Questions on Bottled Organic Nutes and Microbes in Sooil

S

shonuff

Active Member
I have a simple question. Ive been a long time reader here and recently started posting here and there. I have looked on the google machine and here and have not found this answer. I dont want to be told not to use liquid organic ferts or teas and this and that and dont want this to become more complicated than it needs to be.

My question is does a bottled organic fert such as botanicare Pure Blend Pro line Grow and Bloom and Cal-Mag kill of any benificials or microbes in soil like I have read Chemical Ferts do?
 
Rrog

Rrog

Well-Known Member
I don't know, personally, but if you'd like to try growing in real soil and stop buying expensive ferts, lemme know.
 
Nullis

Nullis

Moderator
AFAIK, Botanicare Pure Blend Pro series (Grow\Bloom) is derived from all natural, or ingredients that are generally allowed for organic agriculture. They also contain humic acid derived from leonardite, as opposed to synthetic chelating agents. Basically, no they are not going to kill any microbes if used as directed. The thing is that the nutrients are fully solubilized, and more for hydro-organics than growing in soil (also good for quick foliar instead of AACT).

If you're growing in soil and want\need to use liquid organic nutrients, in soil, I would recommend either Earth Juice or General Organics. Earth Juice is perhaps cheaper for larger bottles of the [mostly] full line, but GO also sells their 'Box' which includes decent-sized bottles of Grow\Bloom formulas, along with a bunch of samples of the other products in the line. If you were to go with Earth Juice the most required products are: Grow, Bloom, Catalyst, Microblast, and some Blackstrap molasses. No matter what you're going to want to get some dolomite lime, but especially if you use EJ.

The General Organics line is quite a bit newer than Earth Juice Original, so it probably would cost more for Quart-sized bottles of the entire line. Either way though I would say an initial cost of $35 or less is affordable, and depending on usage should last at least a couple good-sized grows. Now, the difference between the GO and EJ Grow\Bloom formulas versus Pure Blend Pro Grow\Bloom is that the former still actually contain organic matter and they were designed to be conducive to the soil micro-biology.

Botanicare Cal-Mag Plus is an altogether different issue. It probably should be avoided, it provides calcium and magnesium as nitrates; but it also contains EDTA (synthetic chelating agent). All of these compounds are in some way contra-indicated with organics, while it might not influence soil biota at the recommended or lower than application rates; there are just better ways. Like I said before, you should always add dolomite lime to your soil at transplants. It contains mostly calcium, some magnesium and it keeps pH neutralized. You want to add more or less dolomite depending on your soil, your water source and the nutrients you are going to use. Some people use well or dechlorinated tap water that contains a lot of dissolved minerals (particularly calcium\magnesium carbonate) probably don't need to add so much dolomite to the soil. Others using rain\bottled\distilled\filtered water with virtually no dissolved minerals should add more dolomite to the soil, OR use a better supplement like the General Organics CaMg+ which is manufactured biologically.

Don't want to babble too much here, but it certainly can be useful to have one or two good liquid organic nutrient\supplement lines lying around; and keep in mind Earth Juice and GO differ quite a bit although they can also be used in conjunction. Feel free to ask if you have any questions about either line.
 
S

shonuff

Active Member
Nullis said:
AFAIK, Botanicare Pure Blend Pro series (Grow\Bloom) is derived from all natural, or ingredients that are generally allowed for organic agriculture. They also contain humic acid derived from leonardite, as opposed to synthetic chelating agents. Basically, no they are not going to kill any microbes if used as directed. The thing is that the nutrients are fully solubilized, and more for hydro-organics than growing in soil (also good for quick foliar instead of AACT).

If you're growing in soil and want\need to use liquid organic nutrients, in soil, I would recommend either Earth Juice or General Organics. Earth Juice is perhaps cheaper for larger bottles of the [mostly] full line, but GO also sells their 'Box' which includes decent-sized bottles of Grow\Bloom formulas, along with a bunch of samples of the other products in the line. If you were to go with Earth Juice the most required products are: Grow, Bloom, Catalyst, Microblast, and some Blackstrap molasses. No matter what you're going to want to get some dolomite lime, but especially if you use EJ.

The General Organics line is quite a bit newer than Earth Juice Original, so it probably would cost more for Quart-sized bottles of the entire line. Either way though I would say an initial cost of $35 or less is affordable, and depending on usage should last at least a couple good-sized grows. Now, the difference between the GO and EJ Grow\Bloom formulas versus Pure Blend Pro Grow\Bloom is that the former still actually contain organic matter and they were designed to be conducive to the soil micro-biology.

