Seeds from feminized seed

Hobbit2 said:
What are the chances of seeds from a fem seed being quality male/fem?
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The same as always. It depends on the quality of the parents and crossing two great parents doesn't always yield great children.

That there is some difference between female seeds from crossing two females and a female seed from a regular male/female crossing, or that fem seeds can't be used for breeding is just a myth. Spread largely by people who are irrationally afraid of it and are in competition with female seed breeders.
 
Observe & Report said:
The same as always. It depends on the quality of the parents and crossing two great parents doesn't always yield great children.

That there is some difference between female seeds from crossing two females and a female seed from a regular male/female crossing, or that fem seeds can't be used for breeding is just a myth. Spread largely by people who are irrationally afraid of it and are in competition with female seed breeders.
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So your saying it is ok to pollinate a fem plant grown from a fem seed with a male? I've been wondering this but couldn't find a good answer.
 
Observe & Report said:
The same as always. It depends on the quality of the parents and crossing two great parents doesn't always yield great children.

That there is some difference between female seeds from crossing two females and a female seed from a regular male/female crossing, or that fem seeds can't be used for breeding is just a myth. Spread largely by people who are irrationally afraid of it and are in competition with female seed breeders.
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Im slowly trying to grasp breeding but its kind of hard for me to learn on my own. Even with books but Im working through the standards. You could probably answer this for me though.

Lets say a person says screw males would it still be possible to lock down
Numerous traits breeding with females?

Also when they say a strain is stable ibl
Or whatever does that mean there will only be one pheno from the seeds or just a couple?
 
charface said:
Lets say a person says screw males would it still be possible to lock down
Numerous traits breeding with females?

Also when they say a strain is stable ibl
Or whatever does that mean there will only be one pheno from the seeds or just a couple?
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Yes, males are not necessary at all. You do the same breeding but being able to directly observe the female flower characteristics of both parents greatly increases the power of your selection.

Stable is a technical term from genetics that means that the genes are homozygous. Genes are formed from two alleles and are split during meiosis (Law of Segregation) with each pollen grain or ovum receiving one or the other allele from each individual gene (Law of Individual Assortment.) When pollen is united with an ovum, the alleles join to form full genes and you get new combinations. Stable means that the genes for the traits you are interested in have the two of the same allele. That indeed makes them "true breeding" and limits the number of different phenotypes you can get. With enough work it is possible to get a line that is true breeding and you always get the pheno you want but lots of inbreeding also reduces the vigor of the plants. Real pros will stabilize two parents then cross them to make true hybrid F1 seeds. Those seeds will be very consistent and have hybrid vigor but F2s will be all over the map.

Generally though, when stoner growers refer to "stable" genetics they are talking about the plants tendency to express intersex traits (hermies!!)

This is a great place to start, even though it is now known that not every trait is tied to a single gene like the color of Mendels pea flowers. While the Punnet square doesn't necessarily apply to the trait you're interested in, the laws still apply. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance
 
Observe & Report said:
Yes, males are not necessary at all. You do the same breeding but being able to directly observe the female flower characteristics of both parents greatly increases the power of your selection.

Stable is a technical term from genetics that means that the genes are homozygous. Genes are formed from two alleles and are split during meiosis (Law of Segregation) with each pollen grain or ovum receiving one or the other allele from each individual gene (Law of Individual Assortment.) When pollen is united with an ovum, the alleles join to form full genes and you get new combinations. Stable means that the genes for the traits you are interested in have the two of the same allele. That indeed makes them "true breeding" and limits the number of different phenotypes you can get. With enough work it is possible to get a line that is true breeding and you always get the pheno you want but lots of inbreeding also reduces the vigor of the plants. Real pros will stabilize two parents then cross them to make true hybrid F1 seeds. Those seeds will be very consistent and have hybrid vigor but F2s will be all over the map.

Generally though, when stoner growers refer to "stable" genetics they are talking about the plants tendency to express intersex traits (hermies!!)

This is a great place to start, even though it is now known that not every trait is tied to a single gene like the color of Mendels pea flowers. While the Punnet square doesn't necessarily apply to the trait you're interested in, the laws still apply. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance
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I feel bad you typed all that and I can only type
"thank you".
I appreciate it
 
I'm on a mission to quash the fem = bad myth. I'm convinced that unrestrained chucking, that is dusting elites with randomly chosen males (i.e. males chosen without comparing their progeny) is what's really bad for the gene pool. You know, what the seed makers who are outspoken about fems are doing.

