RW-75 - First Grow - Annihilator / Acapulco Gold

Mechmike said:

Your girls are definitely looking better! It takes a little while to correct a mag deficiency and using foliar spray like you have been should get you there quicker. How is your nutrient water supplied to the root chambers? Internal spray tubes? undercurrent? flood & drain?

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Thanks - your advice was a big help, along with a lot of research and learning - which is what this first grow is about. How long should I keep up the foliar feed? Was going to do it again today but not sure when to stop and let the roots take over. I'm also not sure if the red stem on the previously droopy one will ever green up or not. Any tips there is appreciated.

Water is supplied to the root chamber via 1/2 pvc pipe system with 180 deg misters on both sides pointing towards the pot. It's the basic stinkbud rail system with a couple of design tweaks for better height over the reservoir and larger net pots.

makomachine said:

Thanks - your advice was a big, along with a lot of research and learning - which is what this first grow is about. How long should I keep up the foliar feed? Was going to do it again today but not sure when to stop and let the roots take over. I'm also not sure if the red stem on the previously droopy one will ever green up or not. Any tips there is appreciated.

Water is supplied to the root chamber via 1/2 pvc pipe system with 180 deg misters on both sides pointing towards the pot. It's the basic stinkbud rail system with a couple of design tweaks for better height over the reservoir and larger net pots.

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I would just spray them every 2 or 3 days until the plants are healthy looking. Foliar feeding is a bad idea in the last month of flowering because it can lead to bud rot. Red stems may be genetic but it is one of the indications of mag deficiency. Red leaf veins are almost always one. As it recovers you will notice less red.

I have a similar home made system. I have an 1/2" PVC external manifold with 1/4" tubing running to either side of each net cup. I found some nifty 1/4" thread/barb fittings at http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_categories/103/drip_irrigation_parts/764 and some 1/4x5/16" top hat grommets from http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-pack-1-4-6mm-Top-Hat-Grommet-Seals-Hydroponics-Drip-System-Tubing-SAVE-/221008797341?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item3375269e9d to make them accessible from the top of the root chamber. If I want to check a sprayer for clogging during the grow I just pull it out and look at it when the pump's running.
Otherwise we have essentially the same system. I also have an RO system which is similar to distilled. RO and distilled both need to have appropriate minerals added. My grows suffered until I started making Epsom salt a normal part of the nutrient mix. It may be soil-less hydroponics influences it in some way as well.

Mechmike said:

I would just spray them every 2 or 3 days until the plants are healthy looking. Foliar feeding is a bad idea in the last month of flowering because it can lead to bud rot. Red stems may be genetic but it is one of the indications of mag deficiency. Red leaf veins are almost always one. As it recovers you will notice less red.

I have a similar home made system. I have an 1/2" PVC external manifold with 1/4" tubing running to either side of each net cup. I found some nifty 1/4" thread/barb fittings at http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_categories/103/drip_irrigation_parts/764 and some 1/4x5/16" top hat grommets from http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-pack-1-4-6mm-Top-Hat-Grommet-Seals-Hydroponics-Drip-System-Tubing-SAVE-/221008797341?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item3375269e9d to make them accessible from the top of the root chamber. If I want to check a sprayer for clogging during the grow I just pull it out and look at it when the pump's running.
Otherwise we have essentially the same system. I also have an RO system which is similar to distilled. RO and distilled both need to have appropriate minerals added. My grows suffered until I started making Epsom salt a normal part of the nutrient mix. It may be soil-less hydroponics influences it in some way as well.

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Are you using Epsom salts in conjunction with other supplements like Cal Mag? I believe I've got enough magnesium in the mix now with the richer blend, so left iout the Epsom salts to start. Just curious how much you are running in total.

I'm not really sold on this design just yet due to the very reason you worked around it. Might try that on the next system I build as modularity when the plants are in it is something I'm looking to fix. How many plants are you running in your rails?

makomachine said:

Are you using Epsom salts in conjunction with other supplements like Cal Mag? I believe I've got enough magnesium in the mix now with the richer blend, so left iout the Epsom salts to start. Just curious how much you are running in total.

