liquid organic nute vs soil amendments?

im4satori

Well-Known Member
soil amendments require time to break down before available to the plant, depending on biology it could be 2 to 4 weeks before new additions are available

is this also true for liquid organic fertilizers purchased from the hydro store?
are they faster acting or do they also have to break down thru biology over time?
 
My understanding is that liquid organic nutes use humic and vulvic acids as chelators, Still making it available to the plant right away. Still... in a sense force feeding the plant, rather than with amendments the plant is talking what needs when it needs it. Of course your micros have a play in that too. And I don't think you can have a good micro heard with the chelators.

That's my take on it... I'm still fairly new with organics this summer being my first run with a super soil.
 
soil amendments require time to break down before available to the plant, depending on biology it could be 2 to 4 weeks before new additions are available

is this also true for liquid organic fertilizers purchased from the hydro store?
are they faster acting or do they also have to break down thru biology over time?
Organic liquid nutrients differ from organic liquid fertilizers. They are both immediately available to plants and neither needs microbes to break them down further. They are very different in how they are absorbed: in natural living soil the nutrients in a fertilizer are converted by the fungi attached to the roots to take up what the plants need whereas chelated nutrients need no symbiosis by fungi and are absorbed directly by the roots, essentially force feeding them. Chelates are not good for natural living soil grows because they typically contain NPK values that exceed what mycorrhizae fungi has evolved to absorb. Liquid fertilizer like fish hydrolasate on the other hand will not harm the micro-life and is therefore safe for living soils. Look for the OMRI label to know the difference.
If you grow in coco or some other sterile medium then organic or synthetic nutes are the way to go. If you grow in living soil then go with a liquid fertilizer like neptunes harvest. Dry amendments do take a real long time to become available; some way longer than just a few weeks. Think months or even years in some cases (SRP being one). That's why alotta growers use liquid fertilizer in addition to AACTs to get a jump on things. It has a lot to with how active your mix is to begin with: the more microbes there are in your mix fucking, fighting, and eating each other the easier it is for your plants to take up what is there. Compost is so often overlooked yet it provides the microbial life needed to have an active soil mix. It is almost more important than nutrients IMO.
If you just walk into any hydro store and tell them you want something "organic" they might try to sell you a product that is in the same catagory of synthetic nutes just derived fro organic compounds which is very different from truly organic fertilizers that won't harm the microherd. It's really just a matter of preference in how you grow your plants but an important one and thus the reason for my longass rant here. Hope that helps you
 
Organic liquid nutrients differ from organic liquid fertilizers. They are both immediately available to plants and neither needs microbes to break them down further. They are very different in how they are absorbed: in natural living soil the nutrients in a fertilizer are converted by the fungi attached to the roots to take up what the plants need whereas chelated nutrients need no symbiosis by fungi and are absorbed directly by the roots, essentially force feeding them. Chelates are not good for natural living soil grows because they typically contain NPK values that exceed what mycorrhizae fungi has evolved to absorb. Liquid fertilizer like fish hydrolasate on the other hand will not harm the micro-life and is therefore safe for living soils. Look for the OMRI label to know the difference.
If you grow in coco or some other sterile medium then organic or synthetic nutes are the way to go. If you grow in living soil then go with a liquid fertilizer like neptunes harvest. Dry amendments do take a real long time to become available; some way longer than just a few weeks. Think months or even years in some cases (SRP being one). That's why alotta growers use liquid fertilizer in addition to AACTs to get a jump on things. It has a lot to with how active your mix is to begin with: the more microbes there are in your mix fucking, fighting, and eating each other the easier it is for your plants to take up what is there. Compost is so often overlooked yet it provides the microbial life needed to have an active soil mix. It is almost more important than nutrients IMO.
If you just walk into any hydro store and tell them you want something "organic" they might try to sell you a product that is in the same catagory of synthetic nutes just derived fro organic compounds which is very different from truly organic fertilizers that won't harm the microherd. It's really just a matter of preference in how you grow your plants but an important one and thus the reason for my longass rant here. Hope that helps you
well all of that makes me think its more complicated than id first thought

so if im hearing you correctly your saying that many of the "liquid organic nutes aren't really "organic" as in derived from kelp meal, feather, meal, fish meal, crab meal, neem cake, and stuff like that

so what is it derived from then? mostly fish and certified organic potassium sulfate ?

