Why?

Seamaiden said:

Us? We gave weapons (to bin Laden and Hussein, more on that later), we gave training, including on torture.

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may said:

The US didn't give weapons nor training to OBLs group past the use of the stingers and as I have stated theres not any proof of that.

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Osama Bin Laden

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]The military documents had been given to Nosair by Ali Mohammed, an Egyptian born Islamic fundamentalist who had come to live in the United Statesin 1985. He had been in the United States earlier that decade, having graduated as a captain from a Special Forces Officers School at Fort Bragg in 1981 in a program for visiting military officials from foreign countries. He joined the U.S. military in 1986 and received a security clearance for level "secret." He was assigned as a sergeant with the U.S. Army Special Operations at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He also served unofficially as an assistant instructor at the JFK Special Operations Warfare School at Fort Bragg where he participated in teaching a class on the Middle East and Islamic fundamentalist perceptions of the United States.

Ali Mohammed became active in the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan and soon connected with Islamic militants in New Jersey who had been training and supporting the jihad. Mohammed was introduced to El Sayyid Nosair by Khaled Ibrahim, an Egyptian born Islamic fundamentalist in New Jersey. Ibrahaim had become active in the Office of Services of the Mujihadeen, known Al Kifah, the group that recruited volunteers and funds for the jihad in Afghanistan. Al Kifah, headquartered in Peshawar, Pakistan, maintained scores of offices worldwide, including three dozen in the United States, with Al Kifah's primary American offices located in Brooklyn, Jersey City and Tucson, Arizona. As noted by federal prosecutors earlier this month, the Office of Services was transformed into the terrorist organization of Osama Bin Laden, known as Al Qaeda.[/SIZE][/FONT]

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may said:

The US didn't give weapons nor training to OBLs group past the use of the stingers

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One more note on this May...Wouldn't that qualify as supplying OBL with weapons? Aren't stinger missiles classified as military weaponry?

the more i learn about politics, the more i hate my gov't.... .... anyone else have this problem?



edit- its just amazing how the media lies to us SOOOOO much. an older friend of mine was explaining me "the real" reasons why we are invading the middle east... lmao, how come they dont explain "the real" reasons on the news... its always "the terrorists, the madmen, they want to kill americans, they might be planning another 911 right now, we need to protect our country from them getting hold of WMD, blah blah blah..."

it just seems like they are so full of shit now... i dont know what to believe..
.

VTXDave said:

How Did Iraq Get Its Weapons? We Sold Them

Here they are closing the deal...

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Your smiley face doesn't wipe away the lie that precedes it. Nor the propaganda link.

The US normalized relations in 82 [the pic above is from late 83] which alowed iraq to buy from the US and although it is true that agricutural chemicals that could that could be used as precursors and some chemicals that could be used in the production came from the US [You shoul also know that it has never been proven that any of these precursors has been shown to have been usd to make any WMDs] and some things directly from the US you should also note that people were indicted for this. Others were indicted for selling tec stuf.

The real truth is a German company Karl kobe built Iraqs chemical weapons facility and 5 large research laboratories. Kobe using a US company to buy and then reshiping did get some parts for the facility and the rest came from europe. As for the technology that came from europe mostly from Germany also, no mater anyone says or what you read.
As for the precursors came from singapore [4,516 tons], ntherlands [4,261 tons], egypt [2,400 tons], india [2,292 tons], united arab emirates more than [4,500 tons] of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors. You see there are precursors and there PRECURSORS and because of this there is reason to believe that the precursors from the US were used as they were intended for agricutural uses.

As for precursors a potato is a precursor for vodka.

A pipe could be a precursor for a bomb.

Plant food a precursor for explosive.

YOU CAN'T SHOW A SINGLE WEAPON that the US gave or sold to Saddam.

Are we not carefull so we don't get salmonella from chicken?

Do you not know of people who have gotten E coli from jack in the box?

Botulinum is in a food that can be gotten any where I will not tell what it is but for less than 10 bucks you could grow your own easy and simple.

Labs buy these things not because they can't get them but its just less trouble.

Your pernicious post shows that you may have the same core values as med.

VTXDave said:

Osama Bin Laden



One more note on this May...Wouldn't that qualify as supplying OBL with weapons? Aren't stinger missiles classified as military weaponry?

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Do you think that you are cute?
Cuting a sentence in half to remove a qualifer which I might add was something that I have wandered if it could have happened and have never seen any where else but in my own posts and you wish to use it to prove ME wrong?

