Money and furthering as a species

So last night I was thinking (don't remember what brought this to mind but I think it had to do with cn and the genetically altered weed debate).
We can almost all agree that the space program is important and getting humans to further planets and space exploration as a whole can help us as a species. The problem though is the extreme cost to send humans to space for the materials and everything else. So to better ourselves as a species why can't we work together with all of the other nations to set aside cost of materials, combine space programs and work jointly to get us further into space. It is an accomplishment of man kind when we reach new planets, not of a single country. If we were to work together it wouldn't be, America or Russia got there first, we would celebrate as a whole.

Why not just pay people for the labor and not pay the ludacris prices of materials when it can help us so much. I feel like this could also be applied to the other fields of science. I think this arbitrary paper is holding us back from making massive new discoveries that can be extremely helpful for everyone. We could also do without the bullshit where we don't study certain things ie marijuana because it's an illegal substance, that's just one more thing holding us back. As the human race, if we weren't so worried about money, which in the end means nothing, and focused on advancing ourselves, we would make much larger strides in record time.

Not sure if I have anything repliable in that mess (or even if this is in the right forum, couldn't decide between politics or science..) so do you think it is possible we may one day come close to something like this, throw out some ideas, possible downsides, ways to make it happen, other benefits?

greenswag said:

So last night I was thinking (don't remember what brought this to mind but I think it had to do with cn and the genetically altered weed debate).
We can almost all agree that the space program is important and getting humans to further planets and space exploration as a whole can help us as a species. The problem though is the extreme cost to send humans to space for the materials and everything else. So to better ourselves as a species why can't we work together with all of the other nations to set aside cost of materials, combine space programs and work jointly to get us further into space. It is an accomplishment of man kind when we reach new planets, not of a single country. If we were to work together it wouldn't be, America or Russia got there first, we would celebrate as a whole.

Why not just pay people for the labor and not pay the ludacris prices of materials when it can help us so much. I feel like this could also be applied to the other fields of science. I think this arbitrary paper is holding us back from making massive new discoveries that can be extremely helpful for everyone. We could also do without the bullshit where we don't study certain things ie marijuana because it's an illegal substance, that's just one more thing holding us back. As the human race, if we weren't so worried about money, which in the end means nothing, and focused on advancing ourselves, we would make much larger strides in record time.

Not sure if I have anything repliable in that mess (or even if this is in the right forum, couldn't decide between politics or science..) so do you think it is possible we may one day come close to something like this, throw out some ideas, possible downsides, ways to make it happen, other benefits?

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There already is an "international space station", which is funded by multiple nations.

To the rest of your post, I agree in the context you spoke of.
I don't see it happening anytime soon though. Especially when you take the concept and apply it further, specifically to both the social and political aspects of life. Essentially, what you mentioned is the social equivalent of "socialism" and/or utopian. We already know that in real life that shit doesn't work.

fb360 said:

There already is an "international space station", which is funded by multiple nations.

To the rest of your post, I agree in the context you spoke of.
I don't see it happening anytime soon though. Especially when you take the concept and apply it further, specifically to both the social and political aspects of life. Essentially, what you mentioned is the social equivalent of "socialism" and/or utopian. We already know that in real life that shit doesn't work.

Click to expand...

Agreed, what was the one book? ' The giver' or something, where it was a supposed utopia and one day a kid started seeing color from not taking his 'medicine' and that's when shit hit the fan. I know about the international space station, which just points out that it is possible (at least with the space ideas) and gives me a little hope. I was just thinking of the possibilities if people would stop thinking if it was profitable, and started thinking if it can help humans or the rest of the planet.

greenswag said:

Agreed, what was the one book? ' The giver' or something, where it was a supposed utopia and one day a kid started seeing color from not taking his 'medicine' and that's when shit hit the fan. I know about the international space station, which just points out that it is possible (at least with the space ideas) and gives me a little hope. I was just thinking of the possibilities if people would stop thinking if it was profitable, and started thinking if it can help humans or the rest of the planet.

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Yes you're thinking of "The Giver".

