Opinions on my soil recycling amendments

WeedFreak78

WeedFreak78

Well-Known Member
I'll start out by saying this isn't 100% organic, if this needs moving, I'm fine with that, just figured the largest knowledge base is in here.

I'm going back to soil indoors after years of hydro and want to setup a soil recycling system so I dont have to keep buying it. Looking to build a RO water only soil. I won't use town water because of water quality issues due to ongoing work on the towns water mains.

I've already started running 50/50 Ocean forest/ Happy frog plus 25% rice hulls, fed with fish, or fish and seaweed, fert. I'll be dumping 6-8 5 gal buckets of this used mix into a large tote to mix and let cook every 5 weeks. This is what I've come up with, based off what I already have, everything's at package application rates except alfalfa meal @ twice recommended application rate to balance the final NPK.

All measurements based per 5gal container, maybe 0.6cuft of soil?

Alfalfa meal 2-0-2@1C
Bone meal 4-12-0@1Tbls.
Blood meal 12-0-0@1/2 Tbls
Kelp meal 1-0.1-2@5 Tbls
Greensand 0-0-0.1@1/3C
Rock phosphate 0-3-0@4Tsp
Azomite 0-0-0.2@10Tbls
Worm castings 1-0-0@25% volume
Rice hulls@ 15-20%volume, or as needed...

That gives me a final NPK so far of 3.5-2.4-1.0, if I'm figuring it right.
Amendments are Espoma brand, except for azomite and kelp meal which are Down to Earth brand.
I also have Espoma garden tone 3-4-4, Kelp meal 1-0-2, and potash 0-0-60 available.

I need some lime, or something. Recommendations? Just go with dolemite? Anything else?
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
You have to think about which ammendments are used up and gone per crop, and which last in the soil more than one crop, for example greensand, and rock phosphate, and also the soil consistency over time will compact so need to keep it fluffy and breathing, which comes down more to experience over time of what a good soil how you like should feel like.

--before using a mix I always add at least 1TBSP/gal. dolomite lime powder to new or used soil.
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
All measurements based per 5gal container, maybe 0.6cuft of soil?

Alfalfa meal 2-0-2@1C
Bone meal 4-12-0@1Tbls.
Blood meal 12-0-0@1/2 Tbls
Kelp meal 1-0.1-2@5 Tbls
Greensand 0-0-0.1@1/3C
Rock phosphate 0-3-0@4Tsp
Azomite 0-0-0.2@10Tbls
Worm castings 1-0-0@25% volume
Rice hulls@ 15-20%volume, or as needed...

Everything is just my opinion...
I would use half the amount of Alfalfa Meal.
Why so little Bone meal, 1tablespoon per 5gallons of soil mix? I would use 1-2TBSP's per gallon soil.
Rock Phosphate, the same, why so little? only about a heaping tablespoon per 5gal soil? I would use 1TBSP per gallon soil mix. It is not readily available and will be in the soil for a while. You can use more if you have long term soil plan, it will not be available quickly and you don't have to add it every time.
Blood meal, I would keep it half as much as bone meal at the amount I recommended, is what I would do, if I used blood meal.
The rest, the amounts look alright.
and I always add 2TBSP's of dolomite lime powder per gal. soil mix if straight peat was used as base, 1TBSP/gal. any other soil mix base or when reusing.
 