I'm not really sold on this design just yet due to the very reason you worked around it. Might try that on the next system I build as modularity when the plants are in it is something I'm looking to fix. How many plants are you running in your rails?

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I use 1 tablespoon of Epsom salt per 10 gallons every change and a 1/4 dose of CaliMagic. The reason is that I tried using CalMag only and still ended up with a magnesium deficiency. Also, most good nutrients for both veg and bloom have enough calcium or close to it anyway. A little extra calcium doesn't hurt although you can give them too much and end up with a nutrient lockout. Magnesium is the first nutrient that gets locked out in the presence of excess calcium.

I forgot to ask you what your PH is running. Magnesium is best absorbed in hydro at 5.8 or higher so if you can keep it in the ~5.8 range. 5.7-6.2 is where I try to keep mine. When I first change the nutes I see the PH climb the most so I set it at 5.6. By the next day the PH has normally risen to 6.1-6.2 The PH swings are a good thing because all nutrients are best absorbed at different PH levels.

I only keep 2 plants in each of my veg and bloom rails. Rails are 2' and 3' long. With a medical card in my locale, I'm only allowed 6 plants so I keep a mother in a 2' rail, 2 vegging and 2 flowering in the 3' rails. That gives me 5 plants. The only time I have more is when I have 2 rooted clones which makes 7 for a few days every cycle.

The great thing about building it yourself is that you can modify it anytime! My first incarnation was a bit less than convenient. Every design change I've made over the past 4 years has been to make it easier to use. Tinkering is good. It helps to keep me occupied.

Mechmike said:

I use 1 tablespoon of Epsom salt per 10 gallons every change and a 1/4 dose of CaliMagic. The reason is that I tried using CalMag only and still ended up with a magnesium deficiency. Also, most good nutrients for both veg and bloom have enough calcium or close to it anyway. A little extra calcium doesn't hurt although you can give them too much and end up with a nutrient lockout. Magnesium is the first nutrient that gets locked out in the presence of excess calcium.

I forgot to ask you what your PH is running. Magnesium is best absorbed in hydro at 5.8 or higher so if you can keep it in the ~5.8 range. 5.7-6.2 is where I try to keep mine. When I first change the nutes I see the PH climb the most so I set it at 5.6. By the next day the PH has normally risen to 6.1-6.2 The PH swings are a good thing because all nutrients are best absorbed at different PH levels.

I only keep 2 plants in each of my veg and bloom rails. Rails are 2' and 3' long. With a medical card in my locale, I'm only allowed 6 plants so I keep a mother in a 2' rail, 2 vegging and 2 flowering in the 3' rails. That gives me 5 plants. The only time I have more is when I have 2 rooted clones which makes 7 for a few days every cycle.

The great thing about building it yourself is that you can modify it anytime! My first incarnation was a bit less than convenient. Every design change I've made over the past 4 years has been to make it easier to use. Tinkering is good. It helps to keep me occupied.

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I'm going to add the final batch of 2.5 gallons of water and will supplement them with Epsom salts rather than cal mag. Just need to figure out my ratios.

I have been targeting a PH of 5.8 or 5.9 to start and adjust when I hit 6.2. Good to know the swings inside this range is a good thing. Thanks for all of your help. I think I'm going to cut off a bit off of this rail as it will fit my tent setup better anyway, that's after I get past harvest here hopefully. Any lessons learned and designs are appreciated!

Here's a picture of it a bit over a year ago. The picture isn't real great but you can get a good idea,how the system is made. I'll try to take a picture of it soon.

At that time I was using mostly monochromatic leds. Now I am using mostly 2700k and 4000k whites with added 660nm (switched) and some very small amounts of violet and far red. I still have two rows of bars that have not been upgraded to white. On the top bar I plan to separately switch parallel white and far red strings so I can employ the far red after the stretch is done.

