Synthetic (EDTA) vs Organic (amino acids) chelating agents in fertilizers-Jack's/Megacrop

Rurumo

Rurumo

Well-Known Member
I'm just curious to see if anyone has any thoughts on the topic. The single biggest difference between Jack's A/B and Megacrop A/B is that Jack's uses EDTA to chelate its micronutrients, while Megacrop uses amino acid chelates. I'm a huge fan of amino acid use in cannabis cultivation, so obviously to me, the amino acid chelates are preferable, but I'm curious to see if any Jack's users have noticed any micronutrient or calcium deficiencies? EDTA has a profound affinity for calcium, so I'm wondering if the EDTA is binding up calcium in plants fed Jack's to any noticeable extent? I suspect not, since people have such great results with it, I'm sure any rampant calcium deficiencies (or micronutrient deficiencies) would be well documented. Please let me know if you've noticed anything like that and please include your ppms and ratio of a/b. Tyvm for reading my morning fertilizer musings! Fyi, I just used Megacrop as a comparison since it closely matches the Jack's, but I would also be interested in your thoughts on EDTA vs Amino acid chelates in micronutrient packs.
 
MustGro

MustGro

Well-Known Member
That’s an interesting point. I’m on my second grow with Jack’s 321 and I’m finding it has some quirks in my hydro system. I have nice tap water (.1ec), so it’s low on carbonates, and I’m getting more PH swing than I‘m used to on my old GH nutes. Also some tip burn that I haven’t had in a while. I flowered at max 1.8-1.9 last run and the little fan tips in the buds have enough of a burn I’m knocking them off when I dry trim so the buds look nicer. I had a pretty knowledgeable grower on here tell me that tip burn is mostly calcium excess or deficiency.
I was running at 3.78A, 2.52B and .99 Epsom last run and just mixing for more or less gallons to get my EC where I wanted it.
This run I‘m on the old 3A,2B and 1 Epsom the brand is named after. All in grams per gallon.
So in my 40 gallon res last tank I mixed for 35 gallons of nutes but added 40 gallons of water to get my EC 1.5. But it doesn’t stay there long, they’ll eat .3 to .4 EC in 24 hours. That was my first tank over 1.0 EC and the tips burnt a bit on the higher dose, but I’m not 100% sure it’s higher EC that did it. I’ve had small plants burn their tips at .4 EC with it. Hell my cloner will burn the clones a tiny bit at .3 EC on the 321.
I’m been wondering if my PH swings are related to the Jack’s being so easily absorbed and then the quick absorption burns my tips. The swings I’m sure are from my low carbonate water and the absorption rate of the Jack’s, but I can’t really explain the burnt tips as Jack’s calls for more EC than I’m using. Plus so many growers on here get great results with low EC on it.
So in a nutshell, I‘ve been keeping my EC low because of tip burn, but now I’m wondering if my calcium is low and causing it. The chelate binding up calcium might be it….
 
lusidghost

lusidghost

Well-Known Member
MustGro said:
I never tried that. Any tip burn?
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I'm fairly new to Jack's and experimenting with it right now. I switched half way through my last cycle, and the buds ended up having burnt sugar leaf tips. I thought they were nanners at first. This grow my plants started suffering deficiencies once they got big in veg, and I had to delay the flip for over a month while I nursed them back to health by running full strength. After they were in flower the fan leaves tips started to burn, so I cut back the EC to half strength. I'm also using Blumats for the first time, so I knew I would have to adjust the EC. But then the plants started fading, so I gradually ramped the EC back up. The one variable that seems to affect the plants the most is dropping the cal below 2 grams and the mag below 1 gram per gallon. I'm also using RO water, so the input is on me. I feel like I've been robbing them of just enough cal/mag to cause slow creeping issues.
 
