Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread

testiclees

Well-Known Member
Compost? That's expressly forbidden in Doc Buds high brix growing/kit.




I have an opinion because the implication in the thread is bullshit. Use doc buds wonder kit, or else your weed will be inferior. Just like I have an opinion on a nutrient manufacturer suggesting you need 14 different bottles of salts to grow good weed.

I stopped reading when I saw that he frowns upon compost and potassium.

You seem pretty defensive over this. What's up?
Youre all salty dude...doc himself praised all those the cannabis cup flowers he sampled. he talks about other great bud often.

real simply id say you are talking out your ass. Concerning yourself with "implications" and dismissive of accepted soil chemistry and micro biology you havent got an insight youre busy grinding your ax
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
Youre all salty dude...doc himself praised all those the cannabis cup flowers he sampled. he talks about other great bud often.

real simply id say you are talking out your ass. Concerning yourself with "implications" and dismissive of accepted soil chemistry and micro biology you havent got an insight youre busy grinding your ax
Have you read the thread? It reads like an infomercial. The guy can't go two posts without mentioning his "kit". I have no issues with folks trying to achieve high brix levels. It doesn't require a kit though.

He then advocates not using compost, or manures, or inputs high in potassium. Esentially he is saying my leaf mold/compost/rabbit manure/kelp meal mix is all wrong. I beg to differ.

image.jpg image.jpg

If I have something to share with the community I share it. I don't figure out a way to capitalize on it.
 

testiclees

Well-Known Member
those are sweet frosty bitches.

bro you can differ but you stii are mistaken. High brix indeed require an initial soil analysis, it requires whatever it takes amenment wise to bring the analysis into proper ratio. You cant use . magic you actually need a lab.

no question that you can do this on your own. i have. the attraction of yhe kit is that it lets you do it without without spending the 80$ for testing.

the kit is a good idea that grows great weed for a very reasonable investment. You might be irritated by his success but thats your personal issue buddy.
 
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hyroot

Well-Known Member
Have you read the thread? It reads like an infomercial. The guy can't go two posts without mentioning his "kit". I have no issues with folks trying to achieve high brix levels. It doesn't require a kit though.

He then advocates not using compost, or manures, or inputs high in potassium. Esentially he is saying my leaf mold/compost/rabbit manure/kelp meal mix is all wrong. I beg to differ.

View attachment 3469255 View attachment 3469256

If I have something to share with the community I share it. I don't figure out a way to capitalize on it.

He's just reiterating what doc says without actually understanding it. Say your piece and let it be. You know what works regardless. Shit I achieve high brix levels with just a cootz mix and sst's and occasional molasses and compost tea. I'm just now using bio char for the first time. That's supposed to help with brix levels and give the bacteria a home to.chill in so to speak.

The cola looks pretty dank too.
 

testiclees

Well-Known Member
He's just reiterating what doc says without actually understanding it. Say your piece and let it be. You know what works regardless. Shit I achieve high brix levels with just a cootz mix and sst's and occasional molasses and compost tea. I'm just now using bio char for the first time. That's supposed to help with brix levels and give the bacteria a home to.chill in so to speak.

The cola looks pretty dank too.
"without understanding" ? Every high brix grow i ever heard of starts with a soil test. Put up an analysis of the mess you think is producing high brix. Youre another gas bag convinced hes a gardening genius

im not reiterating lol, hy you are talking out your asshole again. Educate yourself on the priciples of the high brix method. I explained to you molasses has no place or very little in high brix just as compost is used in miniscule amounts. this isnt the teaching of Doc Bud its the priciples from the experiments in the early 20th century.

Having a refractometer doesnt make you a scientist. Do some reasearch and have a clue about the concept. You are mistaken in many of your gardening beliefs. Expect to be called a numbskull when you talk out your ass.
 
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PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
Have you read the thread? It reads like an infomercial. The guy can't go two posts without mentioning his "kit". I have no issues with folks trying to achieve high brix levels. It doesn't require a kit though.