Richard Drysift

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
I have the same problem with unusable chloramine laden tap water myself. I use dehumidifier water as a primary water source in the summer which is basically distilled water with low ppms much like RO water. To avoid absorption issues due to a lack of macros I add General organics cal-mag+ at 6 drops per gal every watering until week 7. Rainwater needs nothing extra added and is the best water source you can use; already has macros and is active with microbes. Put out a bucket under an awning next time it rains; much easier than running a wasteful RO or going to Walmart to fill jugs.
Your mix will get even better after a few recycles. All this stuff takes a long time to break down; months or even years for the greensand and SRP. I would add some extra perlite for aeration which is super important in organics. D lime is good but I suggest also adding some garden gypsum as well. Also add in green cannabis leaf to your recycling mix globally if you have any from a recent harvesting or pruning. Canna leaves disappear like magic in 30 days which is the same amount of time required to cook all the other stuff you added in. Cannabis contains nearly everything that cannabis needs; go figure.
Honestly you don't have to be exact with the amounts as long as you add similar quantities of everything. Diversity is more important than strict adherence to ratios. You can add in more worm castings; up to 50%. The best thing you can do right now IMO is to start up a worm bin. Sometimes all I need to add to my mix to recharge it these days is EWC and the fresher it is the better it works.
 
WeedFreak78

WeedFreak78

Well-Known Member
Richard Drysift said:
I have the same problem with unusable chloramine laden tap water myself. I use dehumidifier water as a primary water source in the summer which is basically distilled water with low ppms much like RO water. To avoid absorption issues due to a lack of macros I add General organics cal-mag+ at 6 drops per gal every watering until week 7. Rainwater needs nothing extra added and is the best water source you can use; already has macros and is active with microbes. Put out a bucket under an awning next time it rains; much easier than running a wasteful RO or going to Walmart to fill jugs.
Your mix will get even better after a few recycles. All this stuff takes a long time to break down; months or even years for the greensand and SRP. I would add some extra perlite for aeration which is super important in organics. D lime is good but I suggest also adding some garden gypsum as well. Also add in green cannabis leaf to your recycling mix globally if you have any from a recent harvesting or pruning. Canna leaves disappear like magic in 30 days which is the same amount of time required to cook all the other stuff you added in. Cannabis contains nearly everything that cannabis needs; go figure.
Honestly you don't have to be exact with the amounts as long as you add similar quantities of everything. Diversity is more important than strict adherence to ratios. You can add in more worm castings; up to 50%. The best thing you can do right now IMO is to start up a worm bin. Sometimes all I need to add to my mix to recharge it these days is EWC and the fresher it is the better it works.
Click to expand...
We don't have chloramine, my water problem is the sediment that's getting turned up on a regular basis from the water main work. I get shitty, rusty, dirty water at least once a week and when it does run clean, the tds and PH is all overt the place. Nothing comes inside my room from outside, no water, dirt, compost, nothing! I used to do that, them had a major gnat infestation i traced back to bringing in my outdoor compost, never again. I already am composing my old leaves, etc inside and am planning on getting a worm bin going soon. I use rice hulls instead of perlite, its renewable and a natural insect deterrent.
 
WeedFreak78

WeedFreak78

Well-Known Member
Johnei said:
All measurements based per 5gal container, maybe 0.6cuft of soil?

Alfalfa meal 2-0-2@1C
Bone meal 4-12-0@1Tbls.
Blood meal 12-0-0@1/2 Tbls
Kelp meal 1-0.1-2@5 Tbls
Greensand 0-0-0.1@1/3C
Rock phosphate 0-3-0@4Tsp
Azomite 0-0-0.2@10Tbls
Worm castings 1-0-0@25% volume
Rice hulls@ 15-20%volume, or as needed...

Everything is just my opinion...
I would use half the amount of Alfalfa Meal.
Why so little Bone meal, 1tablespoon per 5gallons of soil mix? I would use 1-2TBSP's per gallon soil.
Rock Phosphate, the same, why so little? only about a heaping tablespoon per 5gal soil? I would use 1TBSP per gallon soil mix. It is not readily available and will be in the soil for a while. You can use more if you have long term soil plan, it will not be available quickly and you don't have to add it every time.
Blood meal, I would keep it half as much as bone meal at the amount I recommended, is what I would do, if I used blood meal.
The rest, the amounts look alright.
and I always add 2TBSP's of dolomite lime powder per gal. soil mix if straight peat was used as base, 1TBSP/gal. any other soil mix base or when reusing.
Click to expand...
All my measurements were based off the package. I noticed other recipes used much more of those, as well as others, also. I was staying conservative because it will be recycled over, at least, a few times, if not kept going in perpetual use.
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
The package doesn't take into account all the other ammendments, is why it's never good to follow it to their max recommendation, in my opinion. When reusing conservative is best way.
 
