Let me get this straight...

I keep hearing all this chatter on how if someone doesn't pay a person a livable wage they are "part of the problem." This livable wage seems to be based on the needs of a family of four regardless of who is likely to be doing the work or what the work is worth.

So, let me get this straight.

If I, as an employer, have work that I would like done what standards must I meet to be doing the right thing?

Suppose I need someone to sweep up, take out the trash and maybe clean the bathrooms on occasion. And, I am willing to pay $7 per hour cash for this work.

Now, the way I see it, this would be good work for some kid as an after school thing or something like that. And to a kid, $7 per hour cash is damn good money.

Now, am I in the wrong for offering to pay that wage even if that is all the work is worth to me?

What if some guy from the neighborhood is out of work and wants the job - should I not hire him because the wage is unfair?

What if he really wants the job at that wage?

If the work really isn't worth more to me would it be preferable to just not hire anyone and let the work slide rather than paying this "sub-standard" wage?

What if I was running a business with thin margins and could only afford to pay $7 per hour - would it be better to close the business?

Why is it assumed that pay for all jobs ought to match what it takes to raise a family of four? Isn't it possible that maybe some jobs are a better fit for a teenager?

Should business' determine pay based on the need of the applicant rather than the value of the work? If I run a Tim Horton's which relies on inexpensive labor, should I limit my job offering to kids only?

I'm hoping all you guys talking about how everyone deserves a fair wage will step up and explain how all these questions factor into your logic with regard to fair wages.

i agree
i should be able to offer whatever i want as pay
you dont have to work for me
the pay i offer maybe perfect for someone
i kind of understand the wage idea as, "they" dont want billion dollar compaies paing there workers 5 an hr
when they can ezly pay them 15 and still make billions- but i really dont know

Come on, with as many opinions people have on this issue I'd expect numerous responses.

I guess when you boil off all the bombast and get down to brass tacks, people suddenly have nothing to say - it figures.

when I was a kid (16 and 17) I made 18 dollars an hour and that was 22 years ago. $7 an hour is a bit more than half what the Local McDonalds pays to start ($13) and Md's is giving a $500 hiring bonus to boot. I can imagine the only people who would work for you are the special needs kids who get bussed to work for their supervised 4 hour shift.

BUT I completely agree with you. If you can find a good employee who is willing to work for slave wages, then all the more power to ya.

An aside. If we had money that kept its value then $7 an hour under the gold standard of old would be like $50 an hour now equivalent.

NoDrama said:

when I was a kid (16 and 17) I made 18 dollars an hour and that was 22 years ago. $7 an hour is a bit more than half what the Local McDonalds pays to start ($13) and Md's is giving a $500 hiring bonus to boot. I can imagine the only people who would work for you are the special needs kids who get bussed to work for their supervised 4 hour shift.

BUT I completely agree with you. If you can find a good employee who is willing to work for slave wages, then all the more power to ya.

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Where do you live Manhattan? McD's around here pays around minimum wage as do all fast food places. It would be rare to find any entry level position in the Mid West that pays more than $8-$10 per hour. I think your average big box store starts at around $8 on the books for an adult - maybe less for kids.

Anyway, none of this answers my questions.

I am assuming by saying $7 cash means "under the table".

So yeah, i think that is good money for someone who takes out the trash.

I have no issue with wages being offered. The same people that bitch and complain about Wal Mart pushing out small business are the same people that hypocritically still shop there because, they, like everyone else, want to pay the least they can for everything. Imo, the only way our "convenient" technology-based society will ever return to more of a local, farm-based society, is out of natural disaster. Then, and only then, will we return to "a living wage". Until then, enjoy your convenient lifestyle and thank God you don't live somewhere worse like the third world.

NoDrama said:

when I was a kid (16 and 17) I made 18 dollars an hour and that was 22 years ago. $7 an hour is a bit more than half what the Local McDonalds pays to start ($13) and Md's is giving a $500 hiring bonus to boot. I can imagine the only people who would work for you are the special needs kids who get bussed to work for their supervised 4 hour shift.

BUT I completely agree with you. If you can find a good employee who is willing to work for slave wages, then all the more power to ya.

An aside. If we had money that kept its value then $7 an hour under the gold standard of old would be like $50 an hour now equivalent.

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Exactly. Of course when the currency is inflated it skews everything. I'm afraid that bit of information isn't as well known or comprehended as it should be.

When my dad was alive he bored me with alot of economic small talk. At the time I resented it, now I understand what he was talking about.

For those seeking more information on how the economy really works, read up on some of Ron Paul's writings. He's head and shoulders above the pack of dumbed down politicians, which is another reason he won't get elected. People don't understand him, they have to think and that's too much work.

A living wage is just redistribution. "Fairness" only has a place within socialism where you use ambiguous criteria to transfer wealth and power.
Capitalism - Art is in the eye of the beholder, and takes on a relative value. Productive work is in the eye of the employer or market and takes on a relative value. Should artists be afforded a minimum wage ?

