LED questions (and some more)

Pantar · Apr 3, 2015

Hello guys,
I need some help from those who know more.
I grow with average 1200PPM CO2.
Seems like 1500µmoles/m2/s and 30ºC is a nice spot, my question is, when im measuring lux under my HPS, how many should i give to the plants to reach 1500µmoles/m2/s, 125000lux? I never give more than 80-90k and im using CO2.
Another thing that im worried about are the VPD charts, they say 80% humidity is fine for 30ºC, but in most grow charts they usually recommend much lower RH specially during flowering. Is it just because of the molds? Can i go with high humidity, or should i stick to 40%-60%RH in flowering?
Anyone has some charts for soil/hydro? Im a chart whore.

And now the real questions:
I want to build a 1mx1m (floration only) table powered by LEDs, it will be a rockwool hydro SOG with CO2 enrichment. Im trying to find out how many lights i need and the disposition, im trying to find all the details i need in the forum, but stardustsailor is making me go very slow with all his scientific articles and my head is already about to explode.
I want to use 3000k white COBs (unless you guys have a better idea). I have seen very efficient bridgelux COBs with 140w/lumen, cheaper price compared to CREE and a beautiful color spectrum, why is everyone using CREE? I want to use the best/most cost efficient though.
Said this, if i was using 3000k CXB 3070, how many i would need for 1m2-1,2m2 to "match" or improve the production of 600W HPS with CO2 enritchment, high temps, etc. How would you distribute them?
Im going to keep reading, my clones are soon ready for the flower room.

Thanks!

PS: If the 3590s are a better option im up for it, i just need to know the minimum height from the canopy for those lights and ideal distribution.

SupraSPL · Apr 3, 2015

All charts I have seen show a strong droop as PPFD increases toward 1500. There is probably a Pareto type efficiency at a much lower intensity unless you are very severely space limited.

SupraSPL · Apr 3, 2015

Certain varieties are much more susceptible to bud mold than others. Even at 55% humidity I have to be careful of white mold in the center of the largest colas, but only on certain varieties. Also, if you are in an area with PM you could run into trouble with that.

It is a tough decision deciding what efficiency to run at. If you are paying a lot for electricity/AC or you need an extra level of stealth, high efficiency (CXB) might be worth investing in. But if you want a great flowering LED and bang for the buck, the Vero 29 3K V2.0 run at 2.15A (79W) on a CPU cooler is pretty tough to beat. You could even go up to 2.55A (103.5W) with the HLN-80H-36 and get 36% efficiency.

SupraSPL · Apr 3, 2015

Do you have pics of the buds as they are finishing? I have a theory that canopy temps above 80f is causing some varieties to be fluffier and take longer to finish (lots of white pistils at 60 days). I run at 800-1200 ppm CO2 also but keeping canopy temps at 80 or lower.

heckler73 · Apr 4, 2015

Pantar said:
but stardustsailor is making me go very slow with all his scientific articles and my head is already about to explode.

That's normal...it means the medicine is working :lol:

Pantar · Apr 4, 2015

Ok, this are some pics from last harvest under a 400HPS, 11l pots, 6 plants 0,84m2 inside a closet, 45 days into bloom and harvested at 50-52, thats a nice cola. Soil all mix Biobizz, and nutes just biogrow in veg and biobloom in bloom

. For most part of the grow the air temp was 26ºC+ and 35-36ºC at canopy level (the distance to the bulb was bad) and RH was within the normal range. Dont know the wet/dry weight as we dont even have a balance at home, the weed is very tasty though and kinda "organic". My housemate has grown for 10+ years but pretty much likes to leave the plants on their own and sing them every once in a while, but i like to take things to the next couple of levels (specially since we run out of weed often).

I will upload some pictures in a couple of days of the current room, im away from home atm. The temperatures are in the 29-30ºC range and will remain like that until a couple of weeks before harvest or even until harvest since we have plants mixed in the same room with different flora times, so this may be a nice test enviroment, as planned. The CO2 has a peak of 1500+ when lights start and progresively drops to 800-900 during the 12hours period. The CO2 is obtained with fermentation

. During dark hours the CO2 is stored in balloons and released when lights are on (CO2 test was good, CO2 tank coming soon). Air is recirculated through the ventilation system so there are minimal loses, CO2 never drops below 750 when venting.

