Topping and FIM'ing

Chef BrownSauce

Active Member
I think topping and FIM'ing is overrated and slows down growth. I find it more efficient to just remove fan leaves and let those sprouts grow out into mains. The earlier in the veg stage you do it the more out of control they grow so be mindful and time it.
 
The earlier in the veg stage you do it the more out of control they grow so be mindful and time it.

Interesting that you say that!
I did both on nl#5xhaze, topping/lst and removing fan leaves in preparation for a scrog -- and with 5-7 potential budsites per 5x5cm screen square I have the feeling I've created a monster :shock: lol
There are more factors playing into the situation I got my plants into, but I have been thinking one of them was making too much light, causing too many of the side branches to try to grow out...

So, when do you start removing fan leaves?
Cheers!:mrgreen:
 
If the fans are HUGE I cut it. I figure it's that big because of nutrient transfer. A few days after I do that the node from that site Shoots out and starts growing its own nodes! You can train from there (screen, tie down, etc.). The nodes with the fan still intact under them will grow slower; and that's how I "train"... I feel that cutting a whole top off just to get the same result is just unnecessary.

Some folk on here will berate me for saying what I said about overrated methods. Because that's just "the way it's always been done". That's insane. We should be trying new things and challenging old ways. This shit grows in the wild just fine without human intervention. Don't need to be so aggressive with nutrient transfer manipulation.
 
Selectively cutting branches for growth manipulating, not fan leaves. Fan leaves only purpose is to help grow for the rest of the plant. Cutting them serves no purpose, unless preventing nicrosis, while in veg.

The only exception would be while running SOG and upper plant growth is hindered by competing for light by a siblings.

Like any other cash crop in veg, root growth "should" be your primary focus, so when put in flower, it will explode in top growth.

I top every node, not because I'm trying to get more colas, but because Im slowing down upper growth. I cut back upper growth as much as I can, but my root system gets bigger and bigger. I try to get 3-5 months out of veg. As the roots grow, they expedite upper growth even more. By the time I get to Flower, they're 4-6ft canopy. I, then, lawnmower/weave the upper growth scrog. Anything not getting light gets cut to avoid light smothering and necrosis
 
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When you cut at the base of the internode, those vegetative shoots get the nutes needed to advance. Eventually the fan leaves under those nodes start to wither as the auxiliary shoots convert to apical shoots, until you top again. Cannabis has a fractal pattern, it repeats in every vegetative shoot. That's why topping works. It multiplies the original pattern. Taking off the fans just makes those patterns grow faster. Since those shoots are a smaller version of the whole, the roots develop to keep up with plant mass production. After a while the main stock gets woody, thick, and strong.

I never said that topping doesn't work. Just that it slows down growth. If you don't want it too tall keep those fans on top intact. If you don't care, cut 'em. Keeping in mind the fractal structure, you can theoretically keep removing fans but like I said, it gets cray cray.

I personally compare fans as those people at your job that brag about how busy they are but actually don't do jack shit. They don't produce buds or add structure. Their job is to get big and get noticed. If left on they slow growth of the real workers. Those shoots that make flowers.
 
Lovely plants there, @Chef BrownSauce & @Dumme - I'd say that goes a ways to show how there are many ways to go that are equally valid 8) (or... that cannabis is a very kind plant that no matter how we fuck them up, they still try and do their best? lol)

I don't have much experience with growing indoors & growing cannabis yet (currently on my 2nd grow and learning all the time :mrgreen:), but I do have a few years' experience handling plants (fruit/herb/veggie gardening) in general.
From this perspective, I agree partially with what both of you are saying.
Yes, root mass is important, and yes, some - definitely not all! - leaves (and side shoots) are indeed useless, and given the time, the plant would most likely shed them herself.

Looking at your plants, Chef BrownSauce, I find it intriguing how well the lower branches developed by just removing fan leaves!
While I did top mine (2x), I also think I may have removed too many leaves AND not enough side shoots, which probably contributed towards their growing too bushily. This then led to such close growth that side shoots couldn't develop as wished and leaves were actually crumpled up against each other for lack of space.

The beginning of my cray cray lol (day 27 from sprout):
2015-11-16_2-sideview.JPG

Looking at the bottom branches of the right plant (corresponding fan leaves had been removed) for example, in retrospect I think I should have removed their side shoots to get them to grow out more ---
would that fit in to your logic of going about, Chef?

Did you LST your plant in that pic? did she have good internodal lengths in veg, and how long did you veg her for?

Just to show the effects of going about the way I did:
I lst'ed everything down from the stage depicted, exposing practically every last shoot to light - & thus spreading growth effort to all of them! Which wasn't good, as these plants weren't stretching much at all during veg.
I ended up deciding to flip to flower early because everything was in each other's way:
2015-11-29_2.einscrogg-final  (2).JPG (day 45 from sprouting)

And since I had up to 7 tips per scrog square (=5x5cm) by day 12 of stretch:
2015-12-11 (1).JPG

I had to thin them out drastically to get the plants back into a viable form :shock:
2015-12-12_sideview.JPG
(and there are still too many LOL, so I may have to pull another few budsites in the next few days - oh sacrilege!)
End of the day, nothing is lost, my plants are healthy and vigorous and beginning to bloom, BUT I do hope to learn from this and have a different progression next time!

Cheers! :bigjoint:
 
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Lovely plants there, @Chef BrownSauce & @Dumme - I'd say that goes a ways to show how there are many ways to go that are equally valid 8) (or... that cannabis is a very kind plant that no matter how we fuck them up, they still try and do their best? lol)

I don't have much experience with growing indoors & growing cannabis yet (currently on my 2nd grow and learning all the time :mrgreen:), but I do have a few years' experience handling plants (fruit/herb/veggie gardening) in general.
From this perspective, I agree partially with what both of you are saying.
Yes, root mass is important, and yes, some - definitely not all! - leaves (and side shoots) are indeed useless, and given the time, the plant would most likely shed them herself.