Botanicare Cal-Mag Plus is an altogether different issue. It probably should be avoided, it provides calcium and magnesium as nitrates; but it also contains EDTA (synthetic chelating agent). All of these compounds are in some way contra-indicated with organics, while it might not influence soil biota at the recommended or lower than application rates; there are just better ways. Like I said before, you should always add dolomite lime to your soil at transplants. It contains mostly calcium, some magnesium and it keeps pH neutralized. You want to add more or less dolomite depending on your soil, your water source and the nutrients you are going to use. Some people use well or dechlorinated tap water that contains a lot of dissolved minerals (particularly calcium\magnesium carbonate) probably don't need to add so much dolomite to the soil. Others using rain\bottled\distilled\filtered water with virtually no dissolved minerals should add more dolomite to the soil, OR use a better supplement like the General Organics CaMg+ which is manufactured biologically.

Don't want to babble too much here, but it certainly can be useful to have one or two good liquid organic nutrient\supplement lines lying around; and keep in mind Earth Juice and GO differ quite a bit although they can also be used in conjunction. Feel free to ask if you have any questions about either line.
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Thank you for the clear well thought out answer exactly what I was wondering. I will be switching to super soil and I have some PBPG PBPB and cal-mag if the super soil runs out late that is why I was wondering if you could feed with liquid organic ferts thats all. thanks again for answering my question with out being condescending.
 
neonknight420

neonknight420

Well-Known Member
shonuff said:
I have a simple question. Ive been a long time reader here and recently started posting here and there. I have looked on the google machine and here and have not found this answer. I dont want to be told not to use liquid organic ferts or teas and this and that and dont want this to become more complicated than it needs to be.

My question is does a bottled organic fert such as botanicare Pure Blend Pro line Grow and Bloom and Cal-Mag kill of any benificials or microbes in soil like I have read Chemical Ferts do?
Click to expand...
Yes it will piss off the microbeastys.
 
S

shonuff

Active Member
neonknight420 said:
Yes it will piss off the microbeastys.
Click to expand...
So thats the opposite answer of the guy above. So what is the actual answer? I have noticed if I spill a little PBPG on a table ot something there will be salt residue left shortly after drying is this part of it also just because of the salt build up even though botanicare claims to use organic ingredients?
 
Rrog

Rrog

Well-Known Member
The microbes are designed to work and provide for the plant. Flooding the system with raw nutrients will likely disrupt that relationship and the microbe profile will likely change into something else. Who knows. I'd rather save my cash and feed naturally. Bottled ferts of any kind are like infant formula. Not real mothers milk.
 
Nullis

Nullis

Moderator
Uhh, ookay. Bottled nutrients are far from the same and that is quite frankly a terrible analogy.

Pure Blend Pro isn't the best example of a liquid organic nutrient for soil and is simply a one part nutrient; really designed\best suited to hydro-organics.

Like I said, Earth Juice or General Organic lines are best suited to soil and living organics. The fact is these liquid product lines are totally conducive to living soil and\or are biologically active. I am sure others are, too, but those are certainly in my personal experience. There is nothing about a liquid formulation\product that makes it inherently not 'organic' or bad for microbes.

Furthermore there is absolutely no reason why liquid organic nutrients\supplements cannot supplant a high quality base soil with dry amendments. Think it is fair enough to put some trust in established horticultural companies\products designed by plant biologists and other experts who have done the R&D.

Some people have lives: families; jobs; children; girlfriends; etc.
 
Rrog

Rrog

Well-Known Member
Nullis said:
Think it is fair enough to put some trust in established horticultural companies\products designed by plant biologists and other experts who have done the R&D.
Click to expand...
Why does no one outside of Weedville use these products? You over-estimate their objectivity as scientists and underestimate their pure commercial orientation to prey on stoners.
 
Nullis

Nullis

Moderator
Really? Plenty of people outside of "Weedville" use Earth Juice (which has been around since the early 90's) and even General Organics to grow things besides weed.

People\institutions\companies grow produce hydroponically. I would know a thing or two about certain aspects of the horti industry, but luckily I have nothing to prove to you.
 
Rrog

Rrog

Well-Known Member
Glad you're comfortable with all of this. Weedville remains full of non-science techniques and products. MJ growers are susceptible and preyed upon. Not so much in commercial horticulture.

I just wonder why people continue to buy and use pretty labelled bottles when EWC and so many natural sources are all around us for free or nearly free.
 
Nullis

Nullis

Moderator
Here is the thing, though, and I am sorry to burst your bubble but virtually every legitimate hobby\product genre or what have you has it's non-science techniques and products...even in commercial horticulture! (and elsewhere, some gas stations have signs up warning people not to talk on their cell phones while pumping).
Anybody who wants to get into anything for virtually any reason is susceptible to being preyed upon.