Im growing now under 400HPS: Delahaze, Chemdog, AK-47, Cheese, and some Critical + hybrids, they have 3 weeks of flora and 3 days. No training, switched to flora at 25-30cm height.
Also growing with 6 days into bloom under MarsII hydro 1200: Critical +, Autoblueberry (with some nice buds already), Super Skunk, Matanuska and 2 unknown seeds from buds we smoked

. Switched to flora at 30-40cm height
Each group vegs and blooms under different lights, but we also separated 4 mothers and changed them from LED to 250HPS grolux bloom-flora

, they suffered for a couple days but now they look great: moby dick, jack herer, dragon and chocolope.

I planned this room as a testing and learning place, im adding an aerofarm and a aquafarm from GH that i bought from a friend and its just going to be a lot of fun. Anything you need let me know

I was thinking about some CXB3070 with HLG-185H-C1400, 4 COBs per driver and as many COBs as needed. But that Vero 29 3K V2.0 sounds great, i dont want to sound lazy, but what COB distribution would you build for my particular conditions (1mx1m, CO2, etc) for either CXB and Vero 29 3K V2.0?
If you ask me, considering how fast LEDs are improving i rather get the bang for the buck and then give away or sell the LEDs when better ones come. I havent done all my homework yet, but if i can start buying asap some of the parts that will take longer to arrive it would be great.

Im really enjoying this forum, keep it up!

PS: Does the stepping of the COB influence the plants? Should the smallest step be used if available?

Alienwidow · Apr 4, 2015

Charts no, drop the humidity yes. Get another dehu. The dryer the air in fower the better.

testiclees · Apr 7, 2015

I'm not sure if I've got this set for max benefit. The plant in the left is just finished stretching. I thought I observed the start of bleaching on the top leaves so I moved the light up about 2 inches about 5 days ago.

The plants in the middle (3 western winds in a 15gal) are 9 days into 11/13. Their stretch is just getting in gear.

The plant on the far right was damaged during my light travails. Even though it's the furthest from the light it's buds are swelling nicely. That main top is about as thick as a medium lemon.

So I'm wondering if I should 1) leave things be 2) lower lights a bit 3) remove lenses and lower 4) remove lenses on left side only. OR....

18 days under this light.

SHIT SORRY ABOUT FORMAT IM BAFFLED BY THE UPLOAD ACTION

SupraSPL · Apr 9, 2015

Hey man, nothing to worry about as far as bleaching from what I can see. The only thing they might be a bit crowded unless you pruned the underbrush. How big is the space?

testiclees · Apr 9, 2015

Thanks for taking a look. The space is 2 x 4'. I've got nearly 5' of height.

I cleaned up the underbrush pretty good when I flipped them but they might benefit from some defol.

I'll have a bit more space soon because the damaged plant is about 4weeks ahead of the others. She should be done in 3-4 weeks.

Pantar · Apr 11, 2015

Some photos taken with the phone (bad quality), the closer ones are from critical+ and ak-47 that changed to flower the 12/03/2015, the one with the hand and led light is an autoblueberry that started from seed the 11/02/2015 and showed flowers the 20/03/2015, they got regular light scheldule with the plants on the right, im unsure how much longer she needs (let me know if you do). I just gave today/yesterday pk1314 to the C+'s and ak, they should be ready to harvest within 3 weeks following the seed bank estimations.
There are a couple photos of the area too, its around 2x1m, sativas at the left, indicas at the right, many different strains. PPM around 1k, temps around 28ºC, normally around 29,5-30ºC.

Doer · Apr 11, 2015

Pantar said:
Ok, this are some pics from last harvest under a 400HPS, 11l pots, 6 plants 0,84m2 inside a closet, 45 days into bloom and harvested at 50-52, thats a nice cola. Soil all mix Biobizz, and nutes just biogrow in veg and biobloom in bloom . For most part of the grow the air temp was 26ºC+ and 35-36ºC at canopy level (the distance to the bulb was bad) and RH was within the normal range. Dont know the wet/dry weight as we dont even have a balance at home, the weed is very tasty though and kinda "organic". My housemate has grown for 10+ years but pretty much likes to leave the plants on their own and sing them every once in a while, but i like to take things to the next couple of levels (specially since we run out of weed often).

I will upload some pictures in a couple of days of the current room, im away from home atm. The temperatures are in the 29-30ºC range and will remain like that until a couple of weeks before harvest or even until harvest since we have plants mixed in the same room with different flora times, so this may be a nice test enviroment, as planned. The CO2 has a peak of 1500+ when lights start and progresively drops to 800-900 during the 12hours period. The CO2 is obtained with fermentation . During dark hours the CO2 is stored in balloons and released when lights are on (CO2 test was good, CO2 tank coming soon). Air is recirculated through the ventilation system so there are minimal loses, CO2 never drops below 750 when venting.