let me set up an example;

guys growing in ffof soil and using liquid organic nutes for example the GH go box

and hes showing def from under feeding across the board

when he adds the fertilizer its quickly available to the plants... why?
is it pre digested or already broken down soil amendments within the liquid?
is it derived from things like hydrolized fish that's quickly available?

or are the fertilizer companies kinda full of shit again?

https://www.sunlightsupply.com/shop/product/gh-general-organics-go-box
 
so if alfalfa meal is a medium release organic fertilizer available over 3 to 6 months

how is it available quickly in this liquid fertilizer?

ah..ok so maybe its starting to sink in

so its more like a bottled tea concentrate... but wouldn't that become anaerobic? does it have preservatives?
 
so magnesium sulfate and potassium sulfate and sodium molybdate although certified organic aren't organic in the sense of requiring decomp thru natural process

molasses are quick...phosphoric acid is quick P... sea weed is quick

again all of which is not organic in the sense that requires decomp
 
well all of that makes me think its more complicated than id first thought

so if im hearing you correctly your saying that many of the "liquid organic nutes aren't really "organic" as in derived from kelp meal, feather, meal, fish meal, crab meal, neem cake, and stuff like that

so what is it derived from then? mostly fish and certified organic potassium sulfate ?

let me set up an example;

guys growing in ffof soil and using liquid organic nutes for example the GH go box

and hes showing def from under feeding across the board

when he adds the fertilizer its quickly available to the plants... why?
is it pre digested or already broken down soil amendments within the liquid?
is it derived from things like hydrolized fish that's quickly available?

or are the fertilizer companies kinda full of shit again?

https://www.sunlightsupply.com/shop/product/gh-general-organics-go-box
It is a bit complicated. What I am saying is you need to look very carefully at what you buy at a hydro store. There is an important difference between nutrients that are derived from organic compounds and liquid organic fertilizer and that is if the products are safe for living soil or not. It is up to you to understand the difference because you can fuck up your living soil grow royally if you give nutes with high NPK numbers. An NPK value higher than 5 should not be added to a living organic soil. The plants don't care either way but there can be a difference in the end product; nutrients that are absorbed directly can get into the flesh of the plant and affect the taste. Natural soil has no effect on flavor and presents the full characteristic of a strains flavor profile but require the symbiotic relationship of plant, bacteria, and fungi to work.
To use your example let's say a guy starts a grow in FFOF soil & then thinks his soil is depleted after 6 weeks because the plants are turning pale green. Dude goes and gets a go box and the plants are again a deep green. This had nothing to do with the soil at all. It worked because the nutrients are chelated; the compounds needed for the plant are processed by the manufacturer & are now ready to be absorbed directly by the roots eliminating the need to be broken down by soil microbes or fungi.
If the same dude instead decided to stop using chlorinated tap water, transplanted his plants to a larger container full of recycled FFOF soil & worm castings, and then sprinkled granular mycorrhizae to the hole for transplant instead of going out & buying a GO box his plants turned the same healthy deep green. He achieved the same result without using bottled nutes. That's because the soil added was alive and active with microbial and fungal life which is actively decomposing the amendments added to the soil. Now let's say a few weeks later the plants are flowering and dude is worried the plants may get pale again plus wants big ass buds so he goes and brews up a tea with worm castings, kelp meal, and liquid fish fertilizer. The plants maintain their deep green and begin to pray to their master in grateful homage. The soil microbes are safe and happily eating, fighting, and fucking each other like a giant orgy which makes the fungi and the plants very happy & healthy which produces big ass buds. Dude picks the giant ass buds and is also very happy...and they all lived happily ever after... the end.
 
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so magnesium sulfate and potassium sulfate and sodium molybdate although certified organic aren't organic in the sense of requiring decomp thru natural process

molasses are quick...phosphoric acid is quick P... sea weed is quick

again all of which is not organic in the sense that requires decomp
Molasses is soluble as are most nutrients. It is quick but also safe for living soils. Not everything needs decomposing; molasses in a tea is more for the sucrose than the magnesium. It's kind of a bad source of mag but a good source of easy food for bacterial growth in an AACT.
so wheres the calcium?

they sell the go box with calmag but that's not organic, is it?
GO Calmag+ is safe for living soil but no it is not truly organic much like the other products in the box I assume. Have not used anything else except the calmag which can build up salts if dosed as directed on the label. You only need about 6-10 drops per gal or not the tsp they recommend. 25ppms seems to be the sweet spot. I use it because i use low ppm water reclaimed from a dehumidifier which has no macros. It's not easy to find a soluble form of calcium so unless you can water with rain every time or another clean water source besides RO calmag+ is your best bet. I still add inputs to my mix like composted eggshell for calcium but it takes forever to break down.
 
