Led vs HPS growing

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
:wall:

Last updates to your thread were sometime in July and apparently your a Brokedick RENTER that can't control bud rot? :confused:
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
In what wavelength region are HID lights usually measured in terms of quantitative photon output? Usually typical white CRI LED have zero to offer below 400nm and very little above 700nm, so if we expand the conventional PAR range to include partly UV (280nm-) and FR (-760nm) MH & HPS should gain in umol output.

Not necessarily implying now that the extreme IR output should be counted but a MHs UVB & UVA radiation is very precious to weed growers (perhaps even more of a value than photosynthetic photons as we want trichs and not low-cannabinoid buds...

HPS also has a strong FR endpeak which is sending the plants to sleep right upon the lamp termination whereas LED need to muster up a FR mono rack on another channel. The FR sleep initiation increases the window for a plants photorespiration/"dark breath" by approx. 90mins.

Just to compare PAR vs PAR is bogus and an uneven comparison.
 

Kushash

Well-Known Member
In what wavelength region are HID lights usually measured in terms of quantitative photon output? Usually typical white CRI LED have zero to offer below 400nm and very little above 700nm, so if we expand the conventional PAR range to include partly UV (280nm-) and FR (-760nm) MH & HPS should gain in umol output.

Not necessarily implying now that the extreme IR output should be counted but a MHs UVB & UVA radiation is very precious to weed growers (perhaps even more of a value than photosynthetic photons as we want trichs and not low-cannabinoid buds...

HPS also has a strong FR endpeak which is sending the plants to sleep right upon the lamp termination whereas LED need to muster up a FR mono rack on another channel. The FR sleep initiation increases the window for a plants photorespiration/"dark breath" by approx. 90mins.

Just to compare PAR vs PAR is bogus and an uneven comparison.
This made my head hurt. Was ready for trash talk and I get PAR and umol.
On the other hand:
Just to compare PAR vs PAR is bogus and an uneven comparison might help get things rolling. ;)
 

hybridway2

Well-Known Member
In what wavelength region are HID lights usually measured in terms of quantitative photon output? Usually typical white CRI LED have zero to offer below 400nm and very little above 700nm, so if we expand the conventional PAR range to include partly UV (280nm-) and FR (-760nm) MH & HPS should gain in umol output.

Not necessarily implying now that the extreme IR output should be counted but a MHs UVB & UVA radiation is very precious to weed growers (perhaps even more of a value than photosynthetic photons as we want trichs and not low-cannabinoid buds...

HPS also has a strong FR endpeak which is sending the plants to sleep right upon the lamp termination whereas LED need to muster up a FR mono rack on another channel. The FR sleep initiation increases the window for a plants photorespiration/"dark breath" by approx. 90mins.

Just to compare PAR vs PAR is bogus and an uneven comparison.
Agreed. Par #'s mean very little unless one understands the spectral responses. Advantages + disadvantages.
Hps has that ir spike way outside the par region, if not for that one spike, i bet the efficiency as we know it would be much greater.
 

hybridway2

Well-Known Member
This made my head hurt. Was ready for trash talk and I get PAR and umol.
On the other hand:
Just to compare PAR vs PAR is bogus and an uneven comparison might help get things rolling. ;)
Yeah, get things rolling for a big debate, leading to an argument & another one of my threads shut down.
I wish we could discuss more.
 

sethimus

Well-Known Member
Last updates to your thread were sometime in July and apparently your a Brokedick RENTER that can't control bud rot? :confused:
renting is quite normal around here, only about 40% own real estate. but hey, enjoy your american cardbox house. i rather live in something solid that won’t crumble if there is a bit of wind.
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Was ready for trash talk
LOL tbh I've discarded a response involving the subject of kindergarten & diapers.... ähem... I think some of the flames are actually caused by the hangover syndrom alot of smokers underestimate... the laughs n giggles in the evening are offset by an antagonistic neuro-electrical response - causing frustration and sour emotions in the morning if one smokes too heavily... at least, I experience this with me... so from time to time it's good to take a rest until neural tolerance is back to normal again. :peace:

***

The other problem with quantum meters seem that a spikey spectrum seems to introduce a great measuring error:
QuantumMeterAbberration.png
take it with a grain of salt - as it's just a tiny study with very little hardware.

