Vertical wall illuminated from both sides..

Discussion in 'Vertical Growing' started by nxsov180db, Dec 9, 2017.

  1.  
    nxsov180db

    nxsov180db Well-Known Member

    So you think 1000-1200 is good enough? Can I ask what concentration/ppm you use?
     
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  2.  
    ttystikk

    ttystikk Well-Known Member

    I've used anywhere from 1000-1500 before, the results were the same.
     
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  3.  
    nxsov180db

    nxsov180db Well-Known Member

    I've got 200x 1 meter led strips coming for supplemental lighting behind the plants. Each strip has 144x smd 5630 warm white leds, run off of a 12v power source and pull 15 watts. I'm going to use 1 per square foot of growing area. I also went ahead and ordered 54x 304peice Samsung lm651c s6 3000k boards.
     
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  4.  
    nxsov180db

    nxsov180db Well-Known Member

    My light strips came in, I hooked them up to a power source and they actually pull between 19-20 watts each, they are bright as fuck I can’t even look at them where as my t8 strips that also pull 18 watts I can look at no problem, these have got to be twice as bright, the seller claimed 30 lumens per chip and that each chip pulled .1 watt which would make these strips 300lm/watt which is highly unlikely since the Samsung boards are just over 200lm/watt at low wattage. Since these actually pull around 20 that puts each led around .139 watts which if each led actually does put out 30 lumens puts these at 220lm/watt. In either case I think this is a great buy for supplemental lighting, 200x 1 meter strips for $320 that are this bright is a good deal I think.. when I get the “alleged” Samsung boards in I feel like doing some sort of comparison with light output at the same wattage..
     
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  5.  
    nxsov180db

    nxsov180db Well-Known Member

    Here’s 5 strips lit up
    10FAA093-F55D-479C-A74F-9ED8D4A5BA08.jpeg
     
  6.  
    see4

    see4 Well-Known Member

    this will be a nice setup once you get it done. light, every... where!
     
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  7.  
    nxsov180db

    nxsov180db Well-Known Member

    I know I haven't updated this thread much, been busy with a few other grow related thing.. I decided on actually doing 1 wall with lighting on both sides. I'm probably not going to go the full 14' in length but more like 9 or 10 something like that, I want an area for either shelving or a couple 2x4 strain testing tents I have. I'm not going to go with the 6" pvc I am going to stick with 4" which is what I use now. I also am going to try to veg in a different area and once they get to height I will move them to the wall. It's tough successfully transplanting in aero I always get a bad case of shock so what I am going to do to over come this reoccurring issue is instead of drilling a 2" hole for each netpot in the pipe I am going to use a Tee fitting with a 4" cap and the netpot will stay in the cap when I transplant giving me plenty of room for roots to be taken out, a lot better than squeezing them through a 2" hole with jagged edges. When I veg I will use something like a 2' long piece of pvc connected to the cap to keep the roots from growing together. Not sure exactly what the 2' long piece of pvc is going to attach to, I am thinking of just using totes with 4" holes drilled in the lids and maybe 6 plants per tote. I'm also toying with the idea of using 25 micron screen in the bottom of the 2' long pipes to contain the roots, or maybe ill cap off the bottom as well and drill a hole in the side of the pvc half way up to let water drain but keep the roots in. If this vertical wall setup works the way I think it will I will most likely phase out my grow tents with vertical walls. Right now it is area that limits how much I grow, I think in the future it will be watts.
     
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  8.  
    GrowLightResearch

    GrowLightResearch Well-Known Member

    @nxsov180db, interesting you are doing this. I will soon be starting an experimental vertical grow.

    My hypothesis is to is use side lighting to do a high yield grow with high irradiance using as little electricity (solar panels) as possible.


    I have eight 560mm long Gen 2 EB strips (BRIDGELUX BXEB-L0560Z-30E2000-C-B3 @ $7 ea ) which will be located about 100mm from the canopy. I found with the Gen 2 EB I could get excellent uniformity across the canopy at a distance between canopy and grow light of only 65mm. At 65-100mm I can get high irradiance (e.g. 1000 µmol/m²/s) with an estimated 50 watts.

    The problem is at 65mm there will be very little penetration. So I want to confine the grow space "wall of green" to 100mm deep. Still the distance from the grow light (65mm) through the 100mm thick canopy would drop the irradiance from 1000 µmoles at the surface of the canopy to 155 µmoles on the opposite side.