WeedFreak78

WeedFreak78

Well-Known Member
Picked up some more stuff, bag of Coast of Maine lobster compost, crab shell@ 2-3-0, granular humic, oyster shell, granular mykos and another bag of lime, which apparently I had already bought some. I think I want to get some seabird and/or bat guano and that'll be it, just need to figure out which one(s).

So using both dol. lime with oyster and crab shell, what should I be mixing those at? I also think I might need a little more K to stay close a 3-2-1 NPK, any recommendations? I know keeping that ratio isn't as critical with good amendments, should I even bother trying to stay close?

I'll also be mixing in old leaf , branch and root material, from previous grows and pruning. I did a test and they mostly break down in about 2 weeks, so they should be completely broken down with a 5 week cook. I've been trying to find red wigglers locally to throw in, but I think I'm just going to order some.
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
Chop up branch material to smallest size possible for quicker breakdown.

No you shouldn't worry about NPK ratios, there is so much more in organic compounds that keep plants healthy besides NPK.

Save the granular myco for transplanting time putting some in the hole under root ball.
 
WeedFreak78

WeedFreak78

Well-Known Member
New recipe. I read through dozens of variations of soil mixes comparing the ones that were based on either pre amended or used amended soils, mostly "super soil" type recipes. The ones that used bases like promix seemed to use way more amendments so i skipped those.

Base soil is a USED 50/50 mix of fox farm ocean forest(1.5cuft) and happy frog(2.0cu ft), with 20% rice hulls. Approximate amount of USED soil being amended = 4cu ft, 30 gal, 80lbs

Amendments:

Appx. 10lbs EWC (0.75cu ft)
Appx. 10lbs lobster compost (0 .75cu ft)
3 cups bone meal
3 cups blood meal
2 cups kelp meal
2 cups alfalfa meal
1 cup oyster shell
1 cup crab shell
0.5 cup dolomite lime
1 cup rock phosphate
0.5 cup azomite
0.5 cup Greensand
1Tbsp granular humic acid
1 Tbsp mykos
Also,
1 cup Espoma garden- tone:
Derived from: Hydrolyzed Feather Meal, Pasteurized Poultry
Manure, Bone Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Greensand, Humates,
Sulfate of Potash, and Sulfate of Potash Magnesia.
*Contains 2.2% Slow Release Nitrogen.
ALSO CONTAINS NON PLANT FOOD INGREDIENTS:
Contains 624 colony forming units (CFU’s) per gram of the
following species:
Bacillus licheniformis . . . . . . . . . . . . 208 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus megaterium . . . . . . . . . . . . . 208 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus pumilus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 208 CFU’s per gram

Rice hulls as needed, maybe some more peat or coco if I think it's still too heavy.
Oh, old leaves and cut up roots and branches, a whole brown paper bag full.

Cook for 4-5 weeks.

Thoughts?
 
Buba Blend

Buba Blend

Well-Known Member
WeedFreak78 said:
New recipe. I read through dozens of variations of soil mixes comparing the ones that were based on either pre amended or used amended soils, mostly "super soil" type recipes. The ones that used bases like promix seemed to use way more amendments so i skipped those.

