Light ???

[Sativied]

I may try the 4200k bulbs at some point, I don't need it for vegging but if you were vegging/flowering under the same light and wanted to run a single bulb, I think the 4200k would be the one to use.

I just looked up a post from that whazzup guy I mentioned a couple of times - will roughly translate some comments he made about the CMH (they tested them years ago). I'm sure this guy like all humans makes mistakes, but he's a real horticulture lighting expert and mj grower/breeder.

Note this is about the CDM315... unless mentioned otherwise.

"It is already a much better lamp than an MH because it's more stable in several ways and the spectrum is also much better than MH"

"Do not expect UV from this lamp, the glass is UV-block." (based on the pdf above, it's still double that of hps, but not like T5... could be difference with elite series or something)

"Initially phillips did not plan to release the bulb in europe because the 942 (4200K) gives a better spectrum."

"To get the same amount of micromoles as a 1000watt you need 4 of them, which makes the plasma still interesting."

"Tests comparing the CDM/HPS to HPS+plasma showed the latter produced better quality" (could be entire subjective...)

"Plasma/HPS is a much cooler option" (temps, although I have to say those plasma looking very cool.

"It's not philips who says it's a plasma replacer, but a competitor who doesn't sell plasma" (he does mention it can be used as a cheaper alternative)

"Micromole-wise, umol/W, the elite agro wins, 1.9umol opposed to 1.1 for the plasma"

"In short, interesting for small spaces, I would use the (somewhat less efficient) 942 for veg or supplemental lighting" (phillips however specifically put more red in the agro versions).

"It will never become the primary light" (somewhat grabbed out of context, it may not be true for improved versions).

I have apart from the hood a 400w and a 600w set, magnetic ballasts, I could easily turn on that 400watt for some hours a day... Need to get new hps first and a shit load of other things... expensive hobby if you don't sell the harvest.

 

[GroErr]

It's difficult to get specifics/data or real world tests on the Elite Ago's. But after using them for a few rounds if I had to start again from scratch, I'd go 2 of the Elite Ago's 315's 3100k's again vs. a 1k hps. The one quote I'd agree on is imo they're a better option for smaller spaces, particularly short spaces where you don't have the room/height to dissipate or extract the heat from hps. If I threw a 1000w hps in my flower room, it would be the only light I could have in there, loosing a lot of flexibility. Not worth it imo and questionable as I think 2 of the 315's can match a 1000w hps if you're growing for numbers. Never mind the power and equipment savings as I don't have to worry about heat. 4" intake, 4" exhaust both running between the lowest and 1/3rd throttle, and if I wanted to I could run an additional 200w of LED's in that room and still manage the heat.

To satisfy my curiosity and a personal challenge, I have a round coming up in about 2 weeks where I'll be pushing 1x Elite Agro 315w to about 3x4' and going for a pound with some Blue Dream's. Now that would be efficient, the equivalent of ~3 lbs from a 1000w hps. Cheers.

 

[UncleBuck]

I want reading into the science too much. A break during the day to allow heat to dissipate is the reason I jumped to accept it.

a gentle breeze from an oscillating fan, and exhaust vent, and climate control do the exact same. plus the plants get to continue photosynthesis.

 

[a mongo frog]

a gentle breeze from an oscillating fan, and exhaust vent, and climate control do the exact same. plus the plants get to continue photosynthesis.

pretty good point right here. could work, who knows...

 

[Uncle Ben]

Sorry about the hijack but that really is interesting Sativied. If those prices are in USD, your wages must also be ultra low too.

 

[UncleBuck]

pretty good point right here. could work, who knows...

it somehow puts food on my table.

maybe i'm learning what makes a plant tick.

 

[Sativied]

Sorry about the hijack but that really is interesting Sativied. If those prices are in USD, your wages must also be ultra low too.

On the very contrary. Students working in the greenhouse industry here already get paid $10 per hour, in the US the minimum for adults is $7-ish dollar according to a quick google search. Not only are the wages not low, employees are generally expensive because of taxes and insurances (doubling the cost of the wage or more).

In Luxembourg (small country close to NL, richest country in Europe) and perhaps Norway (where they've been wiser with the gas reserves than we and everyone could on average be a millionaire) are the minimum wages higher than in NL. Belgium is similar, Germany too, UK lower but close enough and the rest... is up to 5 times lower. Since the EU, we get a lot of season workers form other european countries who gladly do some labor for our minimum wages. Many of the kids who wanted to be farmer here walk in suits or white coats.