Ever since @Grow Lights Australia mentioned "Yield Photon Flux" this topic became a rich source of ideas & inspiration. I'm actually wadeing kneedeep in dry college books in order to find out where the potential cut off for Cannabis in the far-red region for photosynthetic photons truly is.

So FR can have help in the acquisition of biomass by contributing photons to photosystem I, initiate hormone/photomorphogenic responses, and also deliver some heat (which may be used to increase a plants metabolism if the growconditions aren't optimal - for example in a stone basement grow....)

But I'm not finding a precise answer, so still looking for clues.... actually these photons 700-800nm theoretically should still be able to excitate/elevate an electron. At least, cyano bacteria can absorb IR photons and do photosynthesis with it - bacteriachlorophyl b has even an absorption peak at 1020nm! (but it may not be the same process as with green landplants)...

But perhaps there is no absorption possible of these wavelengths in the light harvesting complexes of landplants...

To make some sense out of it I've just send Dr. Bugbee a letter about some of these topics so may brain can finally cool down a little XD
perhaps he reads it at the weekend...

Or maybe someone with more knowledge n experience can chime in here... guess the 730nm are a no-brainer but there are also 850nm monos available. Now HPS/CMH cranks out a boatload here. While a high-quality LED emitts twice the PAR umol than HPS - but I'm NOT experiencing that these LED also net twice the weight in harvest. More like 30%. And LED sucks if temps are just somewhere below 20°C...

Maybe IR still has some unexplored properties. As it heats from within, it may be a stimulus? If we look at the sun - there's even much more IR than what a HPS can do, and plants had more than 500mio years to adapt to this radiation.
Then, the natural sun spectrum changes to incorporate more red/darkred signalling the plants to ripen, additionally temps decrease.
All of this is a huge complex bound together and flower induction remains still partially a mystery to even the best scientists ("florigen")

:weed:
 

Attachments

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
In what wavelength region are HID lights usually measured in terms of quantitative photon output? Usually typical white CRI LED have zero to offer below 400nm and very little above 700nm, so if we expand the conventional PAR range to include partly UV (280nm-) and FR (-760nm) MH & HPS should gain in umol output.

Not necessarily implying now that the extreme IR output should be counted but a MHs UVB & UVA radiation is very precious to weed growers (perhaps even more of a value than photosynthetic photons as we want trichs and not low-cannabinoid buds...

HPS also has a strong FR endpeak which is sending the plants to sleep right upon the lamp termination whereas LED need to muster up a FR mono rack on another channel. The FR sleep initiation increases the window for a plants photorespiration/"dark breath" by approx. 90mins.

Just to compare PAR vs PAR is bogus and an uneven comparison.
The term that is gaining traction as becoming standardization is PBAR (Plant Biologically Active Radiation)
You are definitely on the right thought path despite the naysayers :peace:
 

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
renting is quite normal around here, only about 40% own real estate. but hey, enjoy your american cardbox house. i rather live in something solid that won’t crumble if there is a bit of wind.
Now that's funny and we are actually finally having a bit of a conversation.
My American Cardbox has been through several earthquakes, hurricane like coastal winds, and multiple tsunami events.
Enjoy answering to the man and chopping your grow every time they want to hang a smoke detector or plunge your big pile of shit down the drain :peace:
 

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
LOL tbh I've discarded a response involving the subject of kindergarten & diapers.... ähem... I think some of the flames are actually caused by the hangover syndrom alot of smokers underestimate... the laughs n giggles in the evening are offset by an antagonistic neuro-electrical response - causing frustration and sour emotions in the morning if one smokes too heavily... at least, I experience this with me... so from time to time it's good to take a rest until neural tolerance is back to normal again. :peace:

***

The other problem with quantum meters seem that a spikey spectrum seems to introduce a great measuring error:
View attachment 4652328
take it with a grain of salt - as it's just a tiny study with very little hardware.

Ever since @Grow Lights Australia mentioned "Yield Photon Flux" this topic became a rich source of ideas & inspiration. I'm actually wadeing kneedeep in dry college books in order to find out where the potential cut off for Cannabis in the far-red region for photosynthetic photons truly is.

