More exact ppm values of individual elements

Flowki

Well-Known Member
In terms of n-p-k cal/mag what would you say are the ball park individual ppm values from ''full veg'' through stretch, mid and to finish?. It would be easier to stick to the growth stages rather than specific weeks for obvious reasons. I realise some strains are more finicky but put those aside.

I've found this very difficult to find info on since people are converting ppm in various ways along with very vague insights such as ''lower k'' or ''increase P'' by a fraction of what's on the label. For the most part we (or only I?) seem to run with a widely accepted ratio/total value and call it a day, with ought really knowing how little or much you can actually use and when.

To get the ball rolling.

As far as P goes, it was easy to find info since it's a focal point for many.

(From scholar) During veg the minimum value is 30ppm P. During the peak of flower the max is 80ppm P. However that value takes into account microbes that more efficiently transport P to the plant, after 80ppm P they switch off and go dormant. This would lead me to believe 90 to 100ppm P is max or possibly too much, in terms of long term build ups and toxicity. Just a bit of reasoning before P values to the best of my knowledge/opinion.

P value.

Full veg - 30ppm
Stretch - 30-50 max
Mid to late flower - 50-80
Final week (or 2) - 40-60
 
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Flowki

Well-Known Member
@Dr. Who maybe you can shed some light on this. Also is it accurate enough to convert peoples ppm types to ec, or would true ppm values by weight be the only way?. I may have got wires crossed but the various ppm methods confuse me very much when trying to figure out what people are using.

This isn't too boring a topic for people is it?.
 
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Xs121

Well-Known Member
People prefer the easy way, which means for the most part they're happy with whatever brand they are using and the manufacturer recommended dosage. PPM to them is the total dissolved solid in a solution, it's just too much for them to break it down to their individual NPK values, micros included.

But for people like us, who wants to push or optimize our nutrient profile then its essential to know the ppm value of the individual elements. at least the major elements that is.

As for me, I don't follow feeding % by stages, I feed according to what I think the plant/s is telling me (its easier growing one strain at a time). That said, my ….

P value range from 25ppm - 150ppm
N value range from 25ppm - 150ppm
K value range from 50ppm - 300ppm
S 10ppm - 60ppm
Mg 15ppm - 90ppm
Ca 20ppm - 150ppm
 

pulpoinspace

Well-Known Member
55g of MEGACROP in a 10gal reservoir (all the values are in range in the above post):

Total Nitrogen (N)
145.2954

Phosphorous (P)
34.8729

Potassium (K)
174.8807

Magnesium (Mg)
27.6056

Calcium (Ca)
94.4401

Sulfur (S)
15.9824

Iron (Fe)
1.1625

Zinc (Zn)
1.5980

Boron (B)
1.1625

Manganese (Mn)
1.1625

Copper (Cu)
0.7264

Molybdenum (Mo)
0.1452

Silicon (Si)
1.4528

Total PPM 500.4994
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
@Dr. Who maybe you can shed some light on this. Also is it accurate enough to convert peoples ppm types to ec, or would true ppm values by weight be the only way?. I may have got wires crossed but the various ppm methods confuse me very much when trying to figure out what people are using.

This isn't too boring a topic for people is it?.
I understand ppm over EC better......I mean school taught volume metering....
You know the % value and build your mix by weight of the nutrient......Even liquids were measured out by weight to get you desired mix ratios. (Yes volume is first but in exacting experiments. You go by weight values for known volumes of your target compounds)

Like when mixing dry chems of known % by volume.
You simply do the proper equation by the volume, mixture formula...

Socratic math as applied to chemistry
 

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
@Dr. Who maybe you can shed some light on this. Also is it accurate enough to convert peoples ppm types to ec, or would true ppm values by weight be the only way?. I may have got wires crossed but the various ppm methods confuse me very much when trying to figure out what people are using.

This isn't too boring a topic for people is it?.
check out the chart in the middle.
mel frank and pH imbalance have their opinions.