Well... labor... Most of the time there are surprisingly few employees working in a greenhouse.

Some don't even have to walk:




Search noord tomaten on youtube. Videos showing what seems to be an entire year, sometimes a week per video, sometimes multiple weeks.

Week 52:

Week 1 (or 'a' week).

Those people make more than someone at the MacDonalds or a cashier or call center employee etc.

 

[Sativied]

The medium in those videos is rockwool starter blocks on Mapito slabs, that's actually the common hydro method for mj grows too:

 

[Uncle Ben]

Amazing photos/videos, and something to be really proud of.

 

[Sativied]

An Economic Analysis of Greenhouse Lighting - LED vs HPS

http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/pub__8264567.pdf
From uni in Utah. Just skimmed through it, looks good.



As usual gavita nearly as good as phillips.*

http://www.epapillon.com/index.php/fixtures/d-papillon CMH fixtures.

Ugly things...






Not suitable for noobs without reflective walls.

"In short, interesting for small spaces, I would use the (somewhat less efficient) 942 for veg or supplemental lighting" (phillips however specifically put more red in the agro versions).

Light source:
Luminous flux : 36,000 lumen
PPF 4200K DAYLIGHT: 550 μmol ("somewhat less efficient")
PPF 3100K GreenPower 600 μmol

Just as classic 600w son-t greenpower hps the greenpower series are red flower bulbs.
GreenPower lamp (3100K)
Thee GreenPower lamp is optimized in a broad spectrum with a peak in the 660nm DeepRed area. The peak in the 660nm DeepRed area makes the plant more generative which results in a stronger bloom of the plant in the flowering stage.
Daylight lamp (4200K)
The daylight lamp is optimized in a broad spectrum growthlight with an increased share of blue light. The lamp can be used for the growth stage of the plant. [and supplement hps]

http://www.epapillon.com/index.php/fixtures/d-papillon


*Well, in practice:

 

[TheChemist77]

any body see the new ipower 600 watt led? any good? or better going w/ mars grow led?

 

[Sativied]

Not worth it imo and questionable as I think 2 of the 315's can match a 1000w hps if you're growing for numbers.

It can match 'a' 1000w hps perhaps (if you compare the phillips cmh bulbs to a cheap hps) but it cannot match 'the' 1000w hps (philips vs philips).

2x315watt on 4x4' is 743 µmol/m²s
1x600watt on 4x4' is 737 µmol/m²s
1x1000watt on 4x4' is 1342 µmol/m²s

A huge output difference the spectrum difference won't make up for.

Using multiple fixtures is apart from better, more uniform, spread (and than the 1000w would still work fine for a matching surface) not considered an advantage.

 

[a senile fungus]

It can match 'a' 1000w hps perhaps (if you compare the phillips cmh bulbs to a cheap hps) but it cannot match 'the' 1000w hps (philips vs philips).

2x315watt on 4x4' is 743 µmol/m²s
1x600watt on 4x4' is 737 µmol/m²s
1x1000watt on 4x4' is 1342 µmol/m²s

A huge output difference the spectrum difference won't make up for.

Using multiple fixtures is apart from better, more uniform, spread (and than the 1000w would still work fine for a matching surface) not considered an advantage.

OK. So, if I wanted to use my 2x 315w CMH 4200K for veg, do you think I could use those two bulbs alone or should I also have a low watt HPS (maybe 250 or 400w) just as an extra photon cannon? Assuming a 4x8 space

 

[Sativied]

OK. So, if I wanted to use my 2x 315w CMH 4200K for veg, do you think I could use those two bulbs alone or should I also have a low watt HPS (maybe 250 or 400w) just as an extra photon cannon? Assuming a 4x8 space

For veg that should work, not ideal really, but apparently it works. During flowering they'd make better add-ons (on the high orange-red son-t philips hps that is) but in small setups that's hard with hid bulbs. You can't get a good uniform mixed spectrum across the surface with for example 1x315w cmh and 1x600/1000watt hps.

Instead of adding said low watt hps you'd probably be better off adding another 315w. They don't provide a completely square footprint (not with those batwings) so if you'd place them like | | | (instead of - - - ) and fold the hoods properly you could get a fairly even spread on 4x8.

That 743 µmol/m²s is based on two 315w 3100K on 4x4', 2x 4200K would amount to 681 µmol/m²s on 4x4.