Molasses is soluble as are most nutrients. It is quick but also safe for living soils. Not everything needs decomposing; molasses in a tea is more for the sucrose than the magnesium. It's kind of a bad source of mag but a good source of easy food for bacterial growth in an AACT.

GO Calmag+ is safe for living soil but no it is not truly organic much like the other products in the box I assume. Have not used anything else except the calmag which can build up salts if dosed as directed on the label. You only need about 6-10 drops per gal or not the tsp they recommend. 25ppms seems to be the sweet spot. I use it because i use low ppm water reclaimed from a dehumidifier which has no macros. It's not easy to find a soluble form of calcium so unless you can water with rain every time or another clean water source besides RO calmag+ is your best bet. I still add inputs to my mix like composted eggshell for calcium but it takes forever to break down.
thanks bubba

that helped a bunch

I do well with the crazy analogies lol.. helps my though process
 
soil amendments require time to break down before available to the plant, depending on biology it could be 2 to 4 weeks before new additions are available

is this also true for liquid organic fertilizers purchased from the hydro store?
are they faster acting or do they also have to break down thru biology over time?

4 weeks is where I'll start to use the soil. Some things take longer to be fully available. The type of things, or the chemical make-up of things also matters to the actual "usefulness" to the plant.

Example: Type or source of Calcium used. Personally, I prefer to mix my Ca sources for plant availability and to buffer the soil.
I use pulverized egg shell, Oyster shell flour, Garden gypsum, and of course the incidental Ca from various other sources. Each has it's job and each are available to the "job" at differing rates.

I do not add any type of bottled form of Ca. If you vary the Ca source used. There is NO need to. I have never had a Ca problem in my "super soils".

As to liquid organic nutrients. These are plant ready organic "sourced and chelated" nutrients.

If you move on to organic fertilizers - You can get into a gray area if they are commercially produced. Some of these in liquid form go both ways.....The liquid manure from our farms (My organic co-op farms) is not "chelated." You spread it and it is broken down by the "living" soil. We also use 1000 gallon Vortex AACT brewers, and lay good active bio's to the soil, every spring. There are things that go into the AACT after brewing too. Kelp extract and FUL HUMIX are the important additions.

Many people think that the living bio's are killed by synthetic or liquid organic nutrient's. Not really how that works. In reality, the living bio's are starved by the lack of being fed. Some die and some go dormant. One of the things that die are soil nematodes. Once gone the soil has a hard time being self reliant - so to speak.

Sourcing carbs can be tricky. Many use Molasses, sadly they do it for the wrong reason. Molasses can be a carb source but, I don't care for the other things it brings to the table. They can build up and cause imbalances. We all know how those can cascade into multiple problems.

I have spent a long time playing with Micro's and the things that "feed" them. I have found things out like:
1: Adding regular AACT to synthetic run grows. Reduces the nutrient "used" levels (or ratios) by 50% and even more! This takes careful attention as whats in that AACT is very important, as they too can bring other things to the table.

2: "I" prefer organic dark brown sugars or simple organic brown sugar. They deliver less of the things that I don't like molasses for. The best part is they deliver more carbs to the living bio's. I get asked why I use DB sugar in my home made "Sweet Raw and Terpinator/Resinator" formula's. Now you can see why. I have these set to feed the bio heard when in bloom. I have told a few folks around here to use them in veg at 5 ml per feeding to help keep that bio heard active in their synthetic use. It appears to help as I've gotten positive responses.

In relation to that. I tried just adding these carbs to feed mix's. It works but, not as much as I would like, although enuff to reduce the nutrient used again.

Care must be taken when employing or applying carbs! Too much and you'll create fermentation and that leads to anaerobic soil. I would hope that we all know what that does.

FYI. I don't add any specific myco inoculant to my soil builds. I find I have plenty from the use of Worm castings and my composted cow manure. You betcha I use our home composted manure. The manure adds a whole new spectrum of fungal's and bacteria's to the party.....I wouldn't do any better adding some store bought, over hyped and most likely not exactly fresh bio's.