He then advocates not using compost, or manures, or inputs high in potassium. Esentially he is saying my leaf mold/compost/rabbit manure/kelp meal mix is all wrong. I beg to differ.

View attachment 3469255 View attachment 3469256

If I have something to share with the community I share it. I don't figure out a way to capitalize on it.

Safe to say that leaf mold gets a thumbs up from you stow!?:wink:.............very nice......... rabbit manure is cheating!ha
 
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VTMi'kmaq

Well-Known Member
I really enjoy the information being thrown around in this thread, then again ive been here since its creation..........seen alot of stuff here at this thread, hell been ass deep in some of it, Is there anyway we can have the mindset of if it dont apply let that shit fly and move on? we had a good conversation going and it got stopped, can we get back on track please and thankyou?
 

4ftRoots

Well-Known Member
He's just reiterating what doc says without actually understanding it. Say your piece and let it be. You know what works regardless. Shit I achieve high brix levels with just a cootz mix and sst's and occasional molasses and compost tea. I'm just now using bio char for the first time. That's supposed to help with brix levels and give the bacteria a home to.chill in so to speak.

The cola looks pretty dank too.
I have to agree. I wanted to start with the Hi brix kit after switching from bottles but It was like switching from one company to another. High brix is not a challenge. After switching to ROLS I can leave my garden for days and come back and they look more healthy than when I left. With high brix you have to be there everyday like a scientist. Not how plants are grown.
 

4ftRoots

Well-Known Member
those are sweet frosty bitches.

bro you can differ but you stii are mistaken. High brix indeed require an initial soil analysis, it requires whatever it takes amenment wise to bring the analysis into proper ratio. You cant use . magic you actually need a lab.

no question that you can do this on your own. i have. the attraction of yhe kit is that it lets you do it without without spending the 80$ for testing.

the kit is a good idea that grows great weed for a very reasonable investment. You might be irritated by his success but thats your personal issue buddy.
I have a hard time believing this since plants dictate what they want when they want it. I do soil tests every other grow or three and my soil is pretty out of whack nutrient wise. Never had a problem and I still topdress with a shit ton of worm castings and nutrients every 4 weeks in flower. They love it and have a shiny aura. High brix is cool but is complicated. Health is what makes plants yield better and have a higher shelf life. I also grow veggies and I can say that a large amount of silica for the growing plant helps the fruits last months. They even seem more filling. Never actually done a high brix grow but I have looked into the bottles. Nothing special you can't do with even an FPE.
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
those are sweet frosty bitches.

bro you can differ but you stii are mistaken. High brix indeed require an initial soil analysis, it requires whatever it takes amenment wise to bring the analysis into proper ratio. You cant use . magic you actually need a lab.

no question that you can do this on your own. i have. the attraction of yhe kit is that it lets you do it without without spending the 80$ for testing.

the kit is a good idea that grows great weed for a very reasonable investment. You might be irritated by his success but thats your personal issue buddy.
That's a reasonable post, and I don't entirely disagree. Growing high brix plants is a worthwhile goal. I'm not debating the science with you.

I'm not irritated by his success. I simply look at it as someone trying to cash in. Like I said earlier, nothing wrong with that per se, but I'd prefer to see this info freely shared instead of having people line his pockets in order to get the results.
 

testiclees

Well-Known Member
I have to agree. I wanted to start with the Hi brix kit after switching from bottles but It was like switching from one company to another. High brix is not a challenge. After switching to ROLS I can leave my garden for days and come back and they look more healthy than when I left. With high brix you have to be there everyday like a scientist. Not how plants are grown.
you dont bro. like the other folks here you dont know wtf youre talking about when it comes to high brix.

Sure there are many, many ways to grow great plants. No one is suggesting otherwise. However more opinions with Zero experience and even less research or understanding amounts to nothing more than ignorant bullshit. youre in good company on this thread of dry lab experts.
 
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testiclees

Well-Known Member
That's a reasonable post, and I don't entirely disagree. Growing high brix plants is a worthwhile goal. I'm not debating the science with you.

