Plant needs?

Go go n chill

Well-Known Member
greensand is a great addition to the coots mix, as i found it was lacking in K a bit because 1) kelp breaks down so quickly, and 2) kelp is 1% K by weight... so 1/2c per cu.ft. contains very little K at all... which makes it difficult to grow large flowers. i'm working with a coots mix right now (just planted into it) that runs amendments at 2/3c per cu.ft + greensand and the usual rock dust suspects. I've found with coots mix that yields were below expectation, but quality is off the charts of course. I started topdressing a bloom mix in flower around week 3 (3-7-4 NPK) about 1/3c per plant and got some measurable yield increases... now i'm trying to see how heavy i can push the mix. if my 2/3c per cu.ft. goes well with no issues, i'm gonna make one with 1c per cu.ft. also, i left the oyster shell at 1/2 cup, because i don't want over buffering of the soil pH.
What is in your NPK mix? I’m hopig to find top dressings that are quick release. So I will have it in case of an emergency so far the amendments I have been using are working I’ll post some sample pictures of what I use Photos pictures are worth 1000 words
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
its a premade blend by Organically Done called Bloom 3-7-4, just typical "organic" inputs. They're micronized very finely. mix with some compost and topdress and they seem to break down pretty quickly... by harvest the entire topdress of compost + amendments has a mass of roots grown into it.
 

Go go n chill

Well-Known Member
its a premade blend by Organically Done called Bloom 3-7-4, just typical "organic" inputs. They're micronized very finely. mix with some compost and topdress and they seem to break down pretty quickly... by harvest the entire topdress of compost + amendments has a mass of roots grown into it.
I’m using DOWN TO EARTH organics .... it’s all in boxes, looks like meal and what I’m using isn’t water soluble for the most part.
 

Kushash

Well-Known Member
What is in your NPK mix? I’m hopig to find top dressings that are quick release. So I will have it in case of an emergency so far the amendments I have been using are working I’ll post some sample pictures of what I use Photos pictures are worth 1000 words
For a quick fix of individual deficiencies during the grow.
These are my preferences.
GO cal/mag+ for Calcium. Gypsum is good but is to slow if there is a deficiency and should have been applied a few weeks before the deficiency started, I usually add some gypsum also when applying the cal/mag for a deficiency.
Epsom salt for magnesium including foliar.
Blood Meal for Nitrogen. (Not favored by many)
High phosphorus bat guano for phosphorus.
Many ways to do it. I like the DTE products also.
Happy Growing!
 

Go go n chill

Well-Known Member
For a quick fix of individual deficiencies during the grow.
These are my preferences.
GO cal/mag+ for Calcium. Gypsum is good but is to slow if there is a deficiency and should have been applied a few weeks before the deficiency started, I usually add some gypsum also when applying the cal/mag for a deficiency.
Epsom salt for magnesium including foliar.
Blood Meal for Nitrogen. (Not favored by many)
High phosphorus bat guano for phosphorus.
Many ways to do it. I like the DTE products also.
Happy Growing!
I like the DTE stuff more and more, the more I learn the more I understand how I can use their line of products. There are so many products. I just started learning about release times and nutes. Things like urea.... WIN nutes and soluble nutes. What is the gypsum for? Calcium? Here is my list, with amounts
 

Attachments

Go go n chill

Well-Known Member
"boosts" that I use are topdressings around week 3 of flower, which break down during 4-7th weeks. Mainly just go for NPK of "low"-"high"-"medium" in number, like 3-7-4 for example. but it all depends on if you think it needs it. I started using bloom enhancer like that because my soil mix was not producing the yields i knew plants were capable of, they were fading a lot to soon, and you could tell the mix was not complete. Now i'm trying to enhance the soil nutrition more by going with 2/3c of amendment per cu.ft. with certain amendments so I don't have to worry about topdressing. if they show no negative signs, i'm gonna do a mix with 1c per cu.ft. of certain amendments and see how that goes.

you can get into bokashi/fermentation which extracts nutrients in a liquid form and you can feed those to try and give a boost. also AACT with quality EWC will contain chelated and solubilized nutrients that will feed plants, and also boost microbial activity which will results in more decomp, and faster nutrient delivery (speculating here).