Looking at your plants, Chef BrownSauce, I find it intriguing how well the lower branches developed by just removing fan leaves!
While I did top mine (2x), I also think I may have removed too many leaves AND not enough side shoots, which probably contributed towards their growing too bushily. This then led to such close growth that side shoots couldn't develop as wished and leaves were actually crumpled up against each other for lack of space.

The beginning of my cray cray lol (day 27 from sprout):
View attachment 3562530

Looking at the bottom branches of the right plant (corresponding fan leaves had been removed) for example, in retrospect I think I should have removed their side shoots to get them to grow out more ---
would that fit in to your logic of going about, Chef?

Did you LST your plant in that pic? did she have good internodal lengths in veg, and how long did you veg her for?

Just to show the effects of going about the way I did:
I lst'ed everything down from the stage depicted, exposing practically every last shoot to light - & thus spreading growth effort to all of them! Which wasn't good, as these plants weren't stretching much at all during veg.
I ended up deciding to flip to flower early because everything was in each other's way:
View attachment 3562532 (day 45 from sprouting)

And since I had up to 7 tips per scrog square (=5x5cm) by day 12 of stretch:
View attachment 3562534

I had to thin them out drastically to get the plants back into a viable form :shock:
View attachment 3562552
(and there are still too many LOL, so I may have to pull another few budsites in the next few days - oh sacrilege!)
End of the day, nothing is lost, my plants are healthy and vigorous and beginning to bloom, BUT I do hope to learn from this and have a different progression next time!

Cheers! :bigjoint:
I started like you, vegetables, houseplants, aloe, fruit bushes, and general landscaping. The same principle applies when you're removing "suckers" from tomato plants. These fans are like the suckers. It's just plant mass.
I love that this species IS so resilient. Because when I started out I was fucking them up, but they came fright back. I quickly learned to respect it and go with the flow they're lead me with. Borderline hippy talk but it's the truth.
I never LST'd. Other than landscaping to get the growth where/when I wanted.
 
When you cut at the base of the internode, those vegetative shoots get the nutes needed to advance. Eventually the fan leaves under those nodes start to wither as the auxiliary shoots convert to apical shoots, until you top again. Cannabis has a fractal pattern, it repeats in every vegetative shoot. That's why topping works. It multiplies the original pattern. Taking off the fans just makes those patterns grow faster. Since those shoots are a smaller version of the whole, the roots develop to keep up with plant mass production. After a while the main stock gets woody, thick, and strong.

I never said that topping doesn't work. Just that it slows down growth. If you don't want it too tall keep those fans on top intact. If you don't care, cut 'em. Keeping in mind the fractal structure, you can theoretically keep removing fans but like I said, it gets cray cray.

I personally compare fans as those people at your job that brag about how busy they are but actually don't do jack shit. They don't produce buds or add structure. Their job is to get big and get noticed. If left on they slow growth of the real workers. Those shoots that make flowers.

I'm confused, who are the fan leaves showing off to, who are they being "noticed" by? Other cannabis plants in the wild? I was unaware that cannabis plants (or any plants) had the capacity for vanity....seems like it wouldn't offer any evolutionary advantages.

*Edit::wall:
 
image.jpg
"Dolly" is my first clone to ever root. She's crooked because I was experimenting with bends. It failed. But she straightened up. The right side is after the harvest (clearly).. All those branches had apex colas. She only vegged for 3 weeks because the crooked stalk made it a hassle to prop up. After all drying I ended up with a zip+.
 
I respectfully disagree. I see you're in flower in the pics. This was about a week ago, still in veg.
View attachment 3562318
A little over 4ft wide.
View attachment 3562320

Only after veg, do I lollipop.
View attachment 3562327

First, thanks for being respectful and not just going H.A.M. on a disagreement. I like to share my findings as well as compare others.
That all said, you have a dope looking grow. No pun intended. The roots snow that you use higher quality nutes than I do. I'm still using up the general hydro brand. A couple of grows ago when I first started doing this they blew up like yours. Is that 4' canopy from one girl? If I used a screen or lst I'd get the same canopy width but I don't mind going high. Pun intended.
 
The roots snow that you use higher quality nutes than I do. I'm still using up the general hydro brand.

I'm aeroponic-aquaponics. So when you say higher quality, I got a chuckle. I'm too cheap to buy chemicals. So far, I've only used pond-fish pellets, FeEDDHA, Epsom Salt, Bone Meal, Molasses, and Phosphoric Acid (only when all else fails). The cheapest Nuts money can buy, but thank you.


Just goes to show that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

jfyi, Although a lot of people like GH, I don't like the idea of big corporate finding ways to invade. GH is now a Scott's Brand product. As far as I know, they haven't changed their formula "yet".
 
View attachment 3562826
"Dolly" is my first clone to ever root. She's crooked because I was experimenting with bends. It failed. But she straightened up. The right side is after the harvest (clearly).. All those branches had apex colas. She only vegged for 3 weeks because the crooked stalk made it a hassle to prop up. After all drying I ended up with a zip+.
haha she's cute :bigjoint:
what strain?

Oh, and what about the veg time on the first girl you shared? :-P
 
Right I understand it was an analogy, I was more asking for an explanation of the analogy. I see what you're saying though, I was just interested if you could expand on that analogy with actual science. Not trying to be rude, I just love to learn new things.

Not sure if im correct as this is the first time ive heard about removing fan leaves and useless shoots. But i believe what hes saying is that the fan leaves are broad for no reason and by removing them you get more light to your buds and foliage.

Basically why have big leaves when all they do is take away work space from the real workers.
 
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