It as also dumb to use someone trained by the US who later joins OBLs group as proof that OBL was trained by the US?

I have supper to eat. This was very silly of you I would expected better.

may said:

Do you think that you are cute?
Cuting a sentence in half to remove a qualifer which I might add was something that I have wandered if it could have happened and have never seen any where else but in my own posts and you wish to use it to prove ME wrong?

It as also dumb to use someone trained by the US who later joins OBLs group as proof that OBL was trained by the US?

I have supper to eat. This was very silly of you I would expected better.

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Cute? No...Handsome? Definitely....But I digress. How so? If you'll look above, I quoted your retort to Seamaiden precisely as you posted. Here it is again...

may said:

The US didn't give weapons nor training to OBLs group past the use of the stingers and as I have stated theres not any proof of that.

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Now, if we were to agree that all we gave to the Mujahadin and OBL was stinger missiles only, then would your statement make sense? The first half of your statement indicates that we (the US) did not give weapons to OBL...other than stinger missiles which is common knowledge that they were used in Afghanistan. The second half indicates that there actually is no proof of the US supplying the rebels with said weapons. Stinger missiles are US made weapons. I surmise that stinger missiles are military weapons. We gave said missiles to them for one purpose....to take down Soviet aircraft. Can we agree upon that? If so, I draw the conclusion that we indeed provide them with weaponry.

Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The United States, the United Kingdom and Saudi Arabia became major financial contributors, the United States donating "$600 million in aid per year, with a matching amount coming from the Gulf states."[45] The People's Republic of China also sold Type 56 (AKM) assault rifles and Type 69 RPGs to mujahideen in co-operation with the CIA, as did Egypt with assault rifles. Of particular significance was the donation of American-made FIM-92 Stinger anti-aircraft missile systems, which increased aircraft losses of the Soviet Air Force...

In March 1985 the U.S. government adopted National Security Decision Directive (NSDD) 166, which set a goal of military victory for the mujahideen. After 1985 the CIA and ISI placed greater pressure on the mujahideen to attack regime strongholds. Under direct instructions from Director of Central Intelligence William Casey, the CIA initiated programs for training Afghans in techniques such as car bombs and assassinations and in engaging in cross-border raids into the USSR

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may said:

Your smiley face doesn't wipe away the lie that precedes it. Nor the propaganda link.

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That was to add some levity to the conversation. I know that the pic I posted wasn't of Rumsfeld and Hussein closing any deal. Propaganda? Hmm, OK. For the record, when I posted the link the other day, I told Seamaiden that you would immediately discount it as "spin".

may said:

The real truth is a German company Karl kobe built Iraqs chemical weapons facility and 5 large research laboratories. Kobe using a US company to buy and then reshiping did get some parts for the facility and the rest came from europe. As for the technology that came from europe mostly from Germany also, no mater anyone says or what you read.

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I wholeheartedly agree that Europe was deeply involved in this charade.

may said:

Your pernicious post shows that you may have the same core values as med.

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Doubtful. He and I may agree on some things, but IMO MM tends toward more socialistic ideologies than I, but I should let him speak for himself in that regard.

From the Defense Technical Information Center...

The saga begins in December 1979, with the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan and the U.S. decision less than two weeks later to begin supplying weapons to the anticommunist rebels.(7) President Jimmy Carter, who during his first three years in office had publicly denied that the Soviets harbored expansionist intentions,
despite mounting evidence to the contrary, simply had had enough. He signed a finding drafted by National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski, authorizing the covert supply of weapons through Pakistan to help the rebels "harass" Soviet forces - the greatest goal then believed attainable by the ragtag rebels.(9)


Finally, in March 1986, President Reagan authorized notification to Congress of his decision to provide Stingers to the Afghan rebels, necessitating a "memorandum of notification" modifying Jimmy Carter's six-year-old finding. With the Made-in-America threshold now crossed, the United States also began to supply an array of other sophisticated weapons for the rebels, including mine clearers, satellite-targetable mortars, "mule-mobile" rocket launchers, helicopter detectors, and even rudimentary cruise missiles.(82)

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Full 39 page PDF available here...
The Stinger Missile and US Intervention in Afghanistan

may said:

The US normalized relations in 82 [the pic above is from late 83] which alowed iraq to buy from the US and although it is true that agricutural chemicals that could that could be used as precursors and some chemicals that could be used in the production came from the US [You shoul also know that it has never been proven that any of these precursors has been shown to have been usd to make any WMDs] and some things directly from the US you should also note that people were indicted for this. Others were indicted for selling tec stuf.