So FR can have help in the acquisition of biomass by contributing photons to photosystem I, initiate hormone/photomorphogenic responses, and also deliver some heat (which may be used to increase a plants metabolism if the growconditions aren't optimal - for example in a stone basement grow....)

But I'm not finding a precise answer, so still looking for clues.... actually these photons 700-800nm theoretically should still be able to excitate/elevate an electron. At least, cyano bacteria can absorb IR photons and do photosynthesis with it - bacteriachlorophyl b has even an absorption peak at 1020nm! (but it may not be the same process as with green landplants)...

But perhaps there is no absorption possible of these wavelengths in the light harvesting complexes of landplants...

To make some sense out of it I've just send Dr. Bugbee a letter about some of these topics so may brain can finally cool down a little XD
perhaps he reads it at the weekend...

Or maybe someone with more knowledge n experience can chime in here... guess the 730nm are a no-brainer but there are also 850nm monos available. Now HPS/CMH cranks out a boatload here. While a high-quality LED emitts twice the PAR umol than HPS - but I'm NOT experiencing that these LED also net twice the weight in harvest. More like 30%. And LED sucks if temps are just somewhere below 20°C...

Maybe IR still has some unexplored properties. As it heats from within, it may be a stimulus? If we look at the sun - there's even much more IR than what a HPS can do, and plants had more than 500mio years to adapt to this radiation.
Then, the natural sun spectrum changes to incorporate more red/darkred signalling the plants to ripen, additionally temps decrease.
All of this is a huge complex bound together and flower induction remains still partially a mystery to even the best scientists ("florigen")

:weed:
I have discussed with others many times that the strong points of led are truly not being utilized, most likely due to cost. A company with true science and research background will come along and analyze sunlight nm by nm and use the appropriate diodes to produce a true solar spectrum.
Till then the believers will continue to settle on spectrum deficiency in the name of saving a few watts per umole
 

hillbill

Well-Known Member
Added an old 250w Philips CMH to the flower tent April 1 to pick up a little UVA and IR. Everything else is and was white COBs and Boards. The plants have loved it from the start and the little garden always looks like Pentecostals. Strains I know seem a little smellier and definitely more sticky. Appropriate 420 watts of LEDs in there.
 

lukio

Well-Known Member
A company with true science and research background will come along and analyze sunlight nm by nm and use the appropriate diodes to produce a true solar spectrum.
lol. indoor weed is nicer than outdoor.

anyhoo, how are your "wonky deficient led" plants ? are you still struggling?

ive seen a lot of big commercial led grow ops popping up...that must hurt your tiny brain, no?
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
i bet the efficiency as we know it would be much greater.
Yes, well, these IR photons carry less energy than PAR photons so if we could shift them into the 600-700nm region the increase in the curve would be diminished to ~~50%-75% of the original IR curve (very grossly estimated now - but it can be calculated quite easily...)

HPS-Spectrum-350x900.jpg
^^ in this case, if the IR spike would just be half it would be perfect IMO (just like a CMH has) ^^

just to illustrate an example for the relative differences in energy-content:
Photonenenergie.png

Bugbee mentioned that FR/IR photons are very energetically efficient to create and if we can take them in in a productive way, they are a nobrainer.
As for UV - which reaches down to 280nm, it's very costly, and even destructive to LED tech.
So that's why I don't have a grudge against high Kelvin-rated MH lamps, as these photons are precious from a certain point of view, esp. in combination with white CRI LED "filling in the gap beyond the Soret-peak" or "completing the spectrum to be more sunlike and less monochromatic"

MH.png

Then, the green -controversial- wavelength ... LEDs currently do not excel here at all... but there are some high CRI CMH lamps:
315W-spectrum-UVcallout.png
^^ should have quite some penetration power ^^
Actually this lamp is designed for photography etc as it has a CRI 98 and high irradiance.

Compare this to the irradiance of the sun:
heZ5C.png

But my fave in terms of spectrum is still the MH & HPS duallamp:
DualArc_LU1000MHhtlEN-noheader-nf.png
^^ not perfect (could add some 660nm monos, and have more green) but may highly meet the 1:4 ratio of blue:red (400-500nm : 600-700nm) where net photosynthesis is highest ^^

There are some CMH lamps that come very close, or even slightly better, than this but, as you can see, most of these spectral sheets don't even show the complete range! (mind-boggling that a manufacturer of a plant-light de-values its own product - AS IF only PAR would matter!)

