Name this problem

NoWaistedSpace said:

I have my moments. lol
But seriously, whether you're growing in soil,FFOF,Sunshine #4, or with those damn "Pine Needles" covering the top, it's about keeping your "microbes" fed and happy. The roots tell the microbes what they want and the microbes run and fetch it, unless the microbes have decided to take off work that day, or they have gotten lazy from a life of being "bottle fed". lol

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lol, plants do not care in any way shape or form, nor can they or any lab in the world, tell the difference between a synthetic molecule or an organic one! Adding microbes can help if you are running a truly desolate medium...with absolutely nothing in it at all...but these mixes contain tons of organic matter already, and that in itself will encourage bacterial/fungii growth! The organic matter and the plant will keep them happy enough! Feeding chemically (unless way overdone), has absolutely no effect on microbial life...yes bacteria may not increase as in an organic setting, but fungii does, and chemical ferts will not harm your soil culture at all! As for needing to feed the microbes...they feed on the organic matter and the sugars they get back from the plant..until fruits are set and ripening...then they give back less sugar (food) for the microbes.
The only thing organics helps with in a garden, is it needs less input from the grower once setup properly..and that helps as in 90+% of the cases, the grower is the biggest danger to the plant!

Blitz35 said:

plants do not care in any way shape or form, nor can they or any lab in the world, tell the difference between a synthetic molecule or an organic one!

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Yes, as it relates the molecular make-up of nitrates, whether composted or synthetics. But I didn't see anyone claiming the opposite so not sure what you're trying to get at here.

Blitz35 said:

Adding microbes can help if you are running a truly desolate medium...with absolutely nothing in it at all...but these mixes contain tons of organic matter already, and that in itself will encourage bacterial/fungii growth!

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When you say "these mixes" what are you referring to? FFOF has been inconsistent since the company exhausted their original material source. You have no way of knowing if there is "tons of organic matter" already present.

Blitz35 said:

Feeding chemically (unless way overdone), has absolutely no effect on microbial life...yes bacteria may not increase as in an organic setting, but fungii does, and chemical ferts will not harm your soil culture at all!

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Citation? And are you kidding? Overferted and overwatered plants can seen in every infirmary on every grow forum.

Blitz35 said:

As for needing to feed the microbes...they feed on the organic matter and the sugars they get back from the plant..until fruits are set and ripening...then they give back less sugar (food) for the microbes.

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Again...citation? Other than an OpEd piece in an issue of Garden Myths that's already been dissected.
BTW, microbes feed on organic material and create humus. Humus = organic matter. You're confusing the two.

Nitrogen can be used as a food source but feeding the roots directly with synthetics makes for laziness in the "chain of command" so to speak. Plants producing root exudates slows to a crawl.

I've got some free time so I'll curse over any studies you can provide that claim synthetics have no effect on the stability or diversity of the soil food web.


Sorry to hijack your thread OP

My understanding on microbes is they break larger molecules down to a level that a plant can take up. Is this correct?
I think that a transplant into FFOF and a much larger container and then just left alone, is the way to go here. Just water it when dry.

Im gonna go with a phosphorus deficiency. pH can cause this. What pH are you feeding at and what pH is the runoff?

Also over watering or cold temps can cause this.

polishpollack said:

My understanding on microbes is they break larger molecules down to a level that a plant can take up. Is this correct?
I think that a transplant into FFOF and a much larger container and then just left alone, is the way to go here. Just water it when dry.

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Basically, yes. Microorganisms decompose complex materials into matter/humus, nutrients are converted from one form to another and are made available to plants and to other soil organisms. By-products from growing roots (exudates) feed soil organisms. So in turn, the organisms support plant health as they cycle nutrients. Round and round
As for the OPs questions...
Run-off isn't exactly an accurate measurement but the OP did say it was around 700-900ppms. That would lead me to believe there's plenty in the medium, its just locked out and unavailable due to anaerobic conditions.

When people get into a forum like this and received a variety of opinions, it's easy to get caught up and over think things. FFOF is designed to feed the plant and make the process simpler. You just need to use enough to sustain the life cycle.