Mechmike said:

Here's a picture of it a bit over a year ago. The picture isn't real great but you can get a good idea,how the system is made. I'll try to take a picture of it soon.

At that time I was using mostly monochromatic leds. Now I am using mostly 2700k and 4000k whites with added 660nm (switched) and some very small amounts of violet and far red. I still have two rows of bars that have not been upgraded to white. On the top bar I plan to separately switch parallel white and far red strings so I can employ the far red after the stretch is done.

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Very cool design with the lighting onto the PVC! How are you draining your rails? The worst part of the design is the open 'waterfall' drain into the tub in mine. I was going to use a bulkhead on the bottom which would allow me to have my tub outside the tent, but was worried about water sitting on the bottom above the lip of the bulkhead.

makomachine said:

Very cool design with the lighting onto the PVC! How are you draining your rails? The worst part of the design is the open 'waterfall' drain into the tub in mine. I was going to use a bulkhead on the bottom which would allow me to have my tub outside the tent, but was worried about water sitting on the bottom above the lip of the bulkhead.

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Thanks. I use a 1/2" bulkhead fitting mounted about 2.5" from the end of the chamber. The chambers drop 3/4" per foot which makes them drain well. I also cut the drain end cap in half, silicone sealed the bottom and attached the top with small plastic hinges I bought at the local hobby shop. That way I can check for and clear any root blockages of the bulkhead fitting at anytime.

Grow 1 / Veg Day 12

PH climbs in daily cycles as nutrients are taken in from what I can tell. Climbed yesterday evening to 6.4. Lowered via PH down to 5.5 last night, back up to 6.1 this morning. Trimmed off a lot of the spotty leaves on the larger Ac Gold plant and foliar fed both Ac Gold plants Epsom salts again this morning. They seem to be on the mend - will continue to watch closely. I'm keeping the tent temperature down to 75F to 71F by keeping e door open - which has lowered nutrient temps down to 71 - 72F. I also positioned the fan for better air circulation around the plants. Starting to 'train Ann plants under screen but not really sure I'm doing it right to be honest. It's early yet, but any suggestions are welcome. I probably need to thin them out a bit in the lower areas, but doing a little at a time at this point to be safe.

I don't know if you have insulated your reservoir or not but it helps to keep nutrient temps lower. The reflective bubble wrap like you have at the base of your plants is what I used.

Mechmike said:

I don't know if you have insulated your reservoir or not but it helps to keep nutrient temps lower. The reflective bubble wrap like you have at the base of your plants is what I used.

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I've got the top insulated, but not the sides as of yet. I actually have a piece cut but hadn't moved it in to the tent yet. Will likely do that this week. I use it when I'm insulating a fermentation when homebrewing - great stuff!

makomachine said:

I've got the top insulated, but not the sides as of yet. I actually have a piece cut but hadn't moved it in to the tent yet. Will likely do that this week. I use it when I'm insulating a fermentation when homebrewing - great stuff!

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It is great stuff. If temps still go above 70 you can always use frozen water bottles, changed out as needed, to keep it around 68. Before I got a small chiller I did that for several weeks in the summer.

It's Neem Oil bath day again. Weekly treatment along with a foliar feed of Epsom salts again today. The Ann is doing well in veg since nutrient change and trimmings of lower growth. The Ac Gold is coming along as well in growth, but still have some rust spots forming on the leaves - and it is clearly trailing the other variety at this point. I've heard from my buddy that his outdoors are doing the same, as far as trailing growth (the mother plants), but the spots are unique to me.

PH has been holding steady at 6.0 over the last few days. Good fan circulation and temps are steady in the tent between 73 - 75F and around 47% humidity.

Sorry I haven't read back to look if you've mentioned it- If I am in the right thread you have but are the spots creeping up the plant bottom to top and is your new growth unusually yellow in the center on the Ag? What strength are you using CalMag sup and with what nutes? Lockout is easy with calcium, look up MULDER'S CHART to get an idea of how easily it effects everything else, not to mention it bonds to itself and becomes insoluble.

