Why do HID lights have better penetration?

[alesh]

They used to claim 60lm/W on the 400 model, I would estimate 25% efficiency. But they may have changed the spectrum since then and according to their new data sheet, the Indagrow 420 emits 533 umol/s and draws 420W. Assuming 90% efficient electronic ballast that is 378 dissipation W. So output of the bulb itself is about 1.4umol/s/ dissipation W, much higher than I would have expected from a fluoro. We don't have the QER of the SPD curve so we cannot translate that into efficiency but if we give them the benefit of the doubt and assume 30% efficiency, that would be about 4.67umol/s/ PAR W. Alesh may be able to give a better estimate on this SPD.
View attachment 3399578

So with those assumptions made, Indagrow 420 in a 4X4:
378 W * .3 = 113 PAR W
* .7 reflector loss = 79 PAR W (reflector penalty may be even worse in practice)
79/16 = 4.94 PAR W/ft²
4.94 * 4.66 umol/s/W = 23
23 * 10.7 = 246 PPFD averaged

By adding the 40W pontoon, assuming the deep reds are running cool and 30% efficient, that adds 12 PAR W. Assuming they are using 90% efficient lenses that adds .675 PAR W/ft², bringing it up to 5.6 PAR W/ft². @alesh do you have an estimate for umol/s/PAR W of deep red LEDs?

In summary, I am a big fan of intensity and I would not recommend the IG420 for a 4X4, but if you already have one, rock it

LER for IndaGro is around 235lm/W.

 

[churchhaze]

What is the luminous efficacy of source for inda gro-420-PAR? I can't seem to find anything about lumens on their website to calculate efficiency, and thus umol/J dissipated.

 

[churchhaze]

Is it 80lm/W? That would make efficiency 34% and 1.56umol/J dissipated.. Still haven't found an official lumen rating.

 

[OGEvilgenius]

That, unfortunately, I do not know. However, I think that high-CRI 3000K LED spectrum is very close to what I'd call ideal. These are usually slightly less efficient but the top bin high-CRI CXB3590s could be very well the best grow light (IMHO) when driven soft enough. Once it's available though.
You mean these plasma lights?

Those are the ones. Pretty expensive tech. Seems promising though. Certainly they do a nice job on replicating a large part of the suns visible spectrum as well as parts just outside our range depending on the model (41.02 has UVB).

 

[alesh]

Those are the ones. Pretty expensive tech. Seems promising though. Certainly they do a nice job on replicating a large part of the suns visible spectrum as well as parts just outside our range depending on the model (41.02 has UVB).

At 1.11 umol/J, I would stay far from them.

 

[AquariusPanta]

Those are the ones. Pretty expensive tech. Seems promising though. Certainly they do a nice job on replicating a large part of the suns visible spectrum as well as parts just outside our range depending on the model (41.02 has UVB).

Look, it's evident you REALLY wanna play with some UVB. With COBS, you're not going to really need UVB because LEDS are known and have been proven to give better resin coatings when properly used to grow marijuana.

So if that is what you're after, rest assured your buds will look so dandy that you'll wonder if Kris Kringle repeatedly broke into your grow room and powered-coated your buds with multiple sugary-coatings. Mmmm..sugary resin.

I was actually trying multiple things last fall with a certain 'blue' grow of mine. I implemented COBS (Vero 18 ) for the first time, as well as 730nm stars, and more importantly, UVB bulbs.

Instead of UVB LED stars, I went ahead and chose to buy a few ReptileSun UVB CFL bulbs. The trick with UVB is that you don't want to leave the UVB on all day long or otherwise bad things are supposedly to take place. I can't prove this to be true or false but there is logic behind the theory, if you read into UV.

Anyways, if you're interested in the bulbs, here is a link.

 

[OneHitDone]

Is it 80lm/W? That would make efficiency 34% and 1.56umol/J dissipated.. Still haven't found an official lumen rating.

I believe those numbers are in this document?

http://www.inda-gro.com/IG/sites/default/files/pdf/plant-lighting-resource/1-Measuring Plant Light with Technical Comparisons.pdf

Based on what is published there what size area do you guys believe is appropriate for covering with the 420/pontoon for flowering?

 

[apoulin]

Look, it's evident you REALLY wanna play with some UVB. With COBS, you're not going to really need UVB becauseI LEDS are known and have been proven to give better resin coatings when properly used to grow marijuana.

So if that is what you're after, rest assured your buds will look so dandy that you'll wonder if Kris Kringle repeatedly broke into your grow room and powered-coated your buds with multiple sugary-coatings. Mmmm..sugary resin.

I was actually trying multiple things last fall with a certain 'blue' grow of mine. I implemented COBS (Vero 18 ) for the first time, as well as 730nm stars, and more importantly, UVB bulbs.

Instead of UVB LED stars, I went ahead and chose to buy a few ReptileSun UVB CFL bulbs. The trick with UVB is that you don't want to leave the UVB on all day long or otherwise bad things are supposedly to take place. I can't prove this to be true or false but there is logic behind the theory, if you read into UV.