Question about inflation :
If people earn more than they produce, through a "living wage", doesn't this cause inflation ? Since government employees don't produce anything, aren't they all contributing to inflation, which decreases the value of everyone's money, in addition to the direct drain on the economy from taxes ?
To make this more "fair", shouldn't all employees of the federal government work for the minimum "living wage" to limit the damage, since some government is necessary ? ( with an exception for high-risk jobs such as law enforcement and the military ) And for that matter, how can you have government employee unions ? Aren't these unions bargaining against the American people ? How does an entity that doesn't produce anything have any additional benefits as if there were a profit to share ?
Just a thought.

One should be able to choose to be a free capitalist or a slave to the government, you can't pick and choose which aspects of both you like for any given job, or you ruin capitalism and destroy the meaning of the dollar.

Man o' the green said:

A living wage is just redistribution. "Fairness" only has a place within socialism where you use ambiguous criteria to transfer wealth and power.
Capitalism - Art is in the eye of the beholder, and takes on a relative value. Productive work is in the eye of the employer or market and takes on a relative value. Should artists be afforded a minimum wage ?

Question about inflation :
If people earn more than they produce, through a "living wage", doesn't this cause inflation ? Since government employees don't produce anything, aren't they all contributing to inflation, which decreases the value of everyone's money, in addition to the direct drain on the economy from taxes ?
To make this more "fair", shouldn't all employees of the federal government work for the minimum "living wage" to limit the damage, since some government is necessary ? ( with an exception for high-risk jobs such as law enforcement and the military ) And for that matter, how can you have government employee unions ? Aren't these unions bargaining against the American people ? How does an entity that doesn't produce anything have any additional benefits as if there were a profit to share ?
Just a thought.

One should be able to choose to be a free capitalist or a slave to the government, you can't pick and choose which aspects of both you like for any given job, or you ruin capitalism and destroy the meaning of the dollar.

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answer about inflation: Inflation is the result of a little something called opportunity cost. by lending you my money, and you using it for whatever you want, you pay me for me not being able to use that money how ever I wanted, this is called the INTEREST RATE.

it has nothing to do with employer's and wages.

it's about lenders and borrowers.

in the financial system, you are a lender, a bank is a borrower.

you lend money to the bank by opening a bank account, they take those funds and use it how they see fit. but the bank has to give you something for taking away your ability to use that money whenever you want. INTEREST.

the more you know.......

redivider said:

answer about inflation: Inflation is the result of a little something called opportunity cost. by lending you my money, and you using it for whatever you want, you pay me for me not being able to use that money how ever I wanted, this is called the INTEREST RATE.

it has nothing to do with employer's and wages.

it's about lenders and borrowers.

in the financial system, you are a lender, a bank is a borrower.

you lend money to the bank by opening a bank account, they take those funds and use it how they see fit. but the bank has to give you something for taking away your ability to use that money whenever you want. INTEREST.

the more you know.......

Click to expand...

Thanks for the answer; exactly what I was looking for.
I've done more research on inflation, and agree that my view is flawed. There seem to be many schools of thought on complex reasons for inflation ( including the one above )

Guys, while all of you may have valid points, I don't want this thread to get off topic.

I want to hear answers to my questions from those who are always whining about how unfair everything is and how the rich have stacked the deck so that the poor can not succeed.

My intention is to bring up a real life scenario in which people are forced to apply their reasoning.

However, I do find it telling that none of them have responded thus far. When faced with a situation in which their logic falls on it's own face, they develop cognitive dissonance and simply choose not to entertain the question. That is the difference between the Right and the Left. The Right concerns themselves with actual facts where the rubber meets the road and the Left concerns themselves with pie in the sky theory that fails in the real world.

So, still waiting...

RickWhite said:

I want to hear answers to my questions from those who are always whining about how unfair everything is and how the rich have stacked the deck so that the poor can not succeed.
.

So, still waiting...

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Ok Rick, Im between my day job and night job, I have a few minutes; Im game.

earlier you posted this:
"Look; hang out a sign for a $10 per hour job and see who applies. Do you really think you will get a personable 30 year old with an awesome work ethic and great people skills who is reliable and trustworthy and shows up bright eyed and bushy tailed? Fuck no you wont - you will be lucky to get a schmuck who shows up most of the time, doesn't drag his feet too much and doesn't steal from you. If you doubt this, it's because you have never hired an employee for such a job."

To me that sounds like you are whining, whining because you cant find a quality employee for $10 an hour.
You said it yourself, at that pay rate all you're gonna find is the bottom of the barrel.
As I said before, if you want to pay that rate its fine w/ me. A burger flipper or gas pumper doesnt deserve to make any higher of a wage due to their age or family situation

Do me a favor this time, im more than happy to debate our thoughts, but PLEASE leave insulting me out of it. Theres no need.