I'm not irritated by his success. I simply look at it as someone trying to cash in. Like I said earlier, nothing wrong with that per se, but I'd prefer to see this info freely shared instead of having people line his pockets in order to get the results.
cool i got you.

docs business idea is that its cheaper to use his gear than it is to start from scratch yourself.. He actually describes everything you need to know if youwanna take advantage of his research and testing. He shared freely even after the expense of a slew of soil tests. I see your point but i feel doc is legit and the results are often exceptional.
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
you dont bro. like the other folks here you dont know wtf youre talking about when it comes to high brix.

Sure there are many, many ways to grow great plants. No one is suggesting otherwise. However more opinions with Zero experience and even less research or understanding amounts to nothing more than ignorant bullshit. youre in good company with hyroot and stow.
Well, lets see some of your plants. Drop some info. I'm always down to learn.

Leave the butt hurt at the door though. I don't see why you have your undies so twisted over this.
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
From what I understand high brix soil is built with minerals in mind. High in Ca as well. Coots recipe calls for 4 cups of minerals/rock dust per cf, and upwards of 1 cup per cf of something high in calcium carbonate like oyster shell flower. People find that the soil gets better with time, so I suspect that due to the slow rate at which minerals are processed by soil microbes people are finding better results in successive generations. This is where the "no compost" thing makes me scratch my head. Wouldn't the microbes (and humus for other reasons) from compost be beneficial in this regard?

Also, why is potassium frowned upon? IMO kelp meal is one of the best amendments there is.
 

Joedank

Well-Known Member
From what I understand high brix soil is built with minerals in mind. High in Ca as well. Coots recipe calls for 4 cups of minerals/rock dust per cf, and upwards of 1 cup per cf of something high in calcium carbonate like oyster shell flower. People find that the soil gets better with time, so I suspect that due to the slow rate at which minerals are processed by soil microbes people are finding better results in successive generations. This is where the "no compost" thing makes me scratch my head. Wouldn't the microbes (and humus for other reasons) from compost be beneficial in this regard?

Also, why is potassium frowned upon? IMO kelp meal is one of the best amendments there is.
this is the little i have gleaned . i was really into albrecht soil and high brix in 2009 is started with the"brix mix" from peaceful valley organics.
potash has a complex role in the rizosphere but not a large one like we think . here is a quote that sums it up nicely.
FIRST STORY

International Ag Labs is a member of the Manure Analysis Proficiency Program (MAP) so naturally we test our fair share of manure. We also have a lot of customers who compost manure and so we also regularly test compost. It is interesting that when manure is tested for NPK the analysis, depending on the type of manure, averages somewhere around a 1-1-1. That is 1% Nitrogen, 1% phosphate, and 1% potash. When we test compost on average, we also find 1-1-1. This naturally leads me to an important question for which I have no answer. If manure starts out as a 1-1-1 analysis and it is composted somewhere between 50-60% of the volume of compost disappears during the composting process. If the resulting compost analyzes at 1-1-1 then where did all the P & K go?

It is easy to understand that a fair amount of the nitrogen can be lost to the atmosphere but what about the P and K? They don’t volatilize into the air and if the compost was not waterlogged and had some clay added at the beginning of the process very little would be lost through leaching. This is a puzzling question without a clear answer. Here is my speculation: The process of composting manure must radically change the intrinsic properties of compost such that an NPK (manure) analysis does not reflect the true P & K value of compost.

SECOND STORY

At the same time I was pondering this anomaly International Ag Labs had a dealer, Duane Headings, who was questioning the validity of a different lab’s potassium reading on their soil test. Consequently he began splitting soil samples and sending half to us. A lot of the soils he sampled were fields or gardens that had been receiving high levels of compost for several years. The other lab results were consistently coming back showing potassium on the high side of adequate but not excessive. Test results from International Ag Labs couldn’t be more striking: On the Morgan test the potassium levels were through the roof. In fact many samples showed more potassium available than calcium. This obvious discrepancy lead to a phone call from Duane and we began comparing notes.