Also, I like to practice my technical writing and persuasion skills.
 
Observe & Report said:
I'm on a mission to quash the fem = bad myth. I'm convinced that unrestrained chucking, that is dusting elites with randomly chosen males (i.e. males chosen without comparing their progeny) is what's really bad for the gene pool. You know, what the seed makers who are outspoken about fems are doing.

Also, I like to practice my technical writing and persuasion skills.
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I have had terrible experience breeding with feminized plants. While I have had excellent quality feminized plants, I have never had an F1 generation that has been as quality potency wise as the mother plant. I've gone through great lengths to find males and identify desirable traits. I have had better success pollinating bag seed from random MJ then I have had pollinating feminized plants. In fact the only thing that seems to transfer to the F1 generation of a cross between my quality males and a feminized plant is hybrid vigor. I end up getting a large plant with huge buds that have no smell, and no potency at all. Might as well be hemp. If this is truly a myth like you say please point me in the direction of a few grows or breeders that show otherwise as I am curious as to how these breeders are getting their genetics to transfer to the next generation. Most breeders have a Male that transfers genetics in a predictable way so they can create crosses with desirable traits. Same for breeders who use a dominant mom, its usually not a feminized plant.
 
ounevinsmoke said:
If this is truly a myth like you say please point me in the direction of a few grows or breeders that show otherwise as I am curious as to how these breeders are getting their genetics to transfer to the next generation.
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GSC and GG4. Both of these are the crosses of two females, GSC might even be selfed and both of these have tons of crosses that are fire, both regular and female. GSC in particular has many lines derived from it that are wildly popular.

Just because you have two plants with great genetics doesn't mean you're going to get something great when you cross them, m/f or f/f.
 
Observe & Report said:
I'm convinced that unrestrained chucking, that is dusting elites with randomly chosen males (i.e. males chosen without comparing their progeny) is what's really bad for the gene pool.
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Is this something that you would say is specific to cannabis? The reason I ask is because the opposite is true when it comes to nearly every other living organism on planet earth.

Take dogs, as an example. Selective breading within purebred lines inevitably leads to a dilution of the gene pool, which leads to new genetic diseases occurring consistently in purebred dogs. Furthermore, this dilution of the gene pool due to inbreeding has actually lead to the extinction of certain dog breeds over time. Dogs, just like marijuana plants, show hybrid (cross-breed) vigor. The more genetic variation, the better it is for the species. Many scientists are deeply concerned about the restricted gene pools created by pedigrees, and would like to see them opened at least in a controlled manner to allow new genetic material to enter.

It is only those who profit from the pedigrees who oppose this idea; the pedigree breeders.
 
cogitech said:
Is this something that you would say is specific to cannabis? The reason I ask is because the opposite is true when it comes to nearly every other living organism on planet earth.
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No and I'm sorry because "chucking" isn't a precisely defined term. I'm saying that most males used for breeding Cannabis aren't selected for their female flower characteristics but are selected for their veg and male flower characteristics due to the time, expense, and legal exposure of comparing male progeny. It's not as bad as inbreeding depression but it's not as good as it could be, either. Still, the solution to inbreeding depression is outcrossing.

WRT very bad things happening with inbreeding of dogs I do not think it is a fair comparison. With plants you can create more progeny and destroy mutants and undesirables without the ethical implications you run into when breeding mammals.
 
CSI:Humboldt is one of my favorite breeders. My current best cut is CSIH Sweet Pink Stink (bubblegum x urkle) I grew from seed. Since CSIH only breeds with females, it makes easy to find crosses made from fem packs as @ounevinsmoke was referring to.