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U.S. support for Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The United States supported Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War as a counterbalance to post-revolutionary Iran. The support took the form of technological aid, intelligence, the sale of dual-use and military equipment, and direct involvement and warfare against Iran.

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Arming Iraq and the Path to War, by John King, 3/31/03

December 1982. Hughes Aircraft ships 60 Defender helicopters to Iraq.
October 1983. The Reagan Administration begins secretly allowing Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt to transfer United States weapons, including Howitzers, Huey helicopters, and bombs to Iraq. These shipments violated the Arms Export Control Act.

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The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Now I have to ask May, on more than one occasion you have dismissed my points (which is fine by me), which I have provided links to articles, without presenting anything yourself to the contrary. You merely dismiss them as "spin" and/or propaganda. I have as of yet witnessed you post a link to a counterpoint. Do you have any "proof" to the contrary other than your word?

VTXDave said:

Now, if we were to agree that all we gave to the Mujahadin and OBL was stinger missiles only, then would your statement make sense?

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So you get it, that is the truth, except we didn't give OBL any stingers[as for as I know]. OBL had his own funding and training, although it is more correct to say the arab group as OBL brought in money and built the base, that was his part, the fighting and training was done by others. This group had nothing to do and wanted nothing with the CIA and it was reciprocal, as was also for Pakistan, as they funded [with the USs and others money] and trained the afghan mujhideen and that was the and their agenda. The arabs would have wanted stingers and would have tryed to find a way to git them. The CIA didn't want the arabs to have stingers and would have tryed to make sure that they didn't get them and as I have said theres nothing to make me think that the arabs were able to get any durring the war at least. But being honest I can't totally discount it.

VTXDave said:

The first half of your statement indicates that we (the US) did not give weapons to OBL...other than stinger missiles which is common knowledge that they were used in Afghanistan. The second half indicates that there actually is no proof of the US supplying the rebels with said weapons.

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Your just trying to muddy the waters. The US didn't give anyone weapons exept for the stingers.

VTXDave said:

Stinger missiles are US made weapons. I surmise that stinger missiles are military weapons. We gave said missiles to them for one purpose....to take down Soviet aircraft. Can we agree upon that? If so, I draw the conclusion that we indeed provide them with weaponry.

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The problem is that you say [provide them], and that could be anyone that you wish it to be. So no I don't agree with your statment. As above you are still just trying to muddy the water.

I am out of time, I will try to post tomorrow if I can.

Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/quote]

may said:

So you get it, that is the truth, except we didn't give OBL any stingers[as for as I know]. OBL had his own funding and training, although it is more correct to say the arab group as OBL brought in money and built the base, that was his part, the fighting and training was done by others. This group had nothing to do and wanted nothing with the CIA and it was reciprocal

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I beg you to view Nat'l Geo's "The Road to 9/11". It's a fairly comprehensive documentary that follows OBL from the Soviet-Afghan War to 9/11. In it you will see actual video showing OBL (then a member of the Mujahadin as Al Qaeda had not been formed then) alongside other rebels toting weapons up mountainside trails. I agree that he financed a lot of the war, but he was an active combatant as well.

may said:

Your just trying to muddy the waters. The US didn't give anyone weapons exept for the stingers.

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No, I'm counterpointing your argument. In your post to Seamaiden you stated...

may said:

The US didn't give weapons nor training to OBLs group past the use of the stingers and as I have stated theres not any proof of that.

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Which happens to be different from this statement:

may said:

The US didn't give anyone weapons exept for the stingers.

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You accused me of quoting you out of context (by dismissing the last half of your sentence)and now you have done just that. OBL was a volunteer early on with the Mujahadin rebels so I make no distinction between the two. He joined the cause, and yes, he financed a lot of the rebellion, but again, he was an active participant in the war against the Soviets....

Afghanistan, the CIA, bin Laden, and the Taliban

One of the first non-Afghan volunteers to join the ranks of the mujahideen was Osama bin Laden, a civil engineer and businessman from a wealthy construction family in Saudi Arabia, with close ties to members of the Saudi royal family. Bin Laden recruited 4,000 volunteers from his own country and developed close relations with the most radical mujahideen leaders. He also worked closely with the CIA, raising money from private Saudi citizens. By 1984, he was running the Maktab al-Khidamar, an organization set up by the ISI to funnel "money, arms, and fighters from the outside world in the Afghan war."Since September 11, CIA officials have been claiming they had no direct link to bin Laden. These denials lack credibility. Earlier this year, the trial of defendants accused of the 1998 U.S. embassy bombing in Kenya disclosed that the CIA shipped high-powered sniper rifles directly to bin Laden's operation in 1989. Even the Tennessee-based manufacturer of the rifles confirmed this. According to the Boston Globe,

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Note the shipment of sniper rifles...not stingers.