Scotch089 said:

Sorry I haven't read back to look if you've mentioned it- If I am in the right thread you have but are the spots creeping up the plant bottom to top and is your new growth unusually yellow in the center on the Ag? What strength are you using CalMag sup and with what nutes? Lockout is easy with calcium, look up MULDER'S CHART to get an idea of how easily it effects everything else, not to mention it bonds to itself and becomes insoluble.

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I hadn't posted exactly how I mixed my nutrients, but it's mixed in a milk jug in qtys below and added until 1100 PPM in distilled water - then PH adjusted. (Stinkbud method was where I got this). I gave it a good shake when I added it so things where good and blended.

Pure blend Pro Grow 550ml
Liquid Karma 175ml
Cal-Mag 250ml

I'll have to take a look for that info - and likely would have done some things differently on the Cal-Mag side considering input to date. Spots do seem to be moving bottom to top.

May try as low as 100ppm bein distilled water. Whenever I hit 250-300ppm I just fought it more and more. Once I cut it out (50-100) things turned around. If things don't look bright after dropping it for a while (help clear away the bonded buildup) then I would up to 300 and see what happens. But chances are you don't need THAT much, personally. Also, my way of not having any issues is running distilled/RO to 5:1 with tap water, I hated the idea of putting unknowns in my water but it was an immediate turn around and the plants tell you what they like. Ended up being about 90-110ppm after I mixed it, just enough base to keep my PH super steady, no crazy flux, never had to adjust PH after that, just weekly res changes. (My tap is 350-400 out of the faucet, all these are on a .7 conversion factor)

Forget to mention if you mix ditch the CalMag altogether only use it weeks 1,2,5,6 of flower.

Scotch089 said:

May try as low as 100ppm bein distilled water. Whenever I hit 250-300ppm I just fought it more and more. Once I cut it out (50-100) things turned around. If things don't look bright after dropping it for a while (help clear away the bonded buildup) then I would up to 300 and see what happens. But chances are you don't need THAT much, personally. Also, my way of not having any issues is running distilled/RO to 5:1 with tap water, I hated the idea of putting unknowns in my water but it was an immediate turn around and the plants tell you what they like. Ended up being about 90-110ppm after I mixed it, just enough base to keep my PH super steady, no crazy flux, never had to adjust PH after that, just weekly res changes. (My tap is 350-400 out of the faucet, all these are on a .7 conversion factor)

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I thought I was battling nitrogen deficiency as well, thus the reason I went 'richer' in my mix this second fill of veg. So you are saying water change and drop to 100ppm? I'm a little concerned that might impact the Ann variety as it's doing well. I'm definitely learning the virtues of a nutrient reservoir per strain...

You may just need to balance your nute mix, look at that hart- Im pretty aure calcium can lock out N. along with every thee mineral in the world. Do what you think is eat for the kids no learned the hard way running multiple strains in one res. never again. If you think you just need to add more base nutes to bring up your ratio to CalMag, do it, may be a different approach to the same results I'm just spitballing here. Best of luck!

Scotch089 said:

You may just need to balance your nute mix, look at that hart- Im pretty aure calcium can lock out N. along with every thee mineral in the world. Do what you think is eat for the kids no learned the hard way running multiple strains in one res. never again. If you think you just need to add more base nutes to bring up your ratio to CalMag, do it, may be a different approach to the same results I'm just spitballing here. Best of luck!

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I appreciate your input - nice to spitball something together anyway. I've decided to split my rails up on two separate frames with different reservoirs and will work on that tonight. Beyond the obvious nutrient problem, the Ann is going to be ready to flower before the Ac Gold anyway. Separate Nutes for separate strains and flowering on their own schedule. Glad I opted for the RW-75's over the 150's as the flexibility is helpful. Will take some work tonight but needs to be done. I'm going to skip the cal mag on the Ac Gold and just use Epsom salts at the tablespoon per 10 gallon recommendation given prior. I'll blend up the pro grow and liquid karma and start low with it as a start.