CSIH Old Family Purple X Underfire https://www.instagram.com/p/BjXc8_LBgzx/?tagged=csihumboldt
https://www.instagram.com/p/BjXbyhoBNJ8/?tagged=csihumboldt
CSIH Cornbread Bubba X Underfire https://www.instagram.com/p/BjXa_e_hOU9/?tagged=csihumboldt

Underfire is UNDERDOG X TRIANGLE KUSH X FIRE OG BX1, and is a regular pack available at https://www.oregoneliteseeds.com/product/underfire-11r/ The above crosses made with it by the same breeder are also regular packs that are still available in some cases: https://neptuneseedbank.com/product/select-genetics-old-family-purple-x-under-fire/

I'm sure you can find many, many more fem crosses in IG if you want, these were just the first two I hit on #csihumboldt@instagram
 
Observe & Report said:
No and I'm sorry because "chucking" isn't a precisely defined term. I'm saying that most males used for breeding Cannabis aren't selected for their female flower characteristics but are selected for their veg and male flower characteristics due to the time, expense, and legal exposure of comparing male progeny. It's not as bad as inbreeding depression but it's not as good as it could be, either. Still, the solution to inbreeding depression is outcrossing.

WRT very bad things happening with inbreeding of dogs I do not think it is a fair comparison. With plants you can create more progeny and destroy mutants and undesirables without the ethical implications you run into when breeding mammals.
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Hacks like me may only choose a father based on its male characteristics, and we may only get lucky once in a while. Hacks like me can be criticized for this behavior, but then again - hacks like me aren't selling seeds so I find it difficult to imagine a negative impact on the global gene pool.

It seems to me, however, that serious breeders will choose fathers by selectively pollinating multiple "elite" female clones with multiple fathers' pollen. They then grow out the various progeny and choose the "best" father. I don't see how this would negatively impact the global gene pool, either.

So, is it the semi-serious, semi-educated "chuckster" breeders who just pick any old male as a father and then sell the seeds for the sole purpose of profit? Is that who is putting the gene pool in jeopardy? I have to wonder how long they could last - their product would be (at least) potentially inferior and almost certainly inconsistent. Reputation is built on having consistently superior product.

Note: I don't have a dog in this race. Just interested in the discussion overall.
 
cogitech said:
It seems to me, however, that serious breeders will choose fathers by selectively pollinating multiple "elite" female clones with multiple fathers' pollen. They then grow out the various progeny and choose the "best" father. I don't see how this would negatively impact the global gene pool, either.
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Most breeders don't talk about their male selection, that is selecting a genotype from multiple siblings. The few that do, like Subcool, are clearly choosing a male from multiple siblings by simply flowering them out and picking the best one. Then they dust a room full of elites and test the seeds. If the results look good and don't intersex they go to market. Of course, some breeders aren't even testing the seeds they make before selling out of fear of missing out on the hype. Breeders selling their packs for $200!

Most of the available commercial reg seeds appear to be made this way.

from https://subcool.com/a-dank-mystery/
Early this year I selected a really gooey purple male Querkle plant and pollinated the Urkle mother and we sent out 420 seeds for testing. This data is still being collected but while I had the Querkle male live with pollen I decided to also pollinate the Apollo-13 mother plant to give me an idea what traits this new male might pass on using a mother plant we know so well.
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Rarely do you even hear a suggestion that breeders are comparing the progeny of male siblings. Bodhi said of Wookie #15 that it took him a long time to find a male that reliably passed on heavy terps. Haven't seen too much else, maybe you can find some?
 
I think once a breeder gets their name in the game and has a venue to sell their gear that's when you better hope they have strong morals because if they want they can get really lazy.
And advertising hype will carry them pretty well.

But I see a time coming when the general public will learn and also a million breeders will run off all but tge most serious.

That's my hope anyway
 
Observe & Report said:
Most breeders don't talk about their male selection, that is selecting a genotype from multiple siblings. The few that do, like Subcool, are clearly choosing a male from multiple siblings by simply flowering them out and picking the best one. Then they dust a room full of elites and test the seeds. If the results look good and don't intersex they go to market. Of course, some breeders aren't even testing the seeds they make before selling out of fear of missing out on the hype. Breeders selling their packs for $200!

Most of the available commercial reg seeds appear to be made this way.

from https://subcool.com/a-dank-mystery/


Rarely do you even hear a suggestion that breeders are comparing the progeny of male siblings. Bodhi said of Wookie #15 that it took him a long time to find a male that reliably passed on heavy terps. Haven't seen too much else, maybe you can find some?
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Scary shit. My "best guess" (as a fucking know-nothing) of how to select the best father plants is better than what most breeders actually do?

I've made the fatal mistake of assumption, once again.
 
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