cooking the cobs in an oven but still some Q's about junction temp.
Assuming the meanwell is performing to spec on 120VAC we're looking at 140lpw for a top bin cxb3590 pushing 50w. If that was my rig, I'd make damn sure that oscillating fan is blowing on those pin-sinks folks!
Tests from a semi-passively cooled maximizer should tell us whether or not lower Tj really matter all that much after we subtract losses from the driver/fans.
In any case I would be shocked to see anything north of 150lpw from the chips alone in stevens test but who knows!
Maybe this test says more about pin sinks S-ing a D than CREE blowing smoke.
Assuming the meanwell is performing to spec on 120VAC we're looking at 140lpw for a top bin cxb3590 pushing 50w. If that was my rig, I'd make damn sure that oscillating fan is blowing on those pin-sinks folks!
Tests from a semi-passively cooled maximizer should tell us whether or not lower Tj really matter all that much after we subtract losses from the driver/fans.
In any case I would be shocked to see anything north of 150lpw from the chips alone in stevens test but who knows!
Maybe this test says more about pin sinks S-ing a D than CREE blowing smoke.
Evil-Mobo
Well-Known Member
Well I hope not as I just built three lights with pin sinks lol. But mine are all VERY cool to the touch in an ambient in the high 70's/Low 80's...............and I'm pushing mine @2100ma for flower and @1750 for veg........
optzulu
Well-Known Member
Since I stared Pin fin this bad boy keeps the air around and under my plants nice and warm the top of the room is colder then the ground ! And cools 32 pin fin heat sinks.
http://greenline.nl/zwaaiventilator-plafond-55w16fb40-p-12503.html
http://greenline.nl/zwaaiventilator-plafond-55w16fb40-p-12503.html
robincnn
Well-Known Member
Did the 200w test kit have 90mm pin heatsinks ?Was it from timber ?
Not sure how tall pins are they are. Those 90mm would get hot with 50w an no air movement in sphere. that would explain the lower output.
120s would have worked better
Edit: 100-70 sinks
http://www.cooliance.com/Assets/Datasheets/CPL100-XXX-Series-Data-Sheet.pdf
Cra cra datasheet
*Power Dissipation (watts) calculation assumes an LED case temperature of 85°C and an LED input power to output power conversion efficiency of 80%.
Edit 2.0: I estimate case temp in this test was between 70C to 75C.
Not sure how tall pins are they are. Those 90mm would get hot with 50w an no air movement in sphere. that would explain the lower output.
120s would have worked better
Edit: 100-70 sinks
http://www.cooliance.com/Assets/Datasheets/CPL100-XXX-Series-Data-Sheet.pdf
Cra cra datasheet
*Power Dissipation (watts) calculation assumes an LED case temperature of 85°C and an LED input power to output power conversion efficiency of 80%.
Edit 2.0: I estimate case temp in this test was between 70C to 75C.
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PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
Nick said the passive sinks performed "pretty good", whatever that means...lol
IDK, but I smell something.................................we'll find out wed?, if Stephen's transparent==== better be , some very smart people in here
I'm waiting on the 2.8umol/j claim/test results(210lm/w, not cobs)........will see how accurate the online tools are, have my bb gun ready to shoot down the biggest crow in south philly, don't think I'll need it though.
I'll get the confirmation for you robincnn about which cooliance pin sink was used. Kicking myself about not telling dan to send an aircooled ver too, with the added watts IDK if would have made a big diff to the ppf/w#........
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PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
@robincnn about the pinsinks used in the test
"Robin is correct - CPL100-70 - on Cooliances recommendation- also offer 14070 and 160mm on higher 75w/cob kits.
Additional note - we advise all
Customers utilize an oscillating fan or alternate air flow across pins as even that minimal level of air flow has been shown to provide good temp alleviation."
I think we covered everything..........took a couple of pages instead of it being all properly summed up in my original post
"Robin is correct - CPL100-70 - on Cooliances recommendation- also offer 14070 and 160mm on higher 75w/cob kits.
Additional note - we advise all
Customers utilize an oscillating fan or alternate air flow across pins as even that minimal level of air flow has been shown to provide good temp alleviation."
I think we covered everything..........took a couple of pages instead of it being all properly summed up in my original post
The Dawg
Well-Known Member
All Hail The King@robincnn about the pinsinks used in the test
"Robin is correct - CPL100-70 - on Cooliances recommendation- also offer 14070 and 160mm on higher 75w/cob kits.
Additional note - we advise all
Customers utilize an oscillating fan or alternate air flow across pins as even that minimal level of air flow has been shown to provide good temp alleviation."
I think we covered everything..........took a couple of pages instead of it being all properly summed up in my original post
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
Did the Eagles win??????????????lol...........................fuck the kings, what does La know about hockey, all ex flyers anyways................yes, stil pissed.All Hail The King
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RainDan
Well-Known Member
I want to mention the credit for the oscillating fan idea goes to @Growmau5 and @robincnn for their tests on Cooliance heat sinks - big thanks to them for their many contributions to the community.@robincnn about the pinsinks used in the test
"Robin is correct - CPL100-70 - on Cooliances recommendation- also offer 14070 and 160mm on higher 75w/cob kits.
Additional note - we advise all
Customers utilize an oscillating fan or alternate air flow across pins as even that minimal level of air flow has been shown to provide good temp alleviation."
I think we covered everything..........took a couple of pages instead of it being all properly summed up in my original post
Additionally, big thanks to Nick at Nextlight for the invaluable sphere test data - all hugely responsible for moving the industry forward and raising the bar for companies to give the customer the best product for their money without compromise on quality.
My cxb3590 cd should, according to earlier sheets, put out 184lm/w. According to the sphere, its actually 159,3. Does that change its efficiency level also, lowering the supposed 56,6 eff to 48,1% ? (the max theoretic output I think was set to 325lm/w) Is that a correct presumption, if not, I appreciate all the info anyhows! 
churchhaze
Well-Known Member
Assuming the sphere was well calibrated and the efficiency at various test currents is lower show lower efficiency than in our "official" efficiency charts, does that suggest our calculation of LER is incorrect and that the SPD on the datasheets is only a rough estimation?
Has anyone calculated LER of SPD actually measured from a spectroradiometer or is all LER calculations based on the SPD from the datasheet? I think cree publishes their LER values and that they are very close to the values we calculate, but maybe their LER calculations were also based on the datasheets SPD data.
Is it possible that LER changes significantly (upward) when underdriven?
Has anyone calculated LER of SPD actually measured from a spectroradiometer or is all LER calculations based on the SPD from the datasheet? I think cree publishes their LER values and that they are very close to the values we calculate, but maybe their LER calculations were also based on the datasheets SPD data.
Is it possible that LER changes significantly (upward) when underdriven?