@Richard Drysift says it pretty well. The only thing I might add to what I've already said, is that the quality of your super soil is only the quality of what you put in it. The more diverse the bio's, the better it will be (He did say this in his way).
AND
Cooking the soil is the door to success with super soils. How long it's "cooked" is the key that unlocks that door. That how long can be dependent on what exactly you use in that soil. Balancing the release times in the mix's, to be available at the right times. Is the "art" in that room, behind the door.

Did that open some doors for you?
 
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4 weeks is where I'll start to use the soil. Some things take longer to be fully available. The type of things, or the chemical make-up of things also matters to the actual "usefulness" to the plant.

Example: Type or source of Calcium used. Personally, I prefer to mix my Ca sources for plant availability and to buffer the soil.
I use pulverized egg shell, Oyster shell flour, Garden gypsum, and of course the incidental Ca from various other sources. Each has it's job and each are available to the "job" at differing rates.

I do not add any type of bottled form of Ca. If you vary the Ca source used. There is NO need to. I have never had a Ca problem in my "super soils".

As to liquid organic nutrients. These are plant ready organic "sourced and chelated" nutrients.

If you move on to organic fertilizers - You can get into a gray area if they are commercially produced. Some of these in liquid form go both ways.....The liquid manure from our farms (My organic co-op farms) is not "chelated." You spread it and it is broken down by the "living" soil. We also use 1000 gallon Vortex AACT brewers, and lay good active bio's to the soil, every spring. There are things that go into the AACT after brewing too. Kelp extract and FUL HUMIX are the important additions.

Many people think that the living bio's are killed by synthetic or liquid organic nutrient's. Not really how that works. In reality, the living bio's are starved by the lack of being fed. Some die and some go dormant. One of the things that die are soil nematodes. Once gone the soil has a hard time being self reliant - so to speak.

Sourcing carbs can be tricky. Many use Molasses, sadly they do it for the wrong reason. Molasses can be a carb source but, I don't care for the other things it brings to the table. They can build up and cause imbalances. We all know how those can cascade into multiple problems.

I have spent a long time playing with Micro's and the things that "feed" them. I have found things out like:
1: Adding regular AACT to synthetic run grows. Reduces the nutrient "used" levels (or ratios) by 50% and even more! This takes careful attention as whats in that AACT is very important, as they too can bring other things to the table.

2: "I" prefer organic dark brown sugars or simple organic brown sugar. They deliver less of the things that I don't like molasses for. The best part is they deliver more carbs to the living bio's. I get asked why I use DB sugar in my home made "Sweet Raw and Terpinator/Resinator" formula's. Now you can see why. I have these set to feed the bio heard when in bloom. I have told a few folks around here to use them in veg at 5 ml per feeding to help keep that bio heard active in their synthetic use. It appears to help as I've gotten positive responses.

In relation to that. I tried just adding these carbs to feed mix's. It works but, not as much as I would like, although enuff to reduce the nutrient used again.

Care must be taken when employing or applying carbs! Too much and you'll create fermentation and that leads to anaerobic soil. I would hope that we all know what that does.

FYI. I don't add any specific myco inoculant to my soil builds. I find I have plenty from the use of Worm castings and my composted cow manure. You betcha I use our home composted manure. The manure adds a whole new spectrum of fungal's and bacteria's to the party.....I wouldn't do any better adding some store bought, over hyped and most likely not exactly fresh bio's.

@Richard Drysift says it pretty well. The only thing I might add to what I've already said, is that the quality of your super soil is only the quality of what you put in it. The more diverse the bio's, the better it will be (He did say this in his way).
AND
Cooking the soil is the door to success with super soils. How long it's "cooked" is the key that unlocks that door. That how long can be dependent on what exactly you use in that soil. Balancing the release times in the mix's, to be available at the right times. Is the "art" in that room, behind the door.

Did that open some doors for you?
yes and thank you for taking the time to write that
 
4 weeks is where I'll start to use the soil. Some things take longer to be fully available. The type of things, or the chemical make-up of things also matters to the actual "usefulness" to the plant.

Example: Type or source of Calcium used. Personally, I prefer to mix my Ca sources for plant availability and to buffer the soil.
I use pulverized egg shell, Oyster shell flour, Garden gypsum, and of course the incidental Ca from various other sources. Each has it's job and each are available to the "job" at differing rates.

I do not add any type of bottled form of Ca. If you vary the Ca source used. There is NO need to. I have never had a Ca problem in my "super soils".