    Then there is the problem of phototropism bending the stem toward the light.

    I will germinate the seeds and grow the seedlings under blue with a strong yellow background. This is an attempt to mediate hypocotyl elongation and reduce stem internode spacing using well established photomorphogenesis (blue yellow 1:4). Reduced internode spacing and reduced gene expression of the phototropism will minimize bending toward the light.

    After a couple of weeks I will hang 2 sheets of plexiglass 100mm apart to contain the plants canopy to 100mm wide.
    I am going to try mount the EB strips 100mm from the surface of the plexiglass. I will adjust the irradiance to 1000 µMoles at 100mm from the canopy the irradiance at the stem (50mm below the plexiglass) will be 444 µMoles and 250 µMoles on the opposite side.

    To increase irradiation and deal with the bending toward the light I will add another set of EB strips on the opposite side. I will switch lighting from one side to the other as the stem begins bending toward the light. So double the EB sticks but not double the electricity.

    Two plants of a high yield species.
    To confine each plant to 100mm, I will hang two sheets of plexiglass 100 mm apart.
    The grow space for each plant will be about 10cm deep x 80cm wide x 2m high with 4 cubic ft of Happy Frog soil (two 10 gallon, 2 cubic ft pots)
    Two set of 16 EB Gen 2 strips BXEB-L0560Z-30E2000-C-B3.
    Nutrients and schedule TBD.




    ============================================================================================


    6 years ago with 10mA LEDs was able to get 4-5 internodes per inch on a species of mystery skunk.


    ______________________________________________________________

    used crude intra-canopy blue and amber LEDs running at 10mA.
    light-sticks-close-up-selective-light-training-epoxy-encapsulation-sm.jpg

    __________________________________________________________

    Blue intra-canopy lighting to irradiate only the stem and not leaves.
    Jack Herer
    young-Jack-Herer-marijuana.jpg

    ___________________________________________________________

    You can see the sticks of amber LEDs hung on the plant and a muffin fan. (6 years ago, 10mA)
    Mystery Skunk
    selective-light-training-intracanopy-lighting.jpg


    Purple Arrow half way through flower, notice intra-canopy sticks of LEDs (6 years ago, 10mA)
    not topped

    purple-arrow-marijuana.jpg






    Remember the above plants were grown under LEDs running at 10mA.

    ==============================================================================




    For maximizing yield per m² (future)
    the growing media would be mounted on rails or wheels
    so can plants be confined to an 20cm x 77cm space.
    The plant sets can then be slid out into an aisle with plants on each side of the aisle.

    For a cargo container configuration:
    7’8" W (2.33m)
    grow area for 2 plants = 2.33m ÷ 3 ≈ 0.77m wide x 800mm deep,
    Well over 200 plants in a 40' cargo container.
    Up to 42 100W solar panels could be mounted on top of a 40' cargo container supplying more than enough power for the grow lights.
    Top of 40' = 39’5" x 7’8" (12.01 m x 2.33 m ; L x W).
    floor.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  9.  
    wietefras

    wietefras Well-Known Member

    So you pretend to be SuperAngryGuy who tells people to use a cheap cosine corrected lux meter and not waste money on a quantum meter? Funny that.

    You also seem to have "forgotten" that you didn't actually "grow" these plants under 10mA leds, but that the leds were only adding a bit of blue light on the stem to shorten the internodes while the main light provided the actual light to grow.
     
  10.  
    GrowLightResearch

    GrowLightResearch Well-Known Member

    No I do not pretend to be SuperAngryGuy.
    All the info on that came from http://www.growweedeasy.com/slt-selective-light-training-superangryguy
    Blue was for elongation.
    The amber was for photosynthesis.

    I though he did a pretty good job, do not understand why you have a problem, but then I do not care either. I believe he was more of a plant physiologist LED guy. Very crude but effective.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  11.  
    wietefras

    wietefras Well-Known Member

    Because you clearly DID pretend that you actually did this grow.
     
  12.  
    GrowLightResearch

    GrowLightResearch Well-Known Member

    :roll:
     
  13.  
    nxsov180db

    nxsov180db Well-Known Member

    I ordered more boards so I'll actually have a total of 70x 304-piece samsung pcb boards powered by 10x meanwell 320's. I will use 5 drivers and 35 boards for each side of the wall. It will be about 35 watts per sq/ft on each side of the wall if I make the wall/canopy 8' long and 6' tall. I want to set up some of the lights temporarily and test the light output i'll be putting out at the canopy level, I just want to compare it to the cobs I am using which are about 47-48 watts per sq/ft.
     