MustGro

MustGro

Well-Known Member
lusidghost said:
I'm fairly new to Jack's and experimenting with it right now. I switched half way through my last cycle, and the buds ended up having burnt sugar leaf tips. I thought they were nanners at first. This grow my plants started suffering deficiencies once they got big in veg, and I had to delay the flip for over a month while I nursed them back to health by running full strength. After they were in flower the fan leaves tips started to burn, so I cut back the EC to half strength. I'm also using Blumats for the first time, so I knew I would have to adjust the EC. But then the plants started fading, so I gradually ramped the EC back up. The one variable that seems to affect the plants the most is dropping the cal below 2 grams and the mag below 1 gram per gallon. I'm also using RO water, so the input is on me. I feel like I've been robbing them of just enough cal/mag to cause slow creeping issues.
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Shit, thought I was the only new Jack’s grower with teething issues. Great info, thanks.
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Outdoor plants don't need as as much cal-mag – especially if you are growing in soil (which does not bind calcium and magnesium as much as coco and some other media) – as sunlight has a lot of IR that helps transpiration. Growing under LED is a different ball game – you need higher levels of calcium and magnesium, especially if you have a decent hydroponic set-up that wants to accelerate growth.

The other piece of the puzzle is water. Tap water generally has a moderate amount of calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate in it (more if you live in an area that draws groundwater as well as rainwater) and if you are using RO water or very soft tap water, then you will not have that cal-mag buffer to begin with (anything from EC0.3-0.8 depending on your water). So, the softer your water, the more cal-mag you need.

It is also strain dependent. Indicas generally want more magnesium and slightly higher pH than sativas.

I am not familiar with Jacks so I can't comment on it from an experienced point of view, but if you are getting a calcium deficiency, then that is what your plant is telling you it needs.
 
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twentyeight.threefive

twentyeight.threefive

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
Outdoor plants don't need as as much cal-mag – especially if you are growing in soil (which does not bind calcium and magnesium as much as coco and some other media) – as sunlight has a lot of IR that helps transpiration. Growing under LED is a different ball game – you need higher levels of calcium and magnesium, especially if you have a decent hydroponic set-up that wants to accelerate growth.

The other piece of the puzzle is water. Tap water generally has a moderate amount of calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate in it (more if you live in an area that draws groundwater as well as rainwater) and if you are using RO water or very soft tap water, then you will not have that cal-mag buffer to begin with (anything from EC0.1-0.5 depending on your water). So, the softer your water, the more cal-mag you need.

It is also strain dependent. Indicas generally want more magnesium and slightly higher pH than sativas.

I am not familiar with Jacks so I can't comment on it from an experienced point of view, but if you are getting a calcium deficiency, then that is what your plant is telling you it needs.
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My outdoor plants are in coco, if your opening sentence was referencing my outdoor grow.

Also my tap water that I mix my Jack's with is 35ppm out of the faucet. Can't be much in there for calcium or magnesium.
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
I'm mostly saying that growing under the sun is a little bit different to growing under LED. Can I ask what your EC is once you've mixed everything up and whether you use any other additives?

I had a look, at the Jacks 321 formula and it looks pretty heavy on the potassium – especially in veg. I see they have the same feeding formular for both veg and flower.

I'll have to make time to watch this: https://www.jacksnutrients.com/post/getting-technical-veg-and-flower
 
lusidghost

lusidghost

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
I'm mostly saying that growing under the sun is a little bit different to growing under LED. Can I ask what your EC is once you've mixed everything up and whether you use any other additives?

I had a look, at the Jacks 321 formula and it looks pretty heavy on the potassium – especially in veg. I see they have the same feeding formular for both veg and flower.

I'll have to make time to watch this: https://www.jacksnutrients.com/post/getting-technical-veg-and-flower
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That's funny, earlier in a different thread I brought up a question regarding high levels of nitrogen in flower and how most nutrient lines don't have a veg and flower formula. This is exactly what I was looking for.
 
twentyeight.threefive

twentyeight.threefive

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
I'm mostly saying that growing under the sun is a little bit different to growing under LED. Can I ask what your EC is once you've mixed everything up and whether you use any other additives?

I had a look, at the Jacks 321 formula and it looks pretty heavy on the potassium – especially in veg. I see they have the same feeding formular for both veg and flower.

I'll have to make time to watch this: https://www.jacksnutrients.com/post/getting-technical-veg-and-flower
Click to expand...
Other than Jack's just 1ml/gal of ArmorSi. They've been fed 3/4 strength for quite some time which comes out to 1.6 EC.
 
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