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm
 

Flowki

Well-Known Member
People prefer the easy way, which means for the most part they're happy with whatever brand they are using and the manufacturer recommended dosage. PPM to them is the total dissolved solid in a solution, it's just too much for them to break it down to their individual NPK values, micros included.

But for people like us, who wants to push or optimize our nutrient profile then its essential to know the ppm value of the individual elements. at least the major elements that is.

As for me, I don't follow feeding % by stages, I feed according to what I think the plant/s is telling me (its easier growing one strain at a time). That said, my ….

P value range from 25ppm - 150ppm
N value range from 25ppm - 150ppm
K value range from 50ppm - 300ppm
S 10ppm - 60ppm
Mg 15ppm - 90ppm
Ca 20ppm - 150ppm
That's somewhat helpful, but still a fair bit vague. Are your peak values opinion based from how far you have pushed with no burn?, or can you link factual info on some of them? (I mean that respectfully as a genuine interest).
 

Flowki

Well-Known Member
55g of MEGACROP in a 10gal reservoir (all the values are in range in the above post):

Total Nitrogen (N)
145.2954

Phosphorous (P)
34.8729

Potassium (K)
174.8807

Magnesium (Mg)
27.6056

Calcium (Ca)
94.4401

Sulfur (S)
15.9824

Iron (Fe)
1.1625

Zinc (Zn)
1.5980

Boron (B)
1.1625

Manganese (Mn)
1.1625

Copper (Cu)
0.7264

Molybdenum (Mo)
0.1452

Silicon (Si)
1.4528

Total PPM 500.4994
Ok this is a good post to help me clear up my confusion. Your total is 500ppm so from that you are using Hanna and are 1.0ec?.

If so, that is my problem. Say your N ppm is 200, that's only 0.4 on ec. If a person is referring to the trun ppm (I don't even know if they do or how often) then they are only on 0.3 ec value. So that matters to me as I don't know if I am being mislead by various conversions.

The back of your nutrient pack, is the ppm using the dry weight ppm like DR.who describes, or is it using one of the conversions on the sheet?. << I realised how dumb that question is but leaving it up for tomorrow to remind myself how stoned I was ;p.




 

Flowki

Well-Known Member
I understand ppm over EC better......I mean school taught volume metering....
You know the % value and build your mix by weight of the nutrient......Even liquids were measured out by weight to get you desired mix ratios. (Yes volume is first but in exacting experiments. You go by weight values for known volumes of your target compounds)

Like when mixing dry chems of known % by volume.
You simply do the proper equation by the volume, mixture formula...

Socratic math as applied to chemistry
I was helped on this forum to work out the ppm of dry nutes by weight, like calcium nitrate for example. But I'm not sure if that ppm actually applies to any of those formats above?. If I worked out the dry weight and the amount of cal was 90ppm, that 90 ppm value is it's own category of ppm conversion?, or is it for example the ''Hanna'' ppm.
 

pulpoinspace

Well-Known Member
Ok this is a good post to help me clear up my confusion. Your total is 500ppm so from that you are using Hanna and are 1.0ec?.

If so, that is my problem. Say your N ppm is 200, that's only 0.4 on ec. If a person is referring to the trun ppm (I don't even know if they do or how often) then they are only on 0.3 ec value. So that matters to me as I don't know if I am being mislead by various conversions.

The back of your nutrient pack, is the ppm using the dry weight ppm like DR.who describes, or is it using one of the conversions on the sheet?. << I realised how dumb that question is but leaving it up for tomorrow to remind myself how stoned I was ;p.




its not using either conversion its elemental PPM. its from the feeding calculator on greenleaf's website. the values i posted are the elemental PPM of 55g of MC in 10gal reservoir. they also say 55g in 10 gal = ~1.53 EC. so the elemental PPM from their calculator is actually even less than .500 conversion. it is just for educational purposes i guess.
 