Didn't I tell you, sweetheart? There is none so blind as he who will NOT see. This is an exercise, although it's hopefully helping others know which direction to look. I stand by my statements because there is sufficient proof for me. Video and government documentation, even that which I don't like, serves as that proof. What's doubly amusing is that the person who screams "PROOF! PROOF! I WANT PROOF!" then not only goes on to dismiss the proof, but has yet to provide any of their own.

VTXDave said:

From the Defense Technical Information Center...
Full 39 page PDF available here...
The Stinger Missile and US Intervention in Afghanistan

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This seems to be a good link I'm going to the little ladys office in a bit to read it, as I can't read it my webtv I could print it but my printer has been down for a year.

Please tell me of a single weapon the US gave to Saddom?

VTXDave said:

U.S. support for Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Arming Iraq and the Path to War, by John King, 3/31/03
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Now I have to ask May, on more than one occasion you have dismissed my points (which is fine by me), which I have provided links to articles, without presenting anything yourself to the contrary. You merely dismiss them as "spin" and/or propaganda. I have as of yet witnessed you post a link to a counterpoint. Do you have any "proof" to the contrary other than your word?

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You mean as you have dismissed my points or have ignored them? Yes you will find that I am dismissive of spin and propaganda from the shark tank through overgrow to here I have yet to post a link in whatever name I have used. I don't have an agenda that I try to push nor am I here to learn as to be truthful this is hardly a place for me to learn anything, this is not to say that I haven't and some of it may have been usefull but I disremember anything at this time. You could look at me as a janitor cleaning up a bit of the bullshit spread about by others. At 14 I noted that even the best texts had errors, and I make them myself, but what I don't do is try to hide them nor to cover them up, as they are mine I value them as to remind me that I am also flawed.
My word is my bond and I stand behind it, and few links will be as correct as me if I wish to be so, though I must admit that I do play games within games and also spin some and although it could be seen as an agenda I teach a few lessons and help people to think.

As for you and seamaiden your misconceptions of what has gone on in the world and why aside I find you to be bright and good people. Seamaidens take on med wasn't far from mine and her people not valuing what they haven't worked for [some don't value what they have worked for and some like me value everthing] could be used in so many ways, I use it myself very often.
Tell me a bit of yourself?

Time to go read from your link.

VTXDave said:

I beg you to view Nat'l Geo's "The Road to 9/11". It's a fairly comprehensive documentary that follows OBL from the Soviet-Afghan War to 9/11. In it you will see actual video showing OBL (then a member of the Mujahadin as Al Qaeda had not been formed then) alongside other rebels toting weapons up mountainside trails. I agree that he financed a lot of the war, but he was an active combatant as well.

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His rifle was more of a affectation than a weapon. He didn't finance any of the war that I know of but he did get others to donate money and from what I know of it he seems to have kept some of it as what went through his hands didn't all seem show up in the field. He was in only one battle that I know of, and I think it was the only one. Much ado has been made of him, but his group did very little in the overall scheme of things. He has just had a lot of good publicity. Please believe me when I say that he was smart in more than a few ways, like sending money to the homes of the killed or injured, keeping contact with all of those who were of use ect. but the truth is he is more of a money man/figure head.

I wish to thank you for your link as I will not have need to use my caveat as now I can state for a fact that the CIA didn't train nor give any weapons at all, not only to the OBL group but any group of mujahideen period.

VTXDave said:

No, I'm counterpointing your argument. In your post to Seamaiden you stated...


Which happens to be different from this statement:

You accused me of quoting you out of context (by dismissing the last half of your sentence)and now you have done just that. OBL was a volunteer early on with the Mujahadin rebels so I make no distinction between the two. He joined the cause, and yes, he financed a lot of the rebellion, but again, he was an active participant in the war against the Soviets....

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I didn't accuse you, it was simply what you did and I said that you did it. It wasn't an accusation simply a fact.

You not making the distinction only shows your lack of understanding of what went on and why, because all of the different groups and there were very many made the distinction themselves and for good reason. None were as different as the arabs.

Remember that I can play word games very well myself and I don't forget. Not that I care about your play that much.

BECAUSE WE CAN THATS WHY