@The bold:
It's a hell of a thought, and I can only hope one day we can begin to think that way. In the mean time, I'm sure the man whose pockets are fattening is fighting it tooth and nail. Basically it all boils down to greed and human nature.

greenswag said:

So last night I was thinking (don't remember what brought this to mind but I think it had to do with cn and the genetically altered weed debate).
We can almost all agree that the space program is important and getting humans to further planets and space exploration as a whole can help us as a species. The problem though is the extreme cost to send humans to space for the materials and everything else. So to better ourselves as a species why can't we work together with all of the other nations to set aside cost of materials, combine space programs and work jointly to get us further into space. It is an accomplishment of man kind when we reach new planets, not of a single country. If we were to work together it wouldn't be, America or Russia got there first, we would celebrate as a whole.

Why not just pay people for the labor and not pay the ludacris prices of materials when it can help us so much. I feel like this could also be applied to the other fields of science. I think this arbitrary paper is holding us back from making massive new discoveries that can be extremely helpful for everyone. We could also do without the bullshit where we don't study certain things ie marijuana because it's an illegal substance, that's just one more thing holding us back. As the human race, if we weren't so worried about money, which in the end means nothing, and focused on advancing ourselves, we would make much larger strides in record time.

Not sure if I have anything repliable in that mess (or even if this is in the right forum, couldn't decide between politics or science..) so do you think it is possible we may one day come close to something like this, throw out some ideas, possible downsides, ways to make it happen, other benefits?

Click to expand...

Imo the political problems take a back seat to the technical.

The extreme cost of boosting payloads into low Earth orbit has to do with available and acceptable propulsion technologies. Right now we have chemical propulsion most highly developed as the bipropellant liquid-fueled reaction engine (the rocket). It can deliver an approx. 3% mass fraction to orbit, and the vehicles are expensive.
We need a new propulsion mode that is still acceptable in terms of environmental load but that can cheaply, efficiently and reliably/safely boost larger masses. There are two nuclear engine designs on the books. Nuclear-thermal won't work well in atmosphere, requires hydrogen as reaction mass, and still only doubles the specific impulse (Isp, a basic measure of a rocket's effectiveness) relative to a good hydroxygen-burning rocket.
Then there's pulse nuclear. Build a ten-thousand-ton spaceship and boost it into and across the skies by detonating small nukes under a pusher plate. Great lifting power, excellent Isp, and not so kind to the atmosphere and the land under it. (But I maintain it's the go-to choice if we ever find ourselves in need of mounting an emergency exodus.For a rip-roaring fictional treatment, I recommend Niven and Pournelle's Footfall.) The other issue with pulse nuclear is that it would quickly deplete our stock of fissile material, which we may wish to conserve against the time when fossil energy is too expensive and the next big thing (fusion?) not ready for prime time.

Looking further forward, energy becomes a serious limitation. If we ever refine drives to the point where we can make and use bulk antimatter, a ship fueled to the gills with that still cannot reach the relativistic speeds needed for any but the slowest interstellar reconnaissance. We'll need some way to gain energy either from what's in space (a variant on the ramscoop, gathering interstellar matter and converting it to useable energy) or from space itself by tapping the zero-point energy (which may be forbidden to us by physics).

So while I still feel the imperative of getting our collective buns off the mother rock ... I think it should wait until we have drive technologies that scale an orbital hauler down to something a medium-sized organization can buy and operate ... analogous to a cargo jet.
I had real hopes for the DCX/Delta Clipper project in the '90s. It would have been the simplest way to demonstrate SSTO (single stage to orbit ... and return), in which the vehicle is fully preserved, and the launch costs become dominated by the price of propellant. However the scale model crashed in testing and wasn't rebuilt. I believe those few facts contain a judgment on how little demand there is for a somewhat cheaper orbital bus than the Shuttle, whose op costs never distinguished themselves vis-à-vis disposable launchers. cn

I see what you're saying cn. I also thought about the need and incoming lack of resources for traveling into/through space. What do you think about removing the factor of cost and only focusing on research and experimentation in the other fields of science? I also think we could improve faster if we moved some..moral..barriers but I think we all know the possible consequences from that from so many science fiction movies. We still have a long way to go with so many people still thinking the earth is only a couple thousand years old sadly. I know I'm not the only one that can think like this so it brings me to wonder, perhaps in a few generations or a few hundred years we can move on and focus on saving and bettering ourselves and this planet.

