Nonbelievers, how did you lose your religion?

cannabineer said:

I prefer "I don't know, which means ...I don't know what".

As for telling random chance from a subtle nonrandom signal, I agree that that is very hard. Apart from objective reasons, the one thing that makes it so hard is that humans have quite a talent for perceiving pattern where there is none, then using an unconscious confirmation bias to stack the deck in favor of their "insight".
When you say "something should not be disregarded because it's implausible", you've done a good job capturing my core sentiments. just because most ascriptions of pattern to a supernatural influence are wrong doe not guarantee that all are. With time, effort and an unfailing commitment to disciplined thought, i'm hoping that apparent instances of the supernatural, like a friend who has startlingly clear and correct memories that predate [genderless pronoun's] birth, can be brought into the fold of the understood.

Since I cannot rule out the actions of random chance, and since I am keenly aware for our human talent for apophenia to both generate and buttress our suspicions that something from beyond is reaching through to /into us, I am strongly inclined at this time to prefer random chance as one of the core engines and properties of our existence. cn

Click to expand...

Yes, and more technically, still, it is not chance or Luck. It's probablity. Chance is random. Probablitity is mathmatical. So, in the quntum diffinition, it is not impossible to turn water to wine. It is just very, very improbable. It is not completely improbable to observe actual Cold Fusion. It is, however, currently impossible to reproduce it. Also, there have never been any actual miracles, but the probablilty of seeing something unknowable exists. We tend to believe each other, alas.

So, the quantum structures (if any) in the brain, may be able to align probabilities to create luck. We may find who manages the hidden hand is none other than Self.

Like I said, both sides use the same tactics...

It just does not seem as if you are to yourself and others that may feel the same way as you, cause obviously you are writing it. I remember way back in the day when I would do the same thing, stand up for heph when he was a believer and all you all would say is " why were we playing the HURT card"... which I too would defend as a legitimate attack on our shared beliefs...

How is your statement different from mine if they both were doing the same thing?

Just because you are an atheist, does that mean a "hurt card" does not apply to you?

I dont get it with you people, doing the same thing as believers do, yet you play it as if it is nothing alike...

mindphuk said:

How exactly would my post be considered playing the hurt card? Pointing out how personal attacks are not productive logical arguments is not the same as whining about being mercilessly attacked for my views. Criticizing a member for following someone around and harassing them by going OT just to make a personal insult is not pulling the hurt card, it's a legitimate complaint. If you honestly think that I'm playing it, you are welcome to expand on this and explain it but until you do, I will just say bullshit.

Click to expand...

How is that different from what sativahigh was doing to me?

why did you never step in like you have now?

is it because of my beliefs that you never wanted to step in?

I can see how you stick to your own kind per se... that is not cool and that is biased to say the least man.... I thought you people were all about equal shit... now it seems you only cover your own people... selfish pricks

and also, how is that not the hurt card?

Padawanbater2 said:

What's so hard to understand Oly?

CWE complains Hep in a personal way, attacking his character, not any of the arguments that support his beliefs (because he can't). It is nothing short of a personal attack, which has led to him actually following Hep around multiple threads doing the same thing. Hep actually has grounds to go to rollitup and report it.

There is nothing wrong with attacking someones arguments they use to support their beliefs because if you don't like your beliefs being questioned, you're completely free not to bring them up.

Do you see the difference?

CWE attacks Hep's character, not his arguments. It's got nothing to do with atheists v. theists. If he was doing the same thing to you he'd hear the same thing from me.


To CWE, keep it up and Hep won't have to do anything, I will.

Click to expand...

olylifter420 said:

Like I said, both sides use the same tactics...

It just does not seem as if you are to yourself and others that may feel the same way as you, cause obviously you are writing it. I remember way back in the day when I would do the same thing, stand up for heph when he was a believer and all you all would say is " why were we playing the HURT card"... which I too would defend as a legitimate attack on our shared beliefs...