As to liquid organic nutrients. These are plant ready organic "sourced and chelated" nutrients.

If you move on to organic fertilizers - You can get into a gray area if they are commercially produced. Some of these in liquid form go both ways.....The liquid manure from our farms (My organic co-op farms) is not "chelated." You spread it and it is broken down by the "living" soil. We also use 1000 gallon Vortex AACT brewers, and lay good active bio's to the soil, every spring. There are things that go into the AACT after brewing too. Kelp extract and FUL HUMIX are the important additions.

Many people think that the living bio's are killed by synthetic or liquid organic nutrient's. Not really how that works. In reality, the living bio's are starved by the lack of being fed. Some die and some go dormant. One of the things that die are soil nematodes. Once gone the soil has a hard time being self reliant - so to speak.

Sourcing carbs can be tricky. Many use Molasses, sadly they do it for the wrong reason. Molasses can be a carb source but, I don't care for the other things it brings to the table. They can build up and cause imbalances. We all know how those can cascade into multiple problems.

I have spent a long time playing with Micro's and the things that "feed" them. I have found things out like:
1: Adding regular AACT to synthetic run grows. Reduces the nutrient "used" levels (or ratios) by 50% and even more! This takes careful attention as whats in that AACT is very important, as they too can bring other things to the table.

2: "I" prefer organic dark brown sugars or simple organic brown sugar. They deliver less of the things that I don't like molasses for. The best part is they deliver more carbs to the living bio's. I get asked why I use DB sugar in my home made "Sweet Raw and Terpinator/Resinator" formula's. Now you can see why. I have these set to feed the bio heard when in bloom. I have told a few folks around here to use them in veg at 5 ml per feeding to help keep that bio heard active in their synthetic use. It appears to help as I've gotten positive responses.

In relation to that. I tried just adding these carbs to feed mix's. It works but, not as much as I would like, although enuff to reduce the nutrient used again.

Care must be taken when employing or applying carbs! Too much and you'll create fermentation and that leads to anaerobic soil. I would hope that we all know what that does.

FYI. I don't add any specific myco inoculant to my soil builds. I find I have plenty from the use of Worm castings and my composted cow manure. You betcha I use our home composted manure. The manure adds a whole new spectrum of fungal's and bacteria's to the party.....I wouldn't do any better adding some store bought, over hyped and most likely not exactly fresh bio's.

@Richard Drysift says it pretty well. The only thing I might add to what I've already said, is that the quality of your super soil is only the quality of what you put in it. The more diverse the bio's, the better it will be (He did say this in his way).
AND
Cooking the soil is the door to success with super soils. How long it's "cooked" is the key that unlocks that door. That how long can be dependent on what exactly you use in that soil. Balancing the release times in the mix's, to be available at the right times. Is the "art" in that room, behind the door.

Did that open some doors for you?
I would love to stop using calmag+ altogether but I guess not only am I a creature of habit I also want my plants to stay happy & healthy. They are so green that I'm skeptical of changing my routine. I have to ask what kind of water source do you use?
It's my understanding that if you use water sources that do not contain macros like RO or distilled then you also need a soluble form of cal/mag to help absorb the other nutrients from the soil. I amend with gypsum, D-lime, and crushed oyster shell among other things to my recycling mix plus add eggshells to the EWC from my worm bin. Am I overkilling it? I ask because I'm getting to the end of a bottle and don't want to order it again if I don't have to.
 
for what its worth

I used 50/50 dolomite lime/oyster shell

about 1.5 cups combined to 7.5 gallons /1 cubic ft

8 weeks veg
9 weeks flower

pot sizes
6"
5 gallon
20 gallon

had enough calcium to make it to the end but ran out of magnesium about 4 to 5 weeks into bloom

well water PH 7.5 - EC 0.4 (never tested)
 
I just re-amended some 1x used ffof soil I add only 1 cup gypsum per cubic ft and 1.5 cups mix

mix
2part kelp
1part neem
1part alfalfa
1part crab
1/2 part fish

and I also added 2.5 oz feather meal and 2 oz bone meal

not sure if itll make it to the end or not but im about to find out going into bloom in a week
 
Does a super soil need to be open to breathe, while cooking?
I'm about to make my first batch, and can I put it back into the 50L plastic soil bag and peg it closed - or should I put it into a big fabric pot etc.
 
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