also, well timed use of auxins, salicylic acid, and cytokinins will also have an effect on flower production and speed, but you need to apply these product with a specific purpose, and not just as an "additive". I would recommend researching what those particular hormones do and that will give you a better understanding of when to apply them in small doses.
greensand is a great addition to the coots mix, as i found it was lacking in K a bit because 1) kelp breaks down so quickly, and 2) kelp is 1% K by weight... so 1/2c per cu.ft. contains very little K at all... which makes it difficult to grow large flowers. i'm working with a coots mix right now (just planted into it) that runs amendments at 2/3c per cu.ft + greensand and the usual rock dust suspects. I've found with coots mix that yields were below expectation, but quality is off the charts of course. I started topdressing a bloom mix in flower around week 3 (3-7-4 NPK) about 1/3c per plant and got some measurable yield increases... now i'm trying to see how heavy i can push the mix. if my 2/3c per cu.ft. goes well with no issues, i'm gonna make one with 1c per cu.ft. also, i left the oyster shell at 1/2 cup, because i don't want over buffering of the soil pH.
You are running your doses about just little heavier than me.... .5 cup or so
 

Growitpondifarm

Well-Known Member
greensand is a great addition to the coots mix, as i found it was lacking in K a bit because 1) kelp breaks down so quickly, and 2) kelp is 1% K by weight... so 1/2c per cu.ft. contains very little K at all... which makes it difficult to grow large flowers. i'm working with a coots mix right now (just planted into it) that runs amendments at 2/3c per cu.ft + greensand and the usual rock dust suspects. I've found with coots mix that yields were below expectation, but quality is off the charts of course. I started topdressing a bloom mix in flower around week 3 (3-7-4 NPK) about 1/3c per plant and got some measurable yield increases... now i'm trying to see how heavy i can push the mix. if my 2/3c per cu.ft. goes well with no issues, i'm gonna make one with 1c per cu.ft. also, i left the oyster shell at 1/2 cup, because i don't want over buffering of the soil pH.

Great Info Shluby,

On the greensand, are you using this stuff in hopes of seeing it consumed on the initial run or more in hopes of having it available long term? I’m doing research, on both cannabis and general gardening, I’ve taken away that the greensand may not be readily available for he first few runs.

I am 100% going to make a rich ammenedment mix for top dress for when I switch everything into flower. My last mix was fine during the veg period. By the time I had observed the defiency in flow it appeared to be too late for the amendments to become available to the plant.

Also, be careful with that High P Seabird guano. That stuff burnt my plants pretty bad as I top dressed with 3 tbsp once I saw what looked like a P defiency. Nothing like the nute burns I observed with synthetic nutes but I had gone into the organic world assuming you could put as many amendments into/on the soil without negetive effects but found this not to be the case.


Any other ideas for a slower release k-centric amendment ?
 

Go go n chill

Well-Known Member
Great Info Shluby,

On the greensand, are you using this stuff in hopes of seeing it consumed on the initial run or more in hopes of having it available long term? I’m doing research, on both cannabis and general gardening, I’ve taken away that the greensand may not be readily available for he first few runs.

I am 100% going to make a rich ammenedment mix for top dress for when I switch everything into flower. My last mix was fine during the veg period. By the time I had observed the defiency in flow it appeared to be too late for the amendments to become available to the plant.

Also, be careful with that High P Seabird guano. That stuff burnt my plants pretty bad as I top dressed with 3 tbsp once I saw what looked like a P defiency. Nothing like the nute burns I observed with synthetic nutes but I had gone into the organic world assuming you could put as many amendments into/on the soil without negetive effects but found this not to be the case.


Any other ideas for a slower release k-centric amendment ?
I was under the same impression about the greensand.
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Great Info Shluby,

On the greensand, are you using this stuff in hopes of seeing it consumed on the initial run or more in hopes of having it available long term? I’m doing research, on both cannabis and general gardening, I’ve taken away that the greensand may not be readily available for he first few runs.