Base soil is a USED 50/50 mix of fox farm ocean forest(1.5cuft) and happy frog(2.0cu ft), with 20% rice hulls. Approximate amount of USED soil being amended = 4cu ft, 30 gal, 80lbs

Amendments:

Appx. 10lbs EWC (0.75cu ft)
Appx. 10lbs lobster compost (0 .75cu ft)
3 cups bone meal
3 cups blood meal
2 cups kelp meal
2 cups alfalfa meal
1 cup oyster shell
1 cup crab shell
0.5 cup dolomite lime
1 cup rock phosphate
0.5 cup azomite
0.5 cup Greensand
1Tbsp granular humic acid
1 Tbsp mykos
Also,
1 cup Espoma garden- tone:
Derived from: Hydrolyzed Feather Meal, Pasteurized Poultry
Manure, Bone Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Greensand, Humates,
Sulfate of Potash, and Sulfate of Potash Magnesia.
*Contains 2.2% Slow Release Nitrogen.
ALSO CONTAINS NON PLANT FOOD INGREDIENTS:
Contains 624 colony forming units (CFU’s) per gram of the
following species:
Bacillus licheniformis . . . . . . . . . . . . 208 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus megaterium . . . . . . . . . . . . . 208 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus pumilus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 208 CFU’s per gram

Rice hulls as needed, maybe some more peat or coco if I think it's still too heavy.
Oh, old leaves and cut up roots and branches, a whole brown paper bag full.

Cook for 4-5 weeks.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I have a 1st time soil recipe here (don't want to hijack) https://www.rollitup.org/t/plants-in-my-1st-soil-recipe-are-still-alive-after-5-days.945380/
Started with used ffof. 2 weeks into flowering my plants are praying in it. I had no clue if it would work. I shared the recipe after I put plants in it, not before. I wanted to live or die with my 1st recipe. Results will be known in about 8 weeks.
 
WeedFreak78

WeedFreak78

Well-Known Member
Buba Blend said:
I have a 1st time soil recipe here (don't want to hijack) https://www.rollitup.org/t/plants-in-my-1st-soil-recipe-are-still-alive-after-5-days.945380/
Started with used ffof. 2 weeks into flowering my plants are praying in it. I had no clue if it would work. I shared the recipe after I put plants in it, not before. I wanted to live or die with my 1st recipe. Results will be known in about 8 weeks.
Click to expand...
How'd you come up with your measurements? The range I've seen between the recipes I've looked at amazes me. For 4cuft of base soil , based off all the mixes i read, I came up with ranges of 3/4c to 3c of kelp meal, 1/2c to 4c of alfalfa meal, 1/8 to 3c of dolomite, 1/2 to 3 cups of greensand, and 1/8 to 1 cup of azomite. I've literally been reading all day and converting all these mixes over to common measurements, the best i could, so I could compare them. Some are in gallons of dirt, some are by weight, some are by cuft, some just say X amount large bags of soil....i probably should write the conversions here.

1 Gallon=231cu in=0.13 cu ft=about 3lbs(depends on soil)
1 cu ft=7.6 gallons=about 23lbs
1.5 cu ft=11.27 gallons=about 34lbs
2.0 cu ft=15 gallons=about 45lbs
8 bags(vauge "super soil" base)=12-16 cu ft =92-105 gallons=about 320-360lbs

According to a couple online retailers,
FFOF is 1.5 cu ft and 40lbs, works out to just over 11 gallons
FFHF is 2.0 cu ft and 45lbs,works out to about 15 gallons
Roots Organics is 1.5cu ft and 35 lbs,works out to just over 11 gallons

For some of the amendment application rates I tried basing it off the "per 100sq ft" rates on the package. Using 4" soil depth I figured there's 33cu ft, around 250 gallons or 750 lbs. Then I broke each one down to amounts per single cu ft, gallon or pound. Same with any recipes, I broke them down. Then figured rates for my soil amount.

Then I guessed a little after the ranges I came up with...:wall:
 
T

toomp

Well-Known Member
WeedFreak78 said:
I'll start out by saying this isn't 100% organic, if this needs moving, I'm fine with that, just figured the largest knowledge base is in here.