Thx for all the responses. I just transplanted into much bigger pots into fresh Ocean Forest. Im keeping it super simple

Im also gonna flip to 12/12 using Advanced Nutes Ph perfect nutes. Should be simple

That could be asking for trouble. But go ahead.

Blitz35 said:

LOL..you just contradicted yourself if you know anything at all! "FFOF has added peat, yes. But its also AMENDED WITH ORGANIC MATTER. Its notorious for pH instability" By that definition alone, the organic matter will keep ph stable and not allow large swings from its base! Anyway..no time for this...good luck OP, do some research yourself before commiting to change something that doesn't have to be Bol!

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that's completely and totally wrong...decaying organic matter does NOT keep ph stable, exactly the opposite, it lowers ph, making the soil acidic.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

that's completely and totally wrong...decaying organic matter does NOT keep ph stable, exactly the opposite, it lowers ph, making the soil acidic.

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He's 4 weeks into his grow...organic matter does not break down that quickly to turn conditions acidic! It also depends on what is being grown specifically that will dictate whether soil ph goes up or down with decaying organic matter.
When organic matter first begins to decay, it releases anions and cations. Plant foliage and stems generally contain more anions, so the initial decay over the first few weeks causes a soil pH increase. Soil microbes further break down the plant material to ammonium which temporarily increases pH. The ammonium gets converted to nitrate which causes pH to instead go down. If the nitrate is lost to leaching, pH drops even more. IN THE VERY LONG TERM, microbial decomposition decreases pH. For example, humus takes anywhere from 500 to 5000 years to completely decompose! The net effect of organic matter addition on soil pH depends on the rate at which all these processes occur and what happens with the nitrogen produced (e.g., nitrate plant uptake vs. leaching loss), the quality and quantity of plant material, and initial soil pH.
The carbonic acid that's formed with decaying organic matter, takes many many years before it can even be detected in the fields. It contributes very little to overall soil acidity! https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/25381599/f-2239-causes-and-effects-of-soil-acidity-plantstres-plantstresscom

guess it depends on how long their "organic material" has been laying around before they use it, and how long the bag of soil sits on the shelf before you buy it....as well as what kind of solids they're including in the mix.
which is why i quit using soil when i came indoors 4 years ago. if you're really into the organic thing, go for it, but there are just so many variables, that i don't like it. too hard to get consistent results, when you have to keep a micro herd running, account for the breakdown of material in your medium, use amendments that can decay and release nutes at different rates......i switched to coco coir, and have never looked back. i'm not organic, but all i use is Jack's nutes, captain jack's spinosad, with occasional doses of pyrethrin in veg, and some organic amendments, kelp and alfalfa meal, some sul-po-mag in flower, and that's it. may not qualify as organic, but it comes a hell of a lot closer than most of the crap i see around

Roger A. Shrubber said:

guess it depends on how long their "organic material" has been laying around before they use it, and how long the bag of soil sits on the shelf before you buy it....as well as what kind of solids they're including in the mix.
which is why i quit using soil when i came indoors 4 years ago. if you're really into the organic thing, go for it, but there are just so many variables, that i don't like it. too hard to get consistent results, when you have to keep a micro herd running, account for the breakdown of material in your medium, use amendments that can decay and release nutes at different rates......i switched to coco coir, and have never looked back. i'm not organic, but all i use is Jack's nutes, captain jack's spinosad, with occasional doses of pyrethrin in veg, and some organic amendments, kelp and alfalfa meal, some sul-po-mag in flower, and that's it. may not qualify as organic, but it comes a hell of a lot closer than most of the crap i see around

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I agree...maybe once one becomes a 'pro' with organics, it's good, but for mj especially, i think a coco/hydro setting is easier to deal with to insure the biggest flowers. Give them what they want when they need it...not everything all there at once, and who knows how much of what can build up or be lacking in x amount of time. Too many variables to deal with if/when something goes wrong!

Feed again, half strength, ph'd to 6.8