I am 100% going to make a rich ammenedment mix for top dress for when I switch everything into flower. My last mix was fine during the veg period. By the time I had observed the defiency in flow it appeared to be too late for the amendments to become available to the plant.

Also, be careful with that High P Seabird guano. That stuff burnt my plants pretty bad as I top dressed with 3 tbsp once I saw what looked like a P defiency. Nothing like the nute burns I observed with synthetic nutes but I had gone into the organic world assuming you could put as many amendments into/on the soil without negetive effects but found this not to be the case.


Any other ideas for a slower release k-centric amendment ?
yeah you can definitely overdo the amendments in organics if you're not careful (supersoil being the poster child for this as even sub says don't put small plants into it cause it will burn the fuck out of them). Regarding the greensand, it does not all get used up in the first run, but i definitely saw yield improvements in the first run... I'm not sure why people say that it takes a few runs to see the results. but maybe it was coincidence, i can't say for sure. you could definitely plan on amending it once every 2 or 3 runs in your mix if you want. experiment and keep good data logged so you can compare the results of different runs when you make changes. I have not seen any ill effects using that bloom mix and i've gone as high as 1/3 cup on a plant which is like 6 tablespoons, but it has other inputs in it as well so it's not all high P ingredients. I'm working on formulating my own topdress complex though so I don't have to rely on buying another bag of "x". My current thoughts are crab meal, fishbone meal, kelp, gypsum, and dried powdered banana peels. probably something like 1 part crab, 2 parts fishbone, 1 part gypsum, 2 parts kelp, and 1/2 part banana peels. this will get me in that low-high-medium NPK range for a final product. I think ideally though, i will weigh the inputs and put the mix together based on weight rather than volume. Maybe i'll make one mix by volume, and one mix by weight, and run a side by side with a few plants and see which one performs better.

EDIT: also, sul-po-mg, or langbenite by DTE, is another slower release mineral complex, though i don't think it's as slow as greensand. but it is a mined mineral, so its pretty dense.
 
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Growitpondifarm

Well-Known Member
Anyone have any experience with langbeinite? Seems like it offers a slower release of K along with some sulphur and magnesium.

Would this be something I could add to my minerals ?
 

Growitpondifarm

Well-Known Member
yeah you can definitely overdo the amendments in organics if you're not careful (supersoil being the poster child for this as even sub says don't put small plants into it cause it will burn the fuck out of them). Regarding the greensand, it does not all get used up in the first run, but i definitely saw yield improvements in the first run... I'm not sure why people say that it takes a few runs to see the results. but maybe it was coincidence, i can't say for sure. you could definitely plan on amendment it once every 2 or 3 runs in your mix if you want. experiment and keep good data logged so you can compare the results of different runs when you make changes. I have not seen any ill effects using that bloom mix and i've gone as high as 1/3 cup on a plant which is like 6 tablespoons, but it has other inputs in it as well so it's not all high P ingredients. I'm working on formulating my own topdress complex though so I don't have to rely on buying another bag of "x". My current thoughts are crab meal, fishbone meal, kelp, gypsum, and dried powdered banana peels. probably something like 1 part crab, 2 parts fishbone, 1 part gypsum, 2 parts kelp, and 1/2 part banana peels. this will get me in that low-high-medium NPK range for a final product. I think ideally though, i will weigh the inputs and put the mix together based on weight rather than volume. Maybe i'll make one mix by volume, and one mix by weight, and run a side by side with a few plants and see which one performs better.

This. I want to have my own mix as I hate relying on premade mixes.
 