I'm going back to soil indoors after years of hydro and want to setup a soil recycling system so I dont have to keep buying it. Looking to build a RO water only soil. I won't use town water because of water quality issues due to ongoing work on the towns water mains.

I've already started running 50/50 Ocean forest/ Happy frog plus 25% rice hulls, fed with fish, or fish and seaweed, fert. I'll be dumping 6-8 5 gal buckets of this used mix into a large tote to mix and let cook every 5 weeks. This is what I've come up with, based off what I already have, everything's at package application rates except alfalfa meal @ twice recommended application rate to balance the final NPK.

All measurements based per 5gal container, maybe 0.6cuft of soil?

Alfalfa meal 2-0-2@1C
Bone meal 4-12-0@1Tbls.
Blood meal 12-0-0@1/2 Tbls
Kelp meal 1-0.1-2@5 Tbls
Greensand 0-0-0.1@1/3C
Rock phosphate 0-3-0@4Tsp
Azomite 0-0-0.2@10Tbls
Worm castings 1-0-0@25% volume
Rice hulls@ 15-20%volume, or as needed...

That gives me a final NPK so far of 3.5-2.4-1.0, if I'm figuring it right.
Amendments are Espoma brand, except for azomite and kelp meal which are Down to Earth brand.
I also have Espoma garden tone 3-4-4, Kelp meal 1-0-2, and potash 0-0-60 available.

I need some lime, or something. Recommendations? Just go with dolemite? Anything else?
Click to expand...
Take a sample of used soil get it tested and find out what you need to add
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
granular humic and adding mycorrhizal fungi is not necessary, worm castings contains both in abundance, as will your used soil. The soil will become humus over time as well. Can enjoy it with some pita bread.
 
Buba Blend

Buba Blend

Well-Known Member
WeedFreak78 said:
How'd you come up with your measurements? The range I've seen between the recipes I've looked at amazes me. For 4cuft of base soil , based off all the mixes i read, I came up with ranges of 3/4c to 3c of kelp meal, 1/2c to 4c of alfalfa meal, 1/8 to 3c of dolomite, 1/2 to 3 cups of greensand, and 1/8 to 1 cup of azomite. I've literally been reading all day and converting all these mixes over to common measurements, the best i could, so I could compare them. Some are in gallons of dirt, some are by weight, some are by cuft, some just say X amount large bags of soil....i probably should write the conversions here.

1 Gallon=231cu in=0.13 cu ft=about 3lbs(depends on soil)
1 cu ft=7.6 gallons=about 23lbs
1.5 cu ft=11.27 gallons=about 34lbs
2.0 cu ft=15 gallons=about 45lbs
8 bags(vauge "super soil" base)=12-16 cu ft =92-105 gallons=about 320-360lbs

According to a couple online retailers,
FFOF is 1.5 cu ft and 40lbs, works out to just over 11 gallons
FFHF is 2.0 cu ft and 45lbs,works out to about 15 gallons
Roots Organics is 1.5cu ft and 35 lbs,works out to just over 11 gallons

For some of the amendment application rates I tried basing it off the "per 100sq ft" rates on the package. Using 4" soil depth I figured there's 33cu ft, around 250 gallons or 750 lbs. Then I broke each one down to amounts per single cu ft, gallon or pound. Same with any recipes, I broke them down. Then figured rates for my soil amount.

Then I guessed a little after the ranges I came up with...:wall:
Click to expand...
I approached it with less math and more of a feel.
1st I gathered enough amendments and then started guessing quantities.
I did a lot of reading on recipes and often read from successful recipe makers that less is more.

Does used ffof need the same amount of amendments as a soil built from scratch?
I figured my used ffof had some nutes and colonies still in it from the last grow and may not have needed the larger quantities of amendments.
My plants are smaller than my usual plants making it easier to keep them happy, and I exaggerated, 2 -3 are praying on avg, I said it above like they are all praying, but they are all reacting well to the soil. I have a side by side with my soil and new ffof. They are looking similar, maybe 2 in my soil look better but my seeds have unstable genetics so it could just be healthier seeds rather than my soil.
 