Unfortunately what it seems to boil down to is that you are biased and bigoted; and perhaps feel some kind of elitism or fanaticism when it comes to your methods, sourcing all of your own ingredients and not paying a dime for them or whatever- and that is great, really. But, you assume entirely too much about how other people grow here and even why they do as they do, apparently. You assume that everybody actually could source all of their ingredients locally, 'naturally', for free... and that it would be convenient and efficient to do so. No matter- if they aren't doing it your way they aren't doing it the 'right' way? (which is ridiculous). Furthermore, this is the freaking internet (let me know if I need to elaborate on that point).

Pretty labels were never the determining factor in which plant\soil products to try (liquid or otherwise). It was the ingredients, any other pertinent composition info and the price, mostly. Undoubtedly spent more money on equipment: HID lighting systems, bulbs, back-up bulbs, ventilation, carbon filters, electricity, a generator, even high quality genetics, etc. than on bagged soil, liquid organic and dry amendments.
For example, we also use Espoma Tone products indoors, on cannabis and other plants. Espoma products are great, entirely natural and predominately industry by-products: not expensive. The liquid plant\soil foods I use are really not too expensive either and are not just for cannabis. We're growing other things indoors basically the same way (Citrus mostly at the moment).

Haven't you ever seen a non-Cannabis-centric gardening magazine like Urban Gardener, or been on another gardening\horticultural web forum like say GardenWeb?
 
prosperian

prosperian

Well-Known Member
Nullis said:
Here is the thing, though, and I am sorry to burst your bubble but virtually every legitimate hobby\product genre or what have you has it's non-science techniques and products...even in commercial horticulture! (and elsewhere, some gas stations have signs up warning people not to talk on their cell phones while pumping).
Anybody who wants to get into anything for virtually any reason is susceptible to being preyed upon.

Unfortunately what it seems to boil down to is that you are biased and bigoted; and perhaps feel some kind of elitism or fanaticism when it comes to your methods, sourcing all of your own ingredients and not paying a dime for them or whatever- and that is great, really. But, you assume entirely too much about how other people grow here and even why they do as they do, apparently. You assume that everybody actually could source all of their ingredients locally, 'naturally', for free... and that it would be convenient and efficient to do so. No matter- if they aren't doing it your way they aren't doing it the 'right' way? (which is ridiculous). Furthermore, this is the freaking internet (let me know if I need to elaborate on that point).

Pretty labels were never the determining factor in which plant\soil products to try (liquid or otherwise). It was the ingredients, any other pertinent composition info and the price, mostly. Undoubtedly spent more money on equipment: HID lighting systems, bulbs, back-up bulbs, ventilation, carbon filters, electricity, a generator, even high quality genetics, etc. than on bagged soil, liquid organic and dry amendments.
For example, we also use Espoma Tone products indoors, on cannabis and other plants. Espoma products are great, entirely natural and predominately industry by-products: not expensive. The liquid plant\soil foods I use are really not too expensive either and are not just for cannabis. We're growing other things indoors basically the same way (Citrus mostly at the moment).

Haven't you ever seen a non-Cannabis-centric gardening magazine like Urban Gardener, or been on another gardening\horticultural web forum like say GardenWeb?
Click to expand...
Finally a guy in organics that doesn't bleed EWC when they cut themselves! Wish more people had your understanding of the "other shoe". Just because some have found the secret to SS and Organic Teas, does not mean that it is the only way. We all have learning curves and too many on this forum preach "it's one way or f-off" Personally, I'm not ready to play in poo water just yet, but the day will come soon, I promise.
 
dolamic

dolamic

Well-Known Member
A man once told the Buddha, "I want happiness."
The Buddha replied, "First remove "I", that's ego.
Then remove "want", that's desire. And now all
you're left with is happiness."

It's not how you get to your destination, but the journey.
Some people like different things and there are many paths
to take to get to the one that works for you specifically.
Some will be the same, some will be different. Enjoy the
diversity in life :D
 
Rrog

Rrog

Well-Known Member
Do you grow in soil dolamic :) See, I think that's funny. :) We're all growing and that's great.

I'd like to think I'm primarily simply an advocate of a natural soil. Secondarily, I'm not a fan of most fertilizers. Organic amendments I fully support. One man's amendment is another man's fertilizer, I understand.

And I'm not here advocating spending more money on fertilizers. I'm simply pointing out that you can go local. I'm just making people aware that you can make better "fertilizer" at home and for free in many instances. Sure not as convenient, but maybe not too hard.

Everyone here is very cool, and I certainly am not looking to hurt feelings. Especially now because I'm very medicated.
 
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