Go go n chill

Well-Known Member
yeah you can definitely overdo the amendments in organics if you're not careful (supersoil being the poster child for this as even sub says don't put small plants into it cause it will burn the fuck out of them). Regarding the greensand, it does not all get used up in the first run, but i definitely saw yield improvements in the first run... I'm not sure why people say that it takes a few runs to see the results. but maybe it was coincidence, i can't say for sure. you could definitely plan on amending it once every 2 or 3 runs in your mix if you want. experiment and keep good data logged so you can compare the results of different runs when you make changes. I have not seen any ill effects using that bloom mix and i've gone as high as 1/3 cup on a plant which is like 6 tablespoons, but it has other inputs in it as well so it's not all high P ingredients. I'm working on formulating my own topdress complex though so I don't have to rely on buying another bag of "x". My current thoughts are crab meal, fishbone meal, kelp, gypsum, and dried powdered banana peels. probably something like 1 part crab, 2 parts fishbone, 1 part gypsum, 2 parts kelp, and 1/2 part banana peels. this will get me in that low-high-medium NPK range for a final product. I think ideally though, i will weigh the inputs and put the mix together based on weight rather than volume. Maybe i'll make one mix by volume, and one mix by weight, and run a side by side with a few plants and see which one performs better.

EDIT: also, sul-po-mg, or langbenite by DTE, is another slower release mineral complex, though i don't think it's as slow as greensand. but it is a mined mineral, so its pretty dense.
What size is your typical pot during flower?
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
What size is your typical pot during flower?
just depends on the size of the plant. I'm finding for medium sized plants that 5 gal is getting to be too small with ideal growth, and plants are being very rootbound by the end of flower and depleting all nutrients, so 7 gal would be my target range for medium sized plants. for larger plants i'd go for 10 gal. this is with plastic containers. with fabrics, i'd say 10 gal for medium and 15 gal for large, because of the fact that the plants lose some of the soil volume around the outer portions of the container due to it being hard to keep that area adequately saturated, which is the purpose of the fabric pots in the first place... air pruning roots.

I'm currently experimenting 5 gals vs 7 gals (plastic) in flower right now, and will quantify the results at the end of the flowering cycle. they are about 2 weeks in, and have 8 weeks to go. i will be topdressing this coming weekend (they'll be 21 days), and then letting them run their course for the rest of flower. I have three plants in 5 gals, one in 7 gal, and will take the average of the three 5 gal against the weight of the 7 gal. I'm pretty confident the 7 gal is going to win... but we will see :) But i'm planning on going no smaller than 7 gal in the near future. FWIW, these are in pumice SIPs and you can see how I set them up on my grow thread (link in my sig). Set up tutorial is a few pages back from the most recent page. I'm really liking the pumice SIPs and will likely be running those when i'm not utilizing my no-tills.

I wanted to switch to all no till, but i just don't have the veg space currently. In the future, and in a new space, i'm going to have 200 gal no till beds each in their own chamber, so i can veg or flower each bed independently of one another. that is the dream lol.
 

Go go n chill

Well-Known Member
"boosts" that I use are topdressings around week 3 of flower, which break down during 4-7th weeks. Mainly just go for NPK of "low"-"high"-"medium" in number, like 3-7-4 for example. but it all depends on if you think it needs it. I started using bloom enhancer like that because my soil mix was not producing the yields i knew plants were capable of, they were fading a lot to soon, and you could tell the mix was not complete. Now i'm trying to enhance the soil nutrition more by going with 2/3c of amendment per cu.ft. with certain amendments so I don't have to worry about topdressing. if they show no negative signs, i'm gonna do a mix with 1c per cu.ft. of certain amendments and see how that goes.

you can get into bokashi/fermentation which extracts nutrients in a liquid form and you can feed those to try and give a boost. also AACT with quality EWC will contain chelated and solubilized nutrients that will feed plants, and also boost microbial activity which will results in more decomp, and faster nutrient delivery (speculating here).

also, well timed use of auxins, salicylic acid, and cytokinins will also have an effect on flower production and speed, but you need to apply these product with a specific purpose, and not just as an "additive". I would recommend researching what those particular hormones do and that will give you a better understanding of when to apply them in small doses.
I looked up the auxins and acids you mentioned... I need to read more but they look hormonal and not really organic. IDK am I wrong? One website mentioned it might be good for garden flowers but you might not want to consume the product. I’m just reading and learning
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
I looked up the auxins and acids you mentioned... I need to read more but they look hormonal and not really organic. IDK am I wrong? One website mentioned it might be good for garden flowers but you might not want to consume the product. I’m just reading and learning
Well, that's because they are hormones... Plants produce these hormones on their own; it's part of their gene expression in their regulatory system of growth. If you are extracting your hormones from a natural source like: coconut water, aloe vera, willow twigs, seed sprouts or whatever the natural source... do you see a harm in that? That is up for you to decide. Now this process begs some questions... Since plants produce these on their own, do they need us to give them these hormones? No. Can we manipulate plant growth with well timed, small applications of the right hormone? Yes.