Xs121

Well-Known Member
That's somewhat helpful, but still a fair bit vague. Are your peak values opinion based from how far you have pushed with no burn?, or can you link factual info on some of them? (I mean that respectfully as a genuine interest).
The conversion is based with nutrient calculator just like rkymtmman link to determine the individual ppm in a bottle(if liquid) or by weight (if solid). So regardless of the source of my NPK (bottle or powder), I combined all these sources(their ppm content) to arrive or as close to Lucas Formula nutrient profile.

I used to apply Lucas Formula to their corresponding stages, like LF for vegetative phase and LF for flowering phase. I don't do that anymore.

How, I feed my plants doesn't follow conventional wisdom BUT it works for me and IMO I have better control on the direction of my plants phases, specially for flowering.

Example of how I feed my plants, say in a 1 gallon solution

1. Base solution - 1Gallon Lucas Formula (referred from now as full strength LF)
2. Age of plant and stage of plant....the feeding are broken into....
a) 1/4 LF + full strength LF N ppm or
b) 1/4 LF + full strength LF PK ppm or
c) 1/2 LF + full strength LF N ppm or
d) 1/2 LF + full strength LF PK ppm or
e) 1/4 LF only or
f) 1/2 LF only

Say I want to feed the plant with Nitrogen, I would premix a full strength LF in 1 gallon then in another empty gallon I would fill it with 1/4 (or 1/2) of that premix and add 100 ppm of N and water. As you can see, my N is actually over 100 ppm at this point. If I want to feed my plant with PK, I'll just add the full strength LF ppm value of PK to either 1/4 or 1/2 LF.

I don't know if I make sense above but its easier done (it's not rocket science, I promise) than said. lol

That said, I can push my N or PK to maximum without going over 2 EC or 1000 ppm. Since I've been doing this, I've never feed my plants with water only, no salt build-up, no nute burn.

Previously, I use to hit 3 EC easy and have to constantly deal with salt build up.

Capture5.JPG

Just showing the health of the plant

Left pic is 3 weeks in of 12/12. From this pic, you can see very slight tip burn
Right pic, same cola (over a foot), just about 7 weeks in of 12/12. Have to tie it down, since it started leaning to the left and I'm slowly leaching nutrients at this stage 1/4 LF + full strength PK
 
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im4satori

Well-Known Member
In terms of n-p-k cal/mag what would you say are the ball park individual ppm values from ''full veg'' through stretch, mid and to finish?. It would be easier to stick to the growth stages rather than specific weeks for obvious reasons. I realise some strains are more finicky but put those aside.

I've found this very difficult to find info on since people are converting ppm in various ways along with very vague insights such as ''lower k'' or ''increase P'' by a fraction of what's on the label. For the most part we (or only I?) seem to run with a widely accepted ratio/total value and call it a day, with ought really knowing how little or much you can actually use and when.

To get the ball rolling.

As far as P goes, it was easy to find info since it's a focal point for many.

(From scholar) During veg the minimum value is 30ppm P. During the peak of flower the max is 80ppm P. However that value takes into account microbes that more efficiently transport P to the plant, after 80ppm P they switch off and go dormant. This would lead me to believe 90 to 100ppm P is max or possibly too much, in terms of long term build ups and toxicity. Just a bit of reasoning before P values to the best of my knowledge/opinion.

P value.

Full veg - 30ppm
Stretch - 30-50 max
Mid to late flower - 50-80
Final week (or 2) - 40-60
this is a long and kinda confusing topic

and itll take some time and effort to learn

id start by down loading a free program called hydro buddy... if you just google search hydro buddy youll find the down load...

about the posts above

there are two separate topics going on...
you have EC, PPM (.7 scale) and PPM (.5 scale)

which is a result of a meter reading

and then theres a conversation about active elemental ppm
active elemental ppm is not the same thing as "ppm" from your meter

why the industry has done what they've done I cant explain but the truth is ppm from your meter is a fictitious number and imo shouldn't exist

the ppm you get from a meter reading is basically EC converted and depending on the brand of your meter the conversion rates are different
so as a result you and I could take readings using a ppm meter from the same solution and have very different results depending on the conversion or brand of the meter

so its all very fucking stupid

EC is a universal reading and should be the same on ever EC meter (+/-)
so In order to not be confused we will need to speak of meter readings as EC only and not ppm

when we speak about ppm it will need to be in reference to true active elemental ppm

true active elemental ppm is what youd see from a lab test if you sent your source water out to be analyzed.