Im growing now under 400HPS: Delahaze, Chemdog, AK-47, Cheese, and some Critical + hybrids, they have 3 weeks of flora and 3 days. No training, switched to flora at 25-30cm height.
Also growing with 6 days into bloom under MarsII hydro 1200: Critical +, Autoblueberry (with some nice buds already), Super Skunk, Matanuska and 2 unknown seeds from buds we smoked . Switched to flora at 30-40cm height
Each group vegs and blooms under different lights, but we also separated 4 mothers and changed them from LED to 250HPS grolux bloom-flora , they suffered for a couple days but now they look great: moby dick, jack herer, dragon and chocolope.

I planned this room as a testing and learning place, im adding an aerofarm and a aquafarm from GH that i bought from a friend and its just going to be a lot of fun. Anything you need let me know

I was thinking about some CXB3070 with HLG-185H-C1400, 4 COBs per driver and as many COBs as needed. But that Vero 29 3K V2.0 sounds great, i dont want to sound lazy, but what COB distribution would you build for my particular conditions (1mx1m, CO2, etc) for either CXB and Vero 29 3K V2.0?
If you ask me, considering how fast LEDs are improving i rather get the bang for the buck and then give away or sell the LEDs when better ones come. I havent done all my homework yet, but if i can start buying asap some of the parts that will take longer to arrive it would be great.

Im really enjoying this forum, keep it up!

PS: Does the stepping of the COB influence the plants? Should the smallest step be used if available?

Steps are about art.

How close a color match are a pair of LEDs? They throw them into bins, based on this and other considerations.

And they are not built into the chip or anything that I thought. They are calculated for human vision. At the Step 2 ring, of the David MacAdam ellipse on the color charts, we can't tell the difference. At step 5 anyone can see the difference.

Plants like broad spectrum, so I went with 3 step. A little bit of frequency difference for less $$.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacAdam_ellipse

vitamin_green_inc · Apr 11, 2015

Looks good in here :weed:

You should use something other than your hand when doing a size reference I think. Put a water bottle or Febreeze can behind the cola and hold it from the top! Lol everyone's hands are a little different :eyesmoke:

Pantar · Apr 11, 2015

vitamin_green_inc said:
Looks good in here
You should use something other than your hand when doing a size reference I think. Put a water bottle or Febreeze can behind the cola and hold it from the top! Lol everyone's hands are a little different

True, from the base of my index finger to my pinky its 7,5cm

Once they stop enlarging ill add some more pictures with proper reference, the main goal is to check if "some varieties are fluffier and take longer to finish" with 30ºC temps.

testiclees · Apr 19, 2015

Flower room plants are now one month under the optic vero 360. Photo above taken today
Photo below taken 12 days ago.

The plant on the right didn't get a gulp of Super Thrive, rather it was placed on a riser!
The plant on the left which is 7 weeks 13/11 is sporting quite a few pre nanners. Not sure of how to proceed.

Last grow I had a JackBerry x Mad Scientist that broke out in nanners at week 10. She finished up fine. Splendid strain.

As far as canopy spacing goes check out the center plant (upper pic). It is about 12" under the center of the light and its' posture and color looks as if the intensity is no problem

testiclees · Apr 20, 2015

Pantar said:
Hello guys,
I need some help from those who know more.
I grow with average 1200PPM CO2.
Seems like 1500µmoles/m2/s and 30ºC is a nice spot, my question is, when im measuring lux under my HPS, how many should i give to the plants to reach 1500µmoles/m2/s, 125000lux? I never give more than 80-90k and im using CO2.
Another thing that im worried about are the VPD charts, they say 80% humidity is fine for 30ºC, but in most grow charts they usually recommend much lower RH specially during flowering. Is it just because of the molds? Can i go with high humidity, or should i stick to 40%-60%RH in flowering?
Anyone has some charts for soil/hydro? Im a chart whore.

Bro,

You might find this presenter's CO2 chart interesting. He is Haifa fertilizer scientist talking about efficacy of CO2 supplementation. He states that above 1000 is wasted.

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=CZFkxvWTP2o

Pantar · Apr 20, 2015

testiclees said:
Bro,

You might find this presenter's CO2 chart interesting. He is Haifa fertilizer scientist talking about efficacy of CO2 supplementation. He states that above 1000 is wasted.

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=CZFkxvWTP2o

Great video, im watching it now. I try to stay below 1200, for hard caps i rather follow more mj focused studies though, some plants or even strains accept more irradiance/CO2 than others.

Pantar · Apr 20, 2015

Some pictures of the autoblueberry, i dont think shes growing much more.

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