Parents must choose vaccines or jail

medicineman

medicineman

New Member
But, most generally, Orwellian State = Patriot Act, phone-tapping, waterboarding, and stealing my tax money to kill Iraqis. That's evil stuff. The people giving these vaccines are probably all good people, it's just the information--how safe they are--thats disagreed upon.

Oddly enough, I agree completely. The vaccinations need to be certified safe by a third party.
 
AmythePothead

AmythePothead

Active Member
Mercury is not in most vaccines. It was stopped being put in them awhile ago.
This is a really hot topic for me.
i dont vax my kids. I have my reasons for not wanting to inject a bunch of poison and chemicals into their bodies...that is my choice as a parent. There are ways around getting in trouble like in that video. You fill out an exemption form, and they cant do anything else about it. Vaccines for chicken pox protect from ONE strain of CP. there are thousands. Mercury was removed from the shots, because it was suspected of giving kids autism (among other reasons) Vaccines contain formaldahyde...do you want that in YOUR body?? Regardless of whether you believe in vaccinations or not, it should still be MY choice as a mom. What happens if they force you to vax, and your kid dies from the vaccine? (which does happen more than you realize) then what, they say OOPS???? :roll:
 
Chrisuperfly

Chrisuperfly

Well-Known Member
AmythePothead said:
Mercury is not in most vaccines. It was stopped being put in them awhile ago.
This is a really hot topic for me.
i dont vax my kids. I have my reasons for not wanting to inject a bunch of poison and chemicals into their bodies...that is my choice as a parent. There are ways around getting in trouble like in that video. You fill out an exemption form, and they cant do anything else about it. Vaccines for chicken pox protect from ONE strain of CP. there are thousands. Mercury was removed from the shots, because it was suspected of giving kids autism (among other reasons) Vaccines contain formaldahyde...do you want that in YOUR body?? Regardless of whether you believe in vaccinations or not, it should still be MY choice as a mom. What happens if they force you to vax, and your kid dies from the vaccine? (which does happen more than you realize) then what, they say OOPS???? :roll:
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Agree, I think the best vaccination is taking the damn video games away and throwing the kid outside into the fresh air, imho. :blsmoke:
 
7xstall

7xstall

Well-Known Member
GoldenAss said:
Hey--I'm going to give up a little to my ignorance on just what you were talking about. I don't know the issue, and if there is significant proof to give parents objections merit, I fully support them, and an investigation should be launched.

I'm from Wisconsin. Rural Wisconsin. Some of my neighbors are Amish, religious whack jobs that won't drive cars, but will ride in them, and BS like that. A few years ago, an Amish girl was real sick. She needed some intense medicine, but the Amish don't believe in medicine/technology. She would have died, but the State jumped in and said, "Fuck you, you are worthless parents." And she lived. And thank no-God for the State willing to tell parents where to go when they fail their children.

I assumed it was more like that, and in that respect made a mistake. But the point is, children are not property, of anyone. Parents should have full authority, right up to the point where the child suffers harm because of it.

You attacked my positions, but not specifically. So I cannot respond to anything else.

But, most generally, Orwellian State = Patriot Act, phone-tapping, waterboarding, and stealing my tax money to kill Iraqis. That's evil stuff. The people giving these vaccines are probably all good people, it's just the information--how safe they are--thats disagreed upon.
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again, there is never an excuse for the state to intervene on behalf of children unless the parents are intentionally and purposefully harming their children.

you argue that the parents were somehow neglectful because they shun modern medicine. who are you to demand that they discard their faith in the Sovereign Creator of the universe in favor of modern medicine? what gives your faith in medicine any level of superiority to faith in anything else that one might have, especially faith in the God that made everything with only His thoughts? my belief is that He uses medicine so i wouldn't avoid treatment but it is their natural right to do so as an affirmation of THEIR faith.

you said the girl "would have died" as thought it is fact but it is not fact, it is at best speculation. you don't know. and even if she had died that would not have been a failure of the parents at all. catastrophic illness kills people every day. is that your fault or my fault? people live and people die. they have the absolute right to trust in God for all things and for the state to play god is wrong. you can look down and make fun all you want but it doesn't change the reality that children belong to their parents. not like an external property but rather as an extension of themselves.