1500 µmol/m²s max but you don't want to go there unless you can evenly spread it, and it's also not efficient (the last 500 µmol extra results in far less weight than the first 1000).

900-1100 works fine to get a max full bud-to-bud field. For vegging, especially initially, it requires far less.

Using 2 x 4200K on 4x8 is only 340 µmol/m²s, using 3 gives you 511 µmol/m²s

A better comparison is what you get with the 315w 4200k on a square meter, which is 506 µmol/m²s.

The difference with 2 and 3 would be mostly veg time and not yield per cycle. If you veg for 6 weeks or so normally that could make a significant difference per year, but not if you have a separate veg space.

Numbers are estimates based on http://www.epapillon.com/index.php/estimate#calc

Seems the papilon fixtures are pricey, but this one could be interesting for less rectangular spaces than yours (on 4x8 2 fixtures gives better spread).
http://www.epapillon.com/index.php/fixtures/double-d-papillon

 

[churchhaze]

The photons output per electric watt input is probably the most important factor of a lamp, but consider that blue photons generated carry more energy. 15% between 400-500nm is a considered a good amount of blue.

A hypothetical light that only emits 730nm photons will have 0% PAR, low electrical efficiency, while boasting a high photons output/watts input. You could also have a light that only emits 450nm with very high efficiency, but has the same number of photons output as the 730nm light, but less energy stored per photon.

All that being said, even the generic HPS lamps will probably crush most of those LED brands.

This is exactly what we tell noobs in the LED section. If your plan is to get some cheap chinese panels based on older, low efficiency leds, you may as well use HID. I totally agree with the conclusion made in the study. HPS is better than the bad dog. It will produce the same, if not better for a considerably lower startup cost.

You're wasting your time with the mars shit. The new cree cxb chips can easily see 50-60% depending on how much you underdrive them, with 15% blue and a 3000k 80cri spectrum without having to deal with disco lights. High electrical efficiency white at a lower color temperature implies greater photon output per input watt.

You're lucky to get 30% efficiency with mars crap.

An Economic Analysis of Greenhouse Lighting - LED vs HPS

http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/pub__8264567.pdf
From uni in Utah. Just skimmed through it, looks good.

View attachment 3361323

As usual gavita nearly as good as phillips.*

 

[Sativied]

Never heard of Mars crap/shit, sounds organic though.

 

[churchhaze]

All I hear about recently is mars... "is mars good?" no. "well i just got it.. i'll tell you how it works out". great!! I can't wait to see the results..... not...

I scored 11 of the new cxb2590 3000k u2 bins that just came out and am currently working on drilling/tapping holes in some big ass heat sinks so I can screw in my shiny new cob holders!

uno...

I was really happy with the results from vero 18 and vero 29, and these are a step up in specs. They were released last week and destroy the last models in specs! According to the specs, I should be able to get the same PAR W output with 193W instead of 240W with the exact same spectrum!

LEDs is an expensive hobby. If someone asks about mars, I tell them to buy HPS. They make us all look bad! "growing with leds" means absolutely nothing!

Never heard of Mars crap/shit, sounds organic though.

 

[churchhaze]

Never heard of Mars crap/shit, sounds organic though.

Half done!

 

[TheChemist77]

Half done!

View attachment 3361623

i can NOT build an led light, i dont understand the difference other than the way they look between a cob style and reg led light..can some body please give me an led that will cover a 4x4 area in FLOWERING for $600.00 or less.. i want to do a 4x4 side by side compare w/ an led vs a 600 watt hps..both will be covering a 4x4 ebb n flow table w/ same everything exept a led in 1 and the hps in the other.. Also do u really think the led will even come close in production? id prefer a $400.00 one or less but im hoping to get a decent led, reg or cob i dont know the dif or care but good for flowering...

 

[churchhaze]

Don't even bother trying to find a decent LED light for a 4x4 for under 600 dollars. It does not exist. Just stick with HPS.

It's not the style "cob" that makes it better, it's the specifics.

i can NOT build an led light, i dont understand the difference other than the way they look between a cob style and reg led light..can some body please give me an led that will cover a 4x4 area in FLOWERING for $600.00 or less.. i want to do a 4x4 side by side compare w/ an led vs a 600 watt hps..both will be covering a 4x4 ebb n flow table w/ same everything exept a led in 1 and the hps in the other.. Also do u really think the led will even come close in production? id prefer a $400.00 one or less but im hoping to get a decent led, reg or cob i dont know the dif or care but good for flowering...