How is your statement different from mine if they both were doing the same thing?

Just because you are an atheist, does that mean a "hurt card" does not apply to you?

I dont get it with you people, doing the same thing as believers do, yet you play it as if it is nothing alike...

Click to expand...

Playing the hurt feelings card is different than pointing out genuine abuse. Some of what Chief is doing to Hep is borderline harassment, and most of it is based on made up charges. It's the exercising of bigotry, something I never saw you do.

Playing the hurt card is rarely about being hurt. This happens when the person was not attacked personally, but takes criticism of his ideas or arguments as if they were personal attacks. It attempts to use basic etiquette and regard for personal decency in defense of illogical or irrational stances. It's like saying, 'I know you have no problem criticizing my beliefs, but you wouldn't stoop to criticizing something personal like my looks or the way I speak, so I will act as if you did'. It is also often a pretense for employing indignation. A way to act as if questioning my beliefs is unfair.

beliefs is a wide word. what beliefs would you be talking about?

also, I remember you atheists doing the same thing to me... no one(mods) ever stepped to defend me as a person... what bullshit is this? now that heph has changed views, he is somehow more important then anyone else? or he deserves better treatment just cause he shares the same hate as you all do?

that is total bullshit man and you know it heis... you are a dude of proper etiquette and you never stood up for me as a mod neither did pad...



and how is attacking my beliefs not harassment? sativahigh would do the same damn thing and you all never did shit, you encouraged him...

that is total bullshit especially now that this has happened...


i see how insensitive you people are and how you all are so damn selfish... at least me as a believer would stand up for anyone being attacked, no matter what their beliefs are on faith or God...


the fact that you all are biased and do not stick to your words is one reason I left this site.... you all claim to be the bearers of equality cause bullshit this and bullshit that,,, well, atheists are just as crappy as everyone else,,,


and one other thing, the coolest atheist on here has got to be cannabineer...

you all got a lot to learn from him... maybe your cause would be better heard if you all had neere's attitude

Heisenberg said:

Playing the hurt feelings card is different than pointing out genuine abuse. Some of what Chief is doing to Hep is borderline harassment, and most of it is based on made up charges. It's the exercising of bigotry, something I never saw you do.

Playing the hurt card is rarely about being hurt. This happens when the person was not attacked personally, but takes criticism of his ideas or arguments as if they were personal attacks. It attempts to use basic etiquette and regard for personal decency in defense of illogical or irrational stances. It's like saying, 'I know you have no problem criticizing my beliefs, but you wouldn't stoop to criticizing something personal like my looks or the way I speak, so I will act as if you did'. It is also often a pretense for employing indignation. A way to act as if questioning my beliefs is unfair.

Click to expand...

olylifter420 said:

beliefs is a wide word. what beliefs would you be talking about?

Click to expand...

I was speaking hypothetically. No particular beliefs in mind, I was just explaining an example of the hurt card. You were wondering if atheists were exempt from the hurt card, I was trying to show that anyone, atheist or not, is using the hurt card if it fits the explanation. But at the same time, not every instance of saying "you hurt me" qualifies as playing the hurt card.

also, I remember you atheists doing the same thing to me... no one(mods) ever stepped to defend me as a person... what bullshit is this? now that heph has changed views, he is somehow more important then anyone else? or he deserves better treatment just cause he shares the same hate as you all do?

that is total bullshit man and you know it heis... you are a dude of proper etiquette and you never stood up for me as a mod neither did pad.

Click to expand...

I have nothing to do with modding here, and I have always defended science and reason. I remember teaching you how to multi-quote, going to great lengths to explain myself to you, and it wasn't that long ago i used you as an example of someone with opposing views who has taught me something. I have always welcomed your participation here. You sure seem edgy lately.

..

and how is attacking my beliefs not harassment? sativahigh would do the same damn thing and you all never did shit, you encouraged him...

Click to expand...