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medicineman

medicineman

New Member
7xstall said:
again, there is never an excuse for the state to intervene on behalf of children unless the parents are intentionally and purposefully harming their children.

you argue that the parents were somehow neglectful because they shun modern medicine. who are you to demand that they discard their faith in the Sovereign Creator of the universe in favor of modern medicine? what gives your faith in medicine any level of superiority to faith in anything else that one might have, especially faith in the God that made everything with only His thoughts? my belief is that He uses medicine so i wouldn't avoid treatment but it is their natural right to do so as an affirmation of THEIR faith.

you said the girl "would have died" as thought it is fact but it is not fact, it is at best speculation. you don't know. and even if she had died that would not have been a failure of the parents at all. catastrophic illness kills people every day. is that your fault or my fault? people live and people die. they have the absolute right to trust in God for all things and for the state to play god is wrong. you can look down and make fun all you want but it doesn't change the reality that children belong to their parents. not like an external property but rather as an extension of themselves.








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Look, If God is truly interested in our wellbeing, don't you think he would approve of saving someones life through medical procedures, after all, didn't he give man free will to learn how to help people in need, (Doctors)? So if God so truly loves us, wouldn't he rather see your child survive to lessen the hurt to you. Saying that it is Gods will to let your child die when a medical procedure would save it is absolutely idiotic, and any parent that would do that, needs to be taken out behind the woodshed and beaten to within an inch of their lives, maybe then some common sense (sans religious idiocy) could filter through. Just MHO.
 
7xstall

7xstall

Well-Known Member
AmythePothead said:
Mercury is not in most vaccines. It was stopped being put in them awhile ago.
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that's completely incorrect. you have to specifically ask for the non-Thimerosal and non-(m)ethyl-Hg versions that are in wide use from old stock. also, testing does find Hg in many currently produced vaccines.

DadTalk: Merck Knew Mercury Levels High in Vaccinations, Memo Says

NIAID-Supported Studies on Mercury, Thimerosal, and Vaccine Safety, NIAID Fact Sheet

http://www.dentalmercury.com/pdf/papers/Clarkson Hg Review.pdf

A Chemist's Laboratory Notebook: Flu Vaccine and Thiomersal...

http://www.mercola.com/2002/mar/30/mercury_vaccine.htm

Vaccination Liberation Information


AmythePothead said:
There are ways around getting in trouble like in that video. You fill out an exemption form, and they cant do anything else about it. Vaccines for chicken pox protect from ONE strain of CP. there are thousands. Mercury was removed from the shots, because it was suspected of giving kids autism (among other reasons) Vaccines contain formaldahyde...do you want that in YOUR body?? Regardless of whether you believe in vaccinations or not, it should still be MY choice as a mom. What happens if they force you to vax, and your kid dies from the vaccine? (which does happen more than you realize) then what, they say OOPS???? :roll:
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very true, there are quite a few complications from vaccinations every year.

the point is, since when do Americans have to fill out paperwork to justify their actions? since when are citizens on trial, by default, whenever they don't want to comply with non-Constitutional edicts? there is absolutely no room in a free society for forced medical treatment of any kind.

(btw, just a nit pick thing, there are only two strains of chickenpox :) )







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7xstall

7xstall

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
Look, If God is truly interested in our wellbeing, don't you think he would approve of saving someones life through medical procedures, after all, didn't he give man free will to learn how to help people in need, (Doctors)? So if God so truly loves us, wouldn't he rather see your child survive to lessen the hurt to you. Saying that it is Gods will to let your child die when a medical procedure would save it is absolutely idiotic, and any parent that would do that, needs to be taken out behind the woodshed and beaten to within an inch of their lives, maybe then some common sense (sans religious idiocy) could filter through. Just MHO.
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read the post. all of it. especially the part where i said, "my belief is that He uses medicine". i never said it is God's will to let your kid die when a medical treatment could save him.

it looks like, once again, you don't respect diversity or the right of individuals to have faith but you can't force everyone to be like you. just as you have the right to throw your children to the mercy of medicine others have the right to throw their children to the mercy of God.






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AmythePothead

AmythePothead

Active Member
No there are more than two. There are many different Chicken pox virus'. Not that it really matters, but my point is the vaccine does not guarantee you wont get the chicken pox. and it can actually GIVE them to you.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
7xstall said:
read the post. all of it. especially the part where i said, "my belief is that He uses medicine". i never said it is God's will to let your kid die when a medical treatment could save him.

it looks like, once again, you don't respect diversity or the right of individuals to have faith but you can't force everyone to be like you. just as you have the right to throw your children to the mercy of medicine others have the right to throw their children to the mercy of God.






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If some religious fanatic had a kid with cholera and was dragging it around in public with no intention of getting it treatment, with total disregard for the public safety and claiming that it was Gods will, you would support that? Are you nucking futz? Treatable diseases need to be treated for the public safety, and if that means the state must step in to counter a nutball parent with the Gods will philosophy, then that is paramount to maintaing a safe environment for the general good of society. Sometimes parents are not the final word on public safety. There are some pretty nutty religious fanatics out there, are you one?
 