Oh cn I forgot! You made me have a dream last night (weird I know) in the other thread you said you thought we should leave earth and allow it to return to it's natural state. I had a dream that we did that and Earth was like a vacation spot, completely lush and nothing but forest, dessert, ocean etc that people traveled to and spent a week or something camping. It was illegal to set up hotels or condos and the only building allowed was strictly regulated shops that people could buy supplies from if they needed. The rest of mankind lived in a way like star wars, all over different planets and on massive ships, it was pretty bad ass I really didn't want to wake up lol.

Extremely cool, greenswag! Ever notice that all the big sci-fi franchises (Wars, Trek etc.) have traceless levitation with abundant energy in tiny packages? They've simply waved their magic wand over the biggest physical hurdle to living up/out there. cn

You mean how all the ships, no matter what size, have these little blue thrusters on the bottom/back, and just up and flash into space or even light years away like nothing? XD Yeah I have noticed, they need to share what is in those thrusters lol. In my uneducated head I imagine using some, somehow extra powerful balloons like the one the guy just did the skydive from, but bigger obviously to get our ships to the edge of atmosphere, then using nuclear power to get us that last tiny bit, and through space. Isn't nuclear power the size of a lemon enough to power a submarine around the world a certain amount of times? I think the number was in the teens or twenties. I'm certain if we do figure out a new power to get us into space it will be nuclear, unless there is something more powerful/concentrated that I don't know about. I always wanted to be an astronaut when I was younger and now I'm still obsessed with space, it's purty.

How is the space program essential or even needed? So the rich can bounce when this planet is shot.

Balzac89 said:

How is the space program essential or even needed? So the rich can bounce when this planet is shot.

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At some point in time another asteroid is going to hit earth and extinguish most of life...

Good reason to get out of the way at least as much as possible.

Sorry, I'm not the best at putting what is in my mind into words, even when I have time to think it out and write it let alone speaking in person. I think of it as needed in that if we can get far enough, we may find a planet with usable resources to bring back to earth, or possibly even a new planet to inhabit or we could put up self sustainable biomes on other planets or the moon etc. I mean it can be used to start spreading humans through space rather than just on Earth, which can sound both good and bad. On the good, we now have a resolve for the overcrowding we are experiencing and have made an outstanding accomplishment and have taken a massive step forward as a species among tons of other bonuses. On the bad, we are possibly spreading our problems of pollution, destruction etc off of Earth and sending it to other planets.

fb360 said:

There already is an "international space station", which is funded by multiple nations.

To the rest of your post, I agree in the context you spoke of.
I don't see it happening anytime soon though. Especially when you take the concept and apply it further, specifically to both the social and political aspects of life. Essentially, what you mentioned is the social equivalent of "socialism" and/or utopian. We already know that in real life that shit doesn't work.

Click to expand...

Which is why in my view we are the not ready for prime time players when it comes to the GMO debate that seems to have sparked this thread and to which my main point all along has been that money = the quest for gold must be set aside or evolved beyond if there is any plausible chance that such technologies will be developed and used responsibly to enhance our inherent rights as individual pieces of nature rather than possibly end up infringing on all inherent human and the rest of natures rights as is the possible far reaching consequences of this technology whether accidental or intended and both categories odds increase exponentially when the bottom line motive is money/wealth of the few rather than the needs of the many.

greenswag said:

Sorry, I'm not the best at putting what is in my mind into words, even when I have time to think it out and write it let alone speaking in person. I think of it as needed in that if we can get far enough, we may find a planet with usable resources to bring back to earth, or possibly even a new planet to inhabit or we could put up self sustainable biomes on other planets or the moon etc. I mean it can be used to start spreading humans through space rather than just on Earth, which can sound both good and bad. On the good, we now have a resolve for the overcrowding we are experiencing and have made an outstanding accomplishment and have taken a massive step forward as a species among tons of other bonuses. On the bad, we are possibly spreading our problems of pollution, destruction etc off of Earth and sending it to other planets.