Anyways, if you're interested in the bulbs, here is a link.

I have built a few COB lights now and like every other grower I was reading about adding UVB, knowing that my COBS didn't contain this spectrum.
I went and purchased a 24" reptile light as well, I have it hooked up to my main light timer. However I keep it turned OFF and will go in and turn it on for about 10 mins during the day when I can, then the last hour of lights on. I too was weary of the degradation issues caused by constant UVB light.

The plants have been getting super sticky and even moving the stems to check everything out gets my hands so sticky I can stick a lighter to my finger lol

I can't upload anything right now, but I think they look pretty

 

[SupraSPL]

Thanks @alesh ! A lower LER than I expected. So if we go by their claim umol/S, we get: 1.4/4.59 = 30.5% efficient. But if we go by their lumen data 59lumen/W / 235 LER = 25% efficiency. So if we average it and go with 28% efficient, here is where we are:

Indagrow 420 in a 4X4 (without pontoon)
378W * .28 = 106 PAR W
106 * .7 reflector loss = 74 PAR W (reflector penalty may be higher in practice)
74/16 = 4.63 PAR W/ft²
4.63 * 4.59 umol/s/W = 21.25
21.25 * 10.7 = 227.4 PPFD averaged

Indagrow 40W pontoon
36W * .3 = 10.8 PAR W
10.8 * .9 lens loss = 9.7 PAR W
9.7/16 = .61 PAR W/ft²
.61 * 5.5 umol/s/W = 3.36
3.36 * 10.7 = 35.9 PPFD averaged

Supra, do you possibly have any info how the inda-gro 420 with pontoon specs out in comparison?

So to answer your question:

Indagrow 420 in a 4X4 with pontoon:
227+35.9 = 263 PPFD averaged

Indagrow 420 in a 3X3 with pontoon:
468 PPFD averaged

 

[SupraSPL]

I did test UVB a few times in the past using LED + reptile bulb. There was no miraculous increase in cannabinoids versus straight LED. I was growing the same varieties as some of my friends were running under straight HPS and none of their customers were complaining about the potency of those cuts under straight HPS.

So I asked myself why am I dealing this extra gadgetry hanging in my canopy and wasting Watts. On top of that, there was a noticeable increase in cannabinoids and terpenes comparing the same varieties under HPS and LED. So I attributed that to the 450nm blue which is included in white COBs. In other words, with straight LED you may be able to get the best of both worlds, the trich increase and the high efficiency, without the gadgetry (hard to spread UVB into your whole canopy evenly and with good intensity).

That said I very much encourage experimentation and I am open to the possibility of being wrong, so by all means if you are convinced about UVB don't let my experience discourage you, keep testing and sharing info

 

[Positivity]

Doing a comparison with and without uvb right now. I'll have a pretty good idea of whether i prefer it or not soon. Its good either way, no doubt..

 

[medicinehuman]

Doing a comparison with and without uvb right now. I'll have a pretty good idea of whether i prefer it or not soon. Its good either way, no doubt..

My feeling exactly, I can live with it or without. I notice it's sooner or later, a little less or a little more.

 

[TheChemist77]

I agree it is no excuse, significant benefit to organizing. I was just pointing out that there is a small upside to the fact that we have not done it yet. Maybe a wiki that can be updated would work well

As far as what has changed in the last year or so, I am thinking about COB mounting methods, which holders match up with reflectors, whether to use reflectors or lenses, new CXB models, new Vero models etc. There have been changes in heatsink recommendations, high voltage series drivers, CPU cooler options, remote drivers vs on board drivers etc. Here is something new I have been working on.

My current driver boards are disaster zones. This new design will replace 32 individual drivers and can change from 120V to 240V on the fly. It will increase driver efficiency from 89-90% to 94%. Dimmable and each driver can be switched off individually so you can work on that string while the others are still on.
View attachment 3399651

i can not build diyled..im not good w that stuff.. however my offer stands,, build one for a 4x4 area ill pay u for expenses and time building, ill make it worth ur wile,promise!! i just dont understand y diy guys can build great leds wile the companies selling them can not build one as good as u diyers?? doesnt make sence...thess companies are suppose to be at the cutting edge of leds for growing and i can not buy one that works as well as one built in a persons basement!!!

 

[TheChemist77]

I will build a lamp/s for you. I'm currently prototyping 200 and 300 watt fan cooled enclosures. If you do a side by side and mention where they came from I will sell them to you for cost plus shipping. It would be 2 300 watt units, total input of 645 watts. Cost to me is about $500 each, CXB3070s @ 1.4A though I could do V29s @ 2.1A for close to $350 each. I haven't parted the V29 out so don't quote me but it would be close.

Here's my first 200w unit, sold already.