Kant

Kant

Well-Known Member
AmythePothead said:
No there are more than two. There are many different Chicken pox virus'. Not that it really matters, but my point is the vaccine does not guarantee you wont get the chicken pox. and it can actually GIVE them to you.
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vaccines are just weakened versions of whatever we're vaccinating against. It's introduced so our immune system can fight off a this weak version and basically make a blue print on how to fight this kind of disease so when a stronger version comes along our immune system will already know how to fight it.
 
Lacy

Lacy

New Member
Exactly. This is the only part I can comment on.
Kant said:
vaccines are just weakened versions of whatever we're vaccinating against. It's introduced so our immune system can fight off a this weak version and basically make a blue print on how to fight this kind of disease so when a stronger version comes along our immune system will already know how to fight it.
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ViRedd

ViRedd

New Member
medicineman said:
If some religious fanatic had a kid with cholera and was dragging it around in public with no intention of getting it treatment, with total disregard for the public safety and claiming that it was Gods will, you would support that? Are you nucking futz? Treatable diseases need to be treated for the public safety, and if that means the state must step in to counter a nutball parent with the Gods will philosophy, then that is paramount to maintaing a safe environment for the general good of society. Sometimes parents are not the final word on public safety. There are some pretty nutty religious fanatics out there, are you one?
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So then, we should lock up those inflicted with HIV and AIDS?

We DO have quarantine laws on the books. So, if someone had cholera, or some other serious commutable disease, we can use the law for that. But we aren't talking here about people who HAVE a disease. We are talking about parents who won't allow their children to get a vaccination and an over-reaching state that is trying to force them to.

Vi
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
ViRedd said:
So then, we should lock up those inflicted with HIV and AIDS?

We DO have quarantine laws on the books. So, if someone had cholera, or some other serious commutable disease, we can use the law for that. But we aren't talking here about people who HAVE a disease. We are talking about parents who won't allow their children to get a vaccination and an over-reaching state that is trying to force them to.

Vi
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And is it not the point of vaccinations to prevent diseases, diseases like the one I described. So if a parent (a sociopathic religious zealot) that refuses the vaccine, has his child get the disease, don't you suppose that same nutbag would refuse treatment for his child (Gods will), and by doing so, expose more sane humans to the disease. Remember the old axiom, "God helps those that help themselves", that may apply in the vaccine wars. I think it is imperative to have public health be a part of the governments duties. One parent with an attitude could start an epidemic.
 
7xstall

7xstall

Well-Known Member
the thing is, med, there can't be an epidemic when only the minority are not vaccinated. they are the only ones who will suffer if there is a resurgence of those diseases (mostly brought in by illegals). on top of the fact that there can't be epidemics due to a tiny minority opting out of vaccinations, the other fact is that you will have natural immunity once you go through the illness. yes - vaccination could prevent suffering, BUT we shouldn't force people to do things our way. i've had vaccinations against tetanus, small pox, polio, etc..., but it's not impossible to survive the flu (right, Vi!) and lots of other stuff on your own.

we've been here a long time, we've made it this far. don't tell me i need the government to dictate my medical decisions to me or my family until after they control the borders, get a volume discount for billions in prescription drugs they buy, close down NASA and do other common sense things that need to be done! listening to the government about health care would be like asking the town fool for business advice.

there is no risk to ANYONE else if i chose not to be vaccinated.






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medicineman

medicineman

New Member
7xstall said:
the thing is, med, there can't be an epidemic when only the minority are not vaccinated. they are the only ones who will suffer if there is a resurgence of those diseases (mostly brought in by illegals). on top of the fact that there can't be epidemics due to a tiny minority opting out of vaccinations, the other fact is that you will have natural immunity once you go through the illness. yes - vaccination could prevent suffering, BUT we shouldn't force people to do things our way. i've had vaccinations against tetanus, small pox, polio, etc..., but it's not impossible to survive the flu (right, Vi!) and lots of other stuff on your own.

we've been here a long time, we've made it this far. don't tell me i need the government to dictate my medical decisions to me or my family until after they control the borders, get a volume discount for billions in prescription drugs they buy, close down NASA and do other common sense things that need to be done! listening to the government about health care would be like asking the town fool for business advice.

there is no risk to ANYONE else if i chose not to be vaccinated.






.
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Hypothetical: You are an adult and have not had Mumps. The neighbor kids dad said no mumps vaccination. The kid hangs out at your house and gets mumps and you get infected. Your fertility is ended and you can no longer have children plus you almost die from the disease, as your balls swell up to the size of basketballs. Now tell me you wouldn't be pissed at that dad for not getting his son vaccinated against Mumps.~LOL~.
 
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