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  14.  
    wietefras

    wietefras Well-Known Member

    You can roll your eyes all you want, but you did. The whole thing is posted in the first person and you made up the "6 years ago" bit to act like you once did that. You also gave no reference where you copied this from. You even wrote some of the lines yourself with your own incorrect ideas of what the test was about or how it performed.

    A real researcher would give a link when referencing someone else's work and they would copy/past it word for word instead of messing it up like you did. But then you are no researcher of course. Just a lame copy/paste artist who doesn;t even understand what he copy/pastes.
     
  15.  
    GrowLightResearch

    GrowLightResearch Well-Known Member

    What is wrong with you??
    What tests? Brushing up on you ignorance? Again? This stuff is not that difficult. Why do you not get it?


    I NEVER said I was a researcher. You made that up. You are so presumptuous. Go away please. If you keep posting do you think you may post something intelligent? Has not happened yet.

    You need to learn this stuff before you can cast stones at me. See this post:

     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  16.  
    GrowLightResearch

    GrowLightResearch Well-Known Member

    Wall watts is a very poor metric. The only metric that has any value is PPFD. PPFD / Watt would be valid. Lumens, PPF, LER, QER, and wall watts are useless.

    Watts per square foot refers to radiant watts not wall watts. The watts that are consumed by an LED are both electrical, dissipated in the form of heat, and radiant (light).

    Radiometric irradiance is measured in watts/m²/s. Luminous radiance (Illuminance) is measured in lux. And PPFD is measured in the number of photons in µMoles per m² per second.

    Radiant watts are very similar PPFD. Each photon transports energy. Each wavelength carries a specific amount of energy. Blue carries more energy than red. Plants do not care about the energy level of photons, they just want photons. That is why PPFD disposes of the photon energy in its measurements.

    Lux is totally distorted. So distorted it is better to ignore. It will throw you off more often than help. Green lumens weigh 600x more than red lumens.

    Lux, radiometric irradiance , and PPFD all measure the same thing, how many photons exit the light source and hit the target area. The only one applicable to horticulture is PPFD, the number of photon per second that reach the canopy.

    The most common colors in horticulture are deep blue (450nm) and deep red (660nm).

    Compare a 445nm or 660nm lumen to a green 555nm lumen.

    I have a web page that shows the values for converting lux, radiant watts, and photons.
    http://www.growlightresearch.com/ppfd/convert.html
    I will be measuring the PPFD of (among others) six Bridgelux Gen2 strips (BXEB-L0560Z-30E2000-C-B3) tonight. I am doing this to find the exact perfect distance to place the side lighting strips.

    Yesterday I wrote and app to compare height vs. canopy penetration. Screen shot:

    PenetrationApp.jpg
     
  17.  
    nxsov180db

    nxsov180db Well-Known Member

    Yes I know, the watts I am referring to would be highly efficient, much more efficient than the cob setup I run now. Right now 47/48 wall watts per sq/ft gives me 1250ppfd with citizen 1212's (1 per sq ft).
     
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  18.  
    wietefras

    wietefras Well-Known Member

    Complete nonsense. You can simply divide the lux measurement to get a PPFD value. Divide by about 69 for a warm white COB.

    Besides, all you need is PPF and the grow surface area (flat plane or cylinder for vertical). Divide PPF by area and you get the average PPFD. To be more accurate, subtract 10 to 20% for wall losses.


    Of course you fail to realize that according to your (incorrect!) calculations, you would need to start with 32000 PPFD to get 500PPFD at the canopy from 40" up. Since it's 8 times as far as 5" you would get only 1/64 the light after it travelling for 40" instead of 5").

    Why not start with the same amount of light at the point where you hang the light and then calculate how much is left? At least then you would immediately have realized how incredibly useless this chart is. You end up with pretty much no light at all on the canopy if "ISL" would actually apply. Of course it doesn't , but still if you insist on pretending it does then at least apply it correctly.
     
  19.  
    ttystikk

    ttystikk Well-Known Member

    Wall watts includes energy used by the driver, which is entirely reasonable. After all, the energy is being used and the lights won't run without them, so why would people ignore it?
     
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  20.  
    ttystikk

    ttystikk Well-Known Member

    @ OP, any recent pics of how things are going? Your setup was interesting to say the least!
     
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