Edit: With ballast the 600 -vs- 600 would be an almost exact watt for watt grow off. A lot of people would like to see that happen.

thank u,, 1k for 2 led lights... will u stand behind them and if they can not produce equal to or better than a 600 watt hps give me money back on return of ur led?? i will do a post with a 4x4 compare weekly pics, everything same but light, and yes i will make sure to let everyone know who built the leds and give full credit to u if they perform better than my 600 watt hps with cheap plantmax bulbs..i only say the bulb type because ive run 100 dollar bulbs and the 20 dollar plantmax has performed just as well if not better replacing bulbs every 8 months...please go directly to my profile to hatch out details and adresses...

 

[TheChemist77]

thank u,, 1k for 2 led lights... will u stand behind them and if they can not produce equal to or better than a 600 watt hps give me money back on return of ur led?? i will do a post with a 4x4 compare weekly pics, everything same but light, and yes i will make sure to let everyone know who built the leds and give full credit to u if they perform better than my 600 watt hps with cheap plantmax bulbs..i only say the bulb type because ive run 100 dollar bulbs and the 20 dollar plantmax has performed just as well if not better replacing bulbs every 8 months...please go directly to my profile to hatch out details and adresses...

please let me know how u would like the placement of ur leds, how far apart, over canopy height etc...

 

[SupraSPL]

i can not build diyled..im not good w that stuff.. however my offer stands,, build one for a 4x4 area ill pay u for expenses and time building, ill make it worth ur wile,promise!! i just dont understand y diy guys can build great leds wile the companies selling them can not build one as good as u diyers?? doesnt make sence...thess companies are suppose to be at the cutting edge of leds for growing and i can not buy one that works as well as one built in a persons basement!!!

You have a good point there. In truth, when it comes to economy COB lamps, the manufacturers have me beat already. I would probably charge $1300 for the lamp I mentioned, using Mean Well drivers. Here is how it compares:

Optic Vero 360 X 2, for a 4X4 canopy:
(8 ) Vero 29 4K @ 2.1A = 79W * 8 = 632W @ 40.8% efficient = 258 PAR W emitted
258 * .9 lens losses = 232 PAR W in canopy
232/16 = 14.5 PAR W/ft²
14.5 * 4.73 umol/s/W = 68.6
68.6 * 10.7 = 734 PPFD
Cost $1440 or $6.20/PAR W in the canopy

My design, 600W in a 4X4, with 90° lenses + Mean Well dimmable
(6) Vero29 2.0 4K @ 2.55A = 610W
610 * .385 = 235 PAR W
235 * .9 lens losses = 211 PAR W
211/16 = 13.2 PAR W/ft²
13.2 * 4.82 umol/s/W = 63.7
63.7 * 10.7 = 681 PPFD averaged
Cost $1300 = $6.16/PAR W in the canopy

My design would have better spread, remote drivers and dimmable. The optic design would be easier to install and higher intensity. For a DiYer that built their own, it would cost about $3.31/PAR W in the canopy. The amount of labor involved will surprise you, especially for a first build. That is the reason DIYers can beat the commercial prices. Ideal for retirees or tinkerers, but if you are busy working and making good money, probably cheaper to buy it rather than build it.

On the other hand if you are looking for something unusual in the build such as very high efficiency (up to 59%), you would have to DiY or have it custom made.

 

[SupraSPL]

thank u,, 1k for 2 led lights...

I think he was referring to parts cost, not including labor

 

[Positivity]

I think a important point for any one new to building things..

You don't have to build it in one day. I work full time among many other hobbies personally

My process has been simplified to the point I completely take my time.

One day I prepare a work area

Next day drill a few holes

Next day install a few parts..etc

Point is, it doesn't have to be a monster project. In fact anytime I think of commercial I get stressed out thinking of how I'll have to build it... Not want to build it.

Just something for people to think about if they are on the fence and not sure whether to build or not

 

[AquariusPanta]

I think a important point for any one new to building things..

You don't have to build it in one day. I work full time among many other hobbies personally

My process has been simplified to the point I completely take my time.

One day I prepare a work area

Next day drill a few holes

Next day install a few parts..etc

Point is, it doesn't have to be a monster project. In fact anytime I think of commercial I get stressed out thinking of how I'll have to build it... Not want to build it.

Just something for people to think about if they are on the fence and not sure whether to build or not

I'm the same way with my builds. My first prototype (the creation that took place after the Crowns) required ~60 hours of labor. The second that I'm working on, which is a much better version, will take no more than 20 hours to finish. This is because the routine gradually becomes easier as one gains experience and familiarity.

 

[Greengenes707]

I have been charging ~1500$ for 600w super panels(12 cxb3070 at 1400ma). Based on if using reflectors, housings, and other "extras". No options on drivers...they get meanwell hlg's unless they personally ask. Its really hard to offer a truly better product while still under selling the current best in productions panels. But they have to commit to things for long term. I can implement the newest as soon as its available.

They get bulk pricing...but pay overhead
I don't pay overhead...but I don't get good bulk deals.

EDIT: I'm not throwing my hat in the ring for this build. Just talking cost for custome panels.