Dude, I have had epic convos with Sativa and all but demanded he stop being abusive. Never once did I cut him slack because we agree on atheism, and I am sure he would agree. I always speak out when i see unfair treatment. As i said, I have no mod powers here, and I like that because it forces me to talk through things and face the challenge. I prefer to keep my mod abilities to areas I have no emotional connection to, like hydroponics.

i see how insensitive you people are and how you all are so damn selfish... at least me as a believer would stand up for anyone being attacked, no matter what their beliefs are on faith or God...


the fact that you all are biased and do not stick to your words is one reason I left this site.... you all claim to be the bearers of equality cause bullshit this and bullshit that,,, well, atheists are just as crappy as everyone else,,,

Click to expand...

I agree with you, atheists are just as crappy as everyone else. There is nothing about atheism which makes the atheist special. It is nothing more than an indication of which way you fall on a very specific belief.

olylifter420 said:

How is that different from what sativahigh was doing to me? why did you never step in like you have now?is it because of my beliefs that you never wanted to step in?I can see how you stick to your own kind per se... that is not cool and that is biased to say the least man.... I thought you people were all about equal shit... now it seems you only cover your own people... selfish pricksand also, how is that not the hurt card?

Click to expand...

Did you just skip over my previous post directed to you? All of these questions were answered.

The only thing I'm biased towards is logic and reason. The fact that the most logical and reasonable arguments come from the atheist camp isn't my fault.

You feel as if you were personally attacked because your beliefs were indefensible, which isn't the same as attacking your character.

If I said "Oly is ugly" - that's an attack on your character, you as a person. That's not permitted.

If on the other hand I said "Oly, I think your beliefs are wrong and here's why..." - that's an attack on your beliefs, which is completely allowed because like I told you before, you have the option to say "oh, well those are my beliefs that I hold based on faith", and keep them completely to yourself, nobody is forcing anyone to explain what they believe, they do that completely on their own.

Are you seeing the difference yet? One, Hep has no defense against CWE's harassment in any reasonable context, all he can say is "no I'm not". CWE's attack isn't asking to be reasoned with, all it's doing is baiting for an emotional response because CWE isn't intelligent enough to formulate any actual rational rebuttal to Hep's posts, all he can do is sling personal attacks and hope to piss him off enough to reply in the same kind of emotionally fueled way. It's been his repertoire since he's joined.


So yeah, that's the difference. You probably still won't see the distinction and keep calling foul, but this post is as far as I'm personally taking any further explanations.

olylifter420 said:

beliefs is a wide word. what beliefs would you be talking about?

also, I remember you atheists doing the same thing to me... no one(mods) ever stepped to defend me as a person... what bullshit is this? now that heph has changed views, he is somehow more important then anyone else? or he deserves better treatment just cause he shares the same hate as you all do?

that is total bullshit man and you know it heis... you are a dude of proper etiquette and you never stood up for me as a mod neither did pad...



and how is attacking my beliefs not harassment? sativahigh would do the same damn thing and you all never did shit, you encouraged him...

that is total bullshit especially now that this has happened...


i see how insensitive you people are and how you all are so damn selfish... at least me as a believer would stand up for anyone being attacked, no matter what their beliefs are on faith or God...


the fact that you all are biased and do not stick to your words is one reason I left this site.... you all claim to be the bearers of equality cause bullshit this and bullshit that,,, well, atheists are just as crappy as everyone else,,,


and one other thing, the coolest atheist on here has got to be cannabineer...

you all got a lot to learn from him... maybe your cause would be better heard if you all had neere's attitude

Click to expand...

When I was religious I was still friends with many of the atheists here. Some would tell sativa high that he was going about his arguments towards me the wrong way. So it's not because we share disbelief in god that they're telling CWE to back off. It's because CWE is just attacking for no reason.

And atheists don't believe in equality, we just don't believe in god.

Padawanbater2 said:

What's so hard to understand Oly?