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We will start with baby steps... Mining asteroids, etc.

Colonies on a few planets maybe.

To get to interstellar space and start looking for planets is a huge leap yet.

We won't need or want planets. Although we evolved on one, the future is in the high flatlands of inter-and extraplanetary space. Imo the mid-range future is in the asteroids, and the deeper future is in the Kuiper belt and Oort cloud. We will follow the material resources. I also predict that we will engineer our bodies to be suited to space ... zero-G initially and the whole enchilada (vacuum and radiation) in time. That will be childhood's end and the start of our technical adolescence. Jmo. cn

NLXSK1 said:

At some point in time another asteroid is going to hit earth and extinguish most of life...

Good reason to get out of the way at least as much as possible.

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Anyone you know that can afford that ticket? Last boat off the rock

cannabineer said:

We won't need or want planets. Although we evolved on one, the future is in the high flatlands of inter-and extraplanetary space. Imo the mid-range future is in the asteroids, and the deeper future is in the Kuiper belt and Oort cloud. We will follow the material resources. I also predict that we will engineer our bodies to be suited to space ... zero-G initially and the whole enchilada (vacuum and radiation) in time. That will be childhood's end and the start of our technical adolescence. Jmo. cn

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Actually a long time ago, seems a lifetime ago now I found out different cn, it seems that once a species reaches into those evolutionary levels, planets become more important not less...it turns out that gardening is not just a 'primitive hobby' as thought by many big city dwellers...and though the 'resources' are no longer the motive for the garden in that direct sustenance sense, If we survive and evolve as a species then we will require a new kind of sustenance not based in material consumption, one that comes from simple gardening if you will and each planet = a garden...

NLXSK1 said:

At some point in time another asteroid is going to hit earth and extinguish most of life...

Good reason to get out of the way at least as much as possible.

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For what purpose?

why wouldn't we just accept our fate at that point and let what happens happen? Something that big, I say let the rat race end.

DNAprotection said:

Actually a long time ago, seems a lifetime ago now I found out different cn, it seems that once a species reaches into those evolutionary levels, planets become more important not less...it turns out that gardening is not just a 'primitive hobby' as thought by many big city dwellers...and though the 'resources' are no longer the motive for the garden in that direct sustenance sense, If we survive and evolve as a species then we will require a new kind of sustenance not based in material consumption, one that comes from simple gardening if you will and each planet = a garden...

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Why build your garden at the bottom of a deep well with sloping sides?
If we survive, it won't be as a species and it won't be entirely via evolution. That process is too slow and unguided. We will need to engineer ourselves. And at that point, it becomes clear imo that planets are not assets but liabilities to a spacefaring species.

When you say you "found [this] out" you make it sound like you unearthed a fact. Where did you find this? cn

greenswag said:

Agreed, what was the one book? ' The giver' or something, where it was a supposed utopia and one day a kid started seeing color from not taking his 'medicine' and that's when shit hit the fan. I know about the international space station, which just points out that it is possible (at least with the space ideas) and gives me a little hope. I was just thinking of the possibilities if people would stop thinking if it was profitable, and started thinking if it can help humans or the rest of the planet.

Click to expand...

You need to read the Giver again. The Giver of memories and the Receiver of memories are supposed to see color. It's an ancient talent genetically removed.

The reason the shit hit the fan is because his "brother" (a baby boy from the nursery who was behind with development was sent home with the Receiver's father for a second chance.) The baby still didn't develop, so the Receiver ran away with the baby.

I never once thought of the idea, even before knowing their limitations. Such a world needs a central authority, like Big Brother. Just yuck!

spandy said:

For what purpose?

why wouldn't we just accept our fate at that point and let what happens happen? Something that big, I say let the rat race end.

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Because we are hard wired to survive