For example... When you take a clone, and apply a rooting product (typically salicylic acid like that found in aspen buds, willow branches, or aloe vera) you are using hormones to get a stem to produce roots. Another example, auxins are responsible for why plants curve their stem growth towards the light, and why roots curve their growth down into the soil; both are a response to the presence of auxins. Abscisic acid is responsible in catalyzing the mechanism for opening and closing of stomata.

Make informed decisions about what you use in your garden. Be smart about what you use on your plants and if you're not comfortable or unsure with something, then don't use it. Ultimately though... you need to be careful how you interpret what you read, and who the source is and what they're trying to achieve. Most of the studies that are done are with plants that have a great economical value, and the products they tend to use on those plants are things that we as organic gardeners can source from a natural form, they don't need to be created in a lab. For example, Round Up is mainly auxins, (yes there are other things in it as well), but the auxins are concentrated so high they exhaust the plant by basically growing itself to death.

Keep on reading though. This is a great topic to understand if you like to grow basically anything :) I am definitely not well informed, but I am still learning!
 

Go go n chill

Well-Known Member
Well, that's because they are hormones... Plants produce these hormones on their own; it's part of their gene expression in their regulatory system of growth. If you are extracting your hormones from a natural source like: coconut water, aloe vera, willow twigs, seed sprouts or whatever the natural source... do you see a harm in that? That is up for you to decide. Now this process begs some questions... Since plants produce these on their own, do they need us to give them these hormones? No. Can we manipulate plant growth with well timed, small applications of the right hormone? Yes.

For example... When you take a clone, and apply a rooting product (typically salicylic acid like that found in aspen buds, willow branches, or aloe vera) you are using hormones to get a stem to produce roots. Another example, auxins are responsible for why plants curve their stem growth towards the light, and why roots curve their growth down into the soil; both are a response to the presence of auxins. Abscisic acid is responsible in catalyzing the mechanism for opening and closing of stomata.

Make informed decisions about what you use in your garden. Be smart about what you use on your plants and if you're not comfortable or unsure with something, then don't use it. Ultimately though... you need to be careful how you interpret what you read, and who the source is and what they're trying to achieve. Most of the studies that are done are with plants that have a great economical value, and the products they tend to use on those plants are things that we as organic gardeners can source from a natural form, they don't need to be created in a lab. For example, Round Up is mainly auxins, (yes there are other things in it as well), but the auxins are concentrated so high they exhaust the plant by basically growing itself to death.

Keep on reading though. This is a great topic to understand if you like to grow basically anything :) I am definitely not well informed, but I am still learning!
I will
 

Kushash

Well-Known Member
I like the DTE stuff more and more, the more I learn the more I understand how I can use their line of products. There are so many products. I just started learning about release times and nutes. Things like urea.... WIN nutes and soluble nutes. What is the gypsum for? Calcium? Here is my list, with amounts
Yes. Gypsum is a source of calcium and sulfur, if there is a deficiency cal/mag works faster. I like adding some gypsum at the end of veg, mine respond well from what I can tell. I also use it when mixing soils, I believe it is used by most who mix their own soil.
One of my favorite DTE products is Bio Live. I will use it in a soil mix and also as a top dressing in mid veg.
 

Go go n chill

Well-Known Member
Yes. Gypsum is a source of calcium and sulfur, if there is a deficiency cal/mag works faster. I like adding some gypsum at the end of veg, mine respond well from what I can tell. I also use it when mixing soils, I believe it is used by most who mix their own soil.
One of my favorite DTE products is Bio Live. I will use it in a soil mix and also as a top dressing in mid veg.
I just looked at Bio-live, looks good..... beneficials and nutrients in one organic box... hmmmm
 
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