CWE complains about Hep in a personal way, attacking his character, not any of the arguments that support his beliefs (because he can't). It is nothing short of a personal attack, which has led to him actually following Hep around multiple threads doing the same thing. Hep actually has grounds to go to rollitup and report it.

There is nothing wrong with attacking someones arguments they use to support their beliefs because if you don't like your beliefs being questioned, you're completely free not to bring them up.

Do you see the difference?

CWE attacks Hep's character, not his arguments. It's got nothing to do with atheists v. theists. If he was doing the same thing to you he'd hear the same thing from me.


To CWE, keep it up and Hep won't have to do anything, I will.

Click to expand...

Self portraits are not compelling in religious discussions.

mindphuk said:

That's actually a pretty serious accusation and I don't think you could actually prove it, let's say using the legal standard of reasonable doubt, no wait, let's use the less stringent - preponderance of evidence. IOW, back it up or else start getting used to people putting you in the same category of proven liar, Hovind

Click to expand...

Funny how rpgdude sort of disappeared after this...

This is getting ridiculous, now this entire thread is just personal attacks, can't we just accept it that some people have different beliefs and put on our big boy pants and walk away. Spirituality and faith vary from person to person, it's something that shouldn't be paraded like a show pony at a county fair. We more or less all believe the same thing that life can be explained by something immensely powerful beyond our wildest imaginations, except you call it god and I call it science. You think god molded the earth and man, I believe a giant explosion caused the expansion of our universe and the creation of our planet as we know it. We just have a different way of seeing it.

I use to pray all the time. After praying all the time and nothing happening for me i slowly started to loose any faith in any type of god given help. Plus i found myself cursing god out all the time saing why wont you fucking help, why did you make this happen to me? I slowly gave up on the anger and the faith. I now realize i make my own destiny and control everything that happens to me one way or another. Im not quite sure there really is a GOD after all, who knows? I do believe that peoples souls go somewhere. Not sure if its reincarnation or what.

If what makes you...you, is merely what you have gathered from the experiences you have been through, and the pieces you have taken, or left, from everyone you ever met in this life, and you do not remember your "past" life. That would mean that who you are, or more so, who we all pretend to be, will not get carried over to the next life...assuming we have been reincarnated.

Would that not mean that our souls (if we have them), aren't made up of who we are? Or who we pretend to be?

I think our souls are made up of who we are/pretend to be to a certain extent. But i think our intuition and what we gravitate to in life was possibly in our psyche/soul all along.

MHA1990 said:

This is getting ridiculous, now this entire thread is just personal attacks, can't we just accept it that some people have different beliefs and put on our big boy pants and walk away. Spirituality and faith vary from person to person, it's something that shouldn't be paraded like a show pony at a county fair. We more or less all believe the same thing that life can be explained by something immensely powerful beyond our wildest imaginations, except you call it god and I call it science. You think god molded the earth and man, I believe a giant explosion caused the expansion of our universe and the creation of our planet as we know it. We just have a different way of seeing it.

Click to expand...

There is one basic difference between placing your allegiance in a God with a plan and in science.
The ones who choose science are expressing a belief that the immense will not stay beyond our wildest imagination ... that our destiny is to become the masters of it all. In an interesting inversion, if you like the conceit that man is made in God's image, it is our birthright, destiny and duty to grow up into the place left vacant by the external Gods of our racial infancy.

The ones who choose an external God are accepting of the idea that we will forever be subordinates, led like sheep. Our ideas of God stem from our earliest days as philosophers. They are necessarily primitive. What bothers me most is that they are being energetically protected from evolving by the wardens of orthodoxy. There's no growth process, and in its worst incarnations, a promise of an imminent end to all things, removing the mandate to grow, to keep up with our expanding sense of our place in nature. cn

cannabineer said:

The ones who choose an external God are accepting of the idea that we will forever be subordinates, led like sheep.

Click to expand...