The Bottom Line Is This
Compost, in spite of it’s seemingly low NPK analysis, is a very powerful supplier of potassium. We also learned that not all soil tests can pick up potassium equally—especially if it is being supplied through compost.

With this information in hand we began looking closely at gardens and market gardens that had high levels of compost applied over several years. We consistently found the same pattern: very high potassium, generally high levels of phosphorous and extremely low levels of available calcium. We then asked these same gardeners how their garden was doing. The answers were telling: A lot of bug pressure – It used to be much better – Really poor tasting food – Very low brix levels.

This research lead International Ag Labs to promulgate two new quality indicators based off our soil tests: the calcium-potassium ratio and the calcium-phosphorous ratio. Both should be around 18:1. I have found that if the calcium to potassium ratio is narrow, say at 3:1 or less it is a sure indicator that the garden will not be producing high brix foods until the ratio is widened. Gardens with narrow ratios can still produce abundantly but the food will not be nutrient-dense and the flavor will leave a lot to be desired. While Dr. Reams did not specifically give this ratio he did teach the principle and it is from his desired levels that these ratios are derived.

Interestingly, Dr. Albrecht was quite familiar with this concept and wrote about it. His insight can be found in volume 3 of the Albrecht Papers on page 20. I quote:

DR. ALBRECHT

The significant truth that brings soil fertility into control of the composition of our food, and therefore our health, comes out of the facts that in soils under construction by the limited climatic forces, or those with a wide calcium-potassium ratio, proteinaceous and mineral-rich crops and foods as well as carbonaceous ones are possible, and that in soils under destruction by excessive climate forces, or those with a narrow calcium-potassium ratio, protein production is not so common while production mainly of carbohydrates by crops is almost universal.

In the paragraphs following Dr. Albrecht goes on to show that soils with a richer supply of calcium also produce foods with greater minerals, more proteins, and ultimately much better health to the consumers.
 

Midwest Weedist

Well-Known Member
From what I understand high brix soil is built with minerals in mind. High in Ca as well. Coots recipe calls for 4 cups of minerals/rock dust per cf, and upwards of 1 cup per cf of something high in calcium carbonate like oyster shell flower. People find that the soil gets better with time, so I suspect that due to the slow rate at which minerals are processed by soil microbes people are finding better results in successive generations. This is where the "no compost" thing makes me scratch my head. Wouldn't the microbes (and humus for other reasons) from compost be beneficial in this regard?

Also, why is potassium frowned upon? IMO kelp meal is one of the best amendments there is.
Maybe I'm an idiot, but (vermi)compost and kelp are my two gardening staples, for both indoor/outdoor, cannabis, veggies, herbs, ornaments, etc.

I'm not well read up on high brix growing but what's the long-term benefits of it? What would carry a lower overhead and operating cost, running a high brix system or a notill?

To those who have experience or intimate knowledge on high brix growing, would it be fair to say that the goal is high yield? Or is there more to it?
Because if it's just about chasing numbers then I think it's only applicable to those who are after that bottom line. Maybe I'm missing the whole point, but if I'm not, it just seems to me another way to try and one-up mother nature and make a buck selling it in the process.
 
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Scotch089

Well-Known Member
The big goal is more mineral content/vitamins= more flavor, better nutritional value. Even just blackstrap molasses is good for high brix gardening. I feel like rols and high brix is pretty damn close to the same page. Just one is a deeper level than the other.

I am curious myself that- why not use kelp meal? (P?) And what the difference in upkeep would be vs rols? I assumed the same reamendments in rols would eventually up my brix level... in turn be "technically" brix gardening.