WeedFreak78

WeedFreak78

Well-Known Member
Buba Blend said:
I approached it with less math and more of a feel.
1st I gathered enough amendments and then started guessing quantities.
I did a lot of reading on recipes and often read from successful recipe makers that less is more.

Does used ffof need the same amount of amendments as a soil built from scratch?
I figured my used ffof had some nutes and colonies still in it from the last grow and may not have needed the larger quantities of amendments.
My plants are smaller than my usual plants making it easier to keep them happy, and I exaggerated, 2 -3 are praying on avg, I said it above like they are all praying, but they are all reacting well to the soil. I have a side by side with my soil and new ffof. They are looking similar, maybe 2 in my soil look better but my seeds have unstable genetics so it could just be healthier seeds rather than my soil.
Click to expand...
Idk, that's my issue, i don't want to overload on anything, luckily it's (kinda) hard with organics. The first round of plants I grew in 5 gal buckets would've done fine in 3gal nursery pots, so I know the soil still has stuff in it. I'm in the middle of round 2 now, still with just mixed bag soil, and I've vegged them out more, but still not big enough to fully use all of the 5gal, but I'm getting close. I hoping that by the time I start using this mix, I'm putting in plants that'll end up around 4ft and can take full advantage of this mix.
 
Buba Blend

Buba Blend

Well-Known Member
WeedFreak78 said:
Idk, that's my issue, i don't want to overload on anything, luckily it's (kinda) hard with organics. The first round of plants I grew in 5 gal buckets would've done fine in 3gal nursery pots, so I know the soil still has stuff in it. I'm in the middle of round 2 now, still with just mixed bag soil, and I've vegged them out more, but still not big enough to fully use all of the 5gal, but I'm getting close. I hoping that by the time I start using this mix, I'm putting in plants that'll end up around 4ft and can take full advantage of this mix.
Click to expand...
I'm a newbie to amendments. Went organic inside and out. The one place I saw a major bad impact from adding an amendment was outside. I added 0-5-0 bat guano to my hedges a foxtail fern and my lawn. The lawn survived. The hedges and fox tail leaves got fried but will recover. A section of the hedges that I did not add it to looks great. The soil out there is heavy clay with lots of P. Lesson learned.
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
(I don't know what kind of dose you used which could of been why if too strong, but just a thought for you, if you would of brewed the guano in a tea, the nutrient elements would of been 'softened' into more plant available forms and mostly packed inside live and dead microbe bodies, not free floating in the solution, and plants would not burn. This bullshit talk I read around here, weedfreak knows where I mean, about how compost teas are useless and just top dress for same effect, these tests were not done with guanos, were not done with complex concoctions, were not done on indoor potted plants where microbe life cycles and diversity are different and impeded moreso compared to outdoor natural soil and much more disagreement I have with that statement I won't get into. )
 
Buba Blend

Buba Blend

Well-Known Member
Johnei said:
(I don't know what kind of dose you used which could of been why if too strong, but just a thought for you, if you would of brewed the guano in a tea, the nutrient elements would of been 'softened' into more plant available forms and mostly packed inside live and dead microbe bodies, not free floating in the solution, and plants would not burn. This bullshit talk I read around here, weedfreak knows where I mean, about how compost teas are useless and just top dress for same effect, these tests were not done with guanos, were not done with complex concoctions, were not done on indoor potted plants where microbe life cycles and diversity are different and impeded moreso compared to outdoor natural soil and much more disagreement I have with that statement I won't get into. )
Click to expand...
I'm looking forward to doing teas starting sometime in Sept. Want to do a small worm farm too. Right now my garage is the only place I can brew or keep the farm and temps average 92 degrees and sometimes is higher in there. I don't think I can brew till it hits the low 80's.
 
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