it would tell you exactly how many part per million of each element or mineral there is in the source water

this is something completely different than the PPM reading your meter provides which aren't really ppm and shouldn't be called as such...its actually EC
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
true active elemental ppm can be anticipated thru a math equation

I don't actually do the math, and at my age probably cant remember how lol

I use a calculator so im just pluggin in the necessary info and the calculator spit out the answer... and I don't know everthing so im sure you may have some question I wont have full answers for ...some of these details ive read and forgotten many times over so bare with me
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
what we need is

on the bottle for each product your using theirs hopefully a label on the rear that list each element in the bottle and in what %

for example

N........5%
P........2%
K........7%
Ca......5%
Mg......1.5%

and so on

with this info and by inputting the water volume and mls/gallon of liquids or grams /gallon dry salts you can figure out the active elemental ppm of your solution before you mix it
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
id like to now direct you to my journal (satori x querkle)at the bottom of each of my posts where you will find pics of the calculator I use (excel) and more info
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
what we need is

on the bottle for each product your using theirs hopefully a label on the rear that list each element in the bottle and in what %

for example

N........5%
P........2%
K........7%
Ca......5%
Mg......1.5%

and so on

with this info and by inputting the water volume and mls/gallon of liquids or grams /gallon dry salts you can figure out the active elemental ppm of your solution before you mix it

Satori's answers are better then mine..

I was talking the active elemental ppm......It's all I use and do not bother with hydro anymore....This is a "To much work involved" thing for me at my age...
I have been thinking of doing a cpl of DWC plants for the fun of it....If I did, all my work would be in active elemental values for my feeds.
I would also follow the 33% add back rule...This helps with the problems of lowering concentrations and the pH getting harder to hold due to loss of buffering ability of the nutrient solution...It also gives a sort of "balance" to your nutrient solution for the plant to remain at an optimal availability situation......

If I was to go RDWC on a home made system for fun (been thinking of that too)
I would be using 50% of my DWC solution concentrations to start out.....

Even when I did hydro as my whole method of growing.....I never did ppm or EC......I set my elemental values by volume math to the required NPK value I set or favored for my strain

PPM AND EC always bothered me.....Personal thing really.. Always worked in soil, so when hydro came along,,,all that ppm/EC shit, fucked with me.....Went to mixing to my soil values and my problem went away..
 
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Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
check out the chart in the middle.
mel frank and pH imbalance have their opinions.
http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm
EXACTLY why I always followed the 33% ad-back "rule"!

Hold that solutions ability to buffer.....I also liked to have my plants have a pretty even feed availability by %.....

Didn't see this till today.....Missed it

I was helped on this forum to work out the ppm of dry nutes by weight, like calcium nitrate for example. But I'm not sure if that ppm actually applies to any of those formats above?. If I worked out the dry weight and the amount of cal was 90ppm, that 90 ppm value is it's own category of ppm conversion?, or is it for example the ''Hanna'' ppm.
Why I always do elemental values to my wanted NPK value to feed the strain with.....The delivery will always be the same....the math is simple and I understand it better - LOL
 

Xs121

Well-Known Member
what we need is

on the bottle for each product your using theirs hopefully a label on the rear that list each element in the bottle and in what %

for example

N........5%
P........2%
K........7%
Ca......5%
Mg......1.5%

and so on

with this info and by inputting the water volume and mls/gallon of liquids or grams /gallon dry salts you can figure out the active elemental ppm of your solution before you mix it
See Rkymtnman link

Nutrient calculator and will do exactly what you described.

There are other nutrient calculator out there too
 
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