I'm gray too..
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
this is the little i have gleaned . i was really into albrecht soil and high brix in 2009 is started with the"brix mix" from peaceful valley organics.
potash has a complex role in the rizosphere but not a large one like we think . here is a quote that sums it up nicely.
FIRST STORY

International Ag Labs is a member of the Manure Analysis Proficiency Program (MAP) so naturally we test our fair share of manure. We also have a lot of customers who compost manure and so we also regularly test compost. It is interesting that when manure is tested for NPK the analysis, depending on the type of manure, averages somewhere around a 1-1-1. That is 1% Nitrogen, 1% phosphate, and 1% potash. When we test compost on average, we also find 1-1-1. This naturally leads me to an important question for which I have no answer. If manure starts out as a 1-1-1 analysis and it is composted somewhere between 50-60% of the volume of compost disappears during the composting process. If the resulting compost analyzes at 1-1-1 then where did all the P & K go?

It is easy to understand that a fair amount of the nitrogen can be lost to the atmosphere but what about the P and K? They don’t volatilize into the air and if the compost was not waterlogged and had some clay added at the beginning of the process very little would be lost through leaching. This is a puzzling question without a clear answer. Here is my speculation: The process of composting manure must radically change the intrinsic properties of compost such that an NPK (manure) analysis does not reflect the true P & K value of compost.

SECOND STORY

At the same time I was pondering this anomaly International Ag Labs had a dealer, Duane Headings, who was questioning the validity of a different lab’s potassium reading on their soil test. Consequently he began splitting soil samples and sending half to us. A lot of the soils he sampled were fields or gardens that had been receiving high levels of compost for several years. The other lab results were consistently coming back showing potassium on the high side of adequate but not excessive. Test results from International Ag Labs couldn’t be more striking: On the Morgan test the potassium levels were through the roof. In fact many samples showed more potassium available than calcium. This obvious discrepancy lead to a phone call from Duane and we began comparing notes.

The Bottom Line Is This
Compost, in spite of it’s seemingly low NPK analysis, is a very powerful supplier of potassium. We also learned that not all soil tests can pick up potassium equally—especially if it is being supplied through compost.

With this information in hand we began looking closely at gardens and market gardens that had high levels of compost applied over several years. We consistently found the same pattern: very high potassium, generally high levels of phosphorous and extremely low levels of available calcium. We then asked these same gardeners how their garden was doing. The answers were telling: A lot of bug pressure – It used to be much better – Really poor tasting food – Very low brix levels.

This research lead International Ag Labs to promulgate two new quality indicators based off our soil tests: the calcium-potassium ratio and the calcium-phosphorous ratio. Both should be around 18:1. I have found that if the calcium to potassium ratio is narrow, say at 3:1 or less it is a sure indicator that the garden will not be producing high brix foods until the ratio is widened. Gardens with narrow ratios can still produce abundantly but the food will not be nutrient-dense and the flavor will leave a lot to be desired. While Dr. Reams did not specifically give this ratio he did teach the principle and it is from his desired levels that these ratios are derived.

Interestingly, Dr. Albrecht was quite familiar with this concept and wrote about it. His insight can be found in volume 3 of the Albrecht Papers on page 20. I quote:

DR. ALBRECHT

The significant truth that brings soil fertility into control of the composition of our food, and therefore our health, comes out of the facts that in soils under construction by the limited climatic forces, or those with a wide calcium-potassium ratio, proteinaceous and mineral-rich crops and foods as well as carbonaceous ones are possible, and that in soils under destruction by excessive climate forces, or those with a narrow calcium-potassium ratio, protein production is not so common while production mainly of carbohydrates by crops is almost universal.

In the paragraphs following Dr. Albrecht goes on to show that soils with a richer supply of calcium also produce foods with greater minerals, more proteins, and ultimately much better health to the consumers.
Interesting. So if I'm understanding this, (thermophilic?)compost could come with a high ratio of potassium, and not enough calcium, which would lead to low brix levels, and food that is not nutrient dense. Does this apply to vermicompost too? I would guess not to the same degree as worm "slime" is Ca rich.


Maybe I'm an idiot, but (vermi)compost and kelp are my two gardening staples, for both indoor/outdoor, cannabis, veggies, herbs, ornaments, etc.

I'm not well read up on high brix growing but what's the long-term benefits of it? What would carry a lower overhead and operating cost, running a high brix system or a notill?