TBH I think all CMH or MH/HPS combos make an excellent sunlike spectrum. (LEP/ Plasma/ Mercury vapour as well...)

The sun (for comparison):
Sunlight_spectrum_Fiji_July.jpg

I wonder how good LED would fare if one would build a rack that would imitate either a HPS, MH or CMH lamp spectrum-wise? Would they still crank more umols out?

Another thing to consider is that some HID lamps are deadcheap and therefore, can easily be swapped as a means to change the spectrum when needed or beneficial (flower induction, ripening, manipulating internode length etc)

Now I've made a huge case in favour of HIDs but one thing to keep in mind is that HID technology is at the end of its development whereas LED will gain each year- and actually IS already better in terms of raw umol output IF we allow ourselves to compare the raw output of different spectra against each another (actually an apple-vs-orange comparison IMO....)
 
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OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
Yes, well, these IR photons carry less energy than PAR photons so if we could shift them into the 600-700nm region the increase in the curve would be diminished to ~~50%-75% of the original IR curve (very grossly estimated now - but it can be calculated quite easily...)

View attachment 4652405
^^ in this case, if the IR spike would just be half it would be perfect IMO (just like a CMH has) ^^

just to illustrate an example for the relative differences in energy-content:
View attachment 4652412

Bugbee mentioned that FR/IR photons are very energetically efficient to create and if we can take them in in a productive way, they are a nobrainer.
As for UV - which reaches down to 280nm, it's very costly, and even destructive to LED tech.
So that's why I don't have a grudge against high Kelvin-rated MH lamps, as these photons are precious from a certain point of view, esp. in combination with white CRI LED "filling in the gap beyond the Soret-peak" or "completing the spectrum to be more sunlike and less monochromatic"

View attachment 4652418

Then, the green -controversial- wavelength ... LEDs currently do not excel here at all... but there are some high CRI CMH lamps:
View attachment 4652424
^^ should have quite some penetration power ^^
Actually this lamp is designed for photography etc as it has a CRI 98 and high irradiance.

Compare this to the irradiance of the sun:
View attachment 4652428

But my fave in terms of spectrum is still the MH & HPS duallamp:
View attachment 4652438
^^ not perfect (could add some 660nm monos, and have more green) but may highly meet the 1:4 ratio of blue:red (400-500nm : 600-700nm) where net photosynthesis is highest ^^

There are some CMH lamps that come very close, or even slightly better, than this but, as you can see, most of these spectral sheets don't even show the complete range! (mind-boggling that a manufacturer of a plant-light de-values its own product - AS IF only PAR would matter!)

TBH I think all CMH or MH/HPS combos make an excellent sunlike spectrum. (LEP/ Plasma/ Mercury vapour as well...)

The sun (for comparison):
View attachment 4652450

I wonder how good LED would fare if one would build a rack that would imitate either a HPS, MH or CMH lamp spectrum-wise? Would they still crank more umols out?

Another thing to consider is that some HID lamps are deadcheap and therefore, can easily be swapped as a means to change the spectrum when needed or beneficial (flower induction, ripening, manipulating internode length etc)

Now I've made a huge case in favour of HIDs but one thing to keep in mind is that HID technology is at the end of its development whereas LED will gain each year- and actually IS already better in terms of raw umol output IF we allow ourselves to compare the raw output of different spectra against each another (actually an apple-vs-orange comparison IMO....)
YES!!!
We know HPS grows dank, why led folks are trying to vary so far from that spectrum rather than just try to produce it with a higher electrical efficiency is the Million Dollar question :peace:
 

B|uDreamer

Well-Known Member
YES!!!
We know HPS grows dank, why led folks are trying to vary so far from that spectrum rather than just try to produce it with a higher electrical efficiency is the Million Dollar question :peace:
Because up until very recently reproducing that spectrum exactly with LED wouldn't have been more efficient in terms of electricity. Adding all the IR also negates the "less heat" that many touted as an LED advantage as well.

Cost would still be an issue today if you truly want a 1:1 reproduction of the spectrum.
 
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