To those who have experience or intimate knowledge on high brix growing, would it be fair to say that the goal is high yield? Or is there more to it?
Because if it's just about chasing numbers then I think it's only applicable to those who are after that bottom line. Maybe I'm missing the whole point, but if I'm not, it just seems to me another way to try and one-up mother nature and make a buck selling in the process.
Brix levels are essentially a measurement of dissolved solids. High brix readings are indicative of nutrient rich produce, and in the case of marijuana I gather it's terpene/cannabinoid rich product.

I wouldn't call it a pointless goal, but I'm pretty certain it's not as complicated as some would have us believe to accomplish. Lot's of rock dusts, high levels of Ca, vermicompost instead of thermophilic compost, and innoculating your root zone with mycorrhizal fungi would be a good starting point. I'm still not completely sure why potassium is a bad thing, but I'm hoping testiclees can chime in on that...
 

testiclees

Well-Known Member
From what I understand high brix soil is built with minerals in mind. High in Ca as well. Coots recipe calls for 4 cups of minerals/rock dust per cf, and upwards of 1 cup per cf of something high in calcium carbonate like oyster shell flower. People find that the soil gets better with time, so I suspect that due to the slow rate at which minerals are processed by soil microbes people are finding better results in successive generations. This is where the "no compost" thing makes me scratch my head. Wouldn't the microbes (and humus for other reasons) from compost be beneficial in this regard?

Also, why is potassium frowned upon? IMO kelp meal is one of the best amendments there is.
im not an expert on the sciece. K is an issue because it affects the uptake of Ca. Overly high organic matter is a problem with CEC.

Kelp meal is used to a degree but depends on the soil situation. There is kelp meal in the amendment i use.

Those recommendations for minerals cited above are way high according to soil samples ive seen. The total amount of minerals added to about 4cu ft of base (promix) is less than 4 cups including cacium carbonate.

The dynamic between the foliar applications and the soil microbes is a critical part of the nutrition regimen. The soil microbes are in sync with the exudates through the minerals and sugars present the foliar products. When your soil biology is cranking and you apply the brix foliar you see a reaction with the quickness. I was really striking when i applied it to my cayenne plants. In about 2days they were throwing flowers all over the place. The blooms all became fruit and i got crazy peppers up in here.

Also another idea is that huge yields dont equal great quality especially w produce but also w cannabis. Soils that are continuosly enriched with compost may deliver big tomatoes but not likely high nutrition tomatoes. Im not gonna get into that but i can say that high brix produce definitely is more flavorful and more desirable to chefs. I interact with chefs, farmers and farmers markets all the time in my business.
Higher minersls and higher sugars tastes amazingly different in anything from cauliflower to boysenberries.
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
im not an expert on the sciece. K is an issue because it affects the uptake of Ca. Overly high organic matter is a problem with CEC.

Kelp meal is used to a degree but depends on the soil situation. There is kelp meal in the amendment i use.

Those recommendations for minerals cited above are way high according to soil samples ive seen. The total amount of minerals added to about 4cu ft of base (promix) is less than 4 cups including cacium carbonate.

The dynamic between the foliar applications and the soil microbes is a critical part of the nutrition regimen. The soil microbes are in sync with the exudates through the minerals and sugars present the foliar products. When your soil biology is cranking and you apply the brix foliar you see a reaction with the quickness. I was really striking when i applied it to my cayenne plants. In about 2days they were throwing flowers all over the place. The blooms all became fruit and i got crazy peppers up in here.

Also another idea is that huge yields dont equal great quality especially w produce but also w cannabis. Soils that are continuosly enriched with compost may deliver big tomatoes but not likely high nutrition tomatoes. Im not gonna get into that but i can say that high brix produce definitely is more flavorful and more desirable to chefs. I interact with chefs, farmers and farmers markets all the time in my business.
Higher minersls and higher sugars tastes amazingly different in anything from cauliflower to boysenberries.

Interesting. Being that Potassium and Calcium are both Cations this makes sense. I don't purposely add a ton of K so